MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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monarchmason
Posts
288
Joined
5/24/2022
Location
Nevada City, CA US
1/27/2025 4:46pm

Whole lotta talk about crab bikes without naming the bikes by their one true name… 

6
4
1/27/2025 5:42pm
Eoin wrote:
Orbea taking a step back from headset cable routing is a bigger deal to me than their DH bike!I was one click from ordering a Wild...

Orbea taking a step back from headset cable routing is a bigger deal to me than their DH bike!

I was one click from ordering a Wild, but after seeing the heaset in the flesh and reading the horrendous reports on forums I just couldn't do it. They quite litterally have the worst headset routing implementation (knockblock that breaks and knocks your spacers out, dedicated spacers + dedicated stem, need to disconnect your brake hose to get rid of all that stuff and mount an adaptor for a regular stem, horrendous looking cable angles to get into the headset no matter what you do).

Buddy of mine works for an mtb brand that did headset routing and they saw a noticeable dip in sales on these models. They’ve pivoted back...

Buddy of mine works for an mtb brand that did headset routing and they saw a noticeable dip in sales on these models. They’ve pivoted back on a newer model. Not sure if they’ve seen better success with that model but it will be interesting to see. My wife has a repeater and the headset routing has been a nightmare. 

You can say your buddy works at Propain it's okay. 

Tell them parts need to be available in the US. 

4
1/27/2025 6:45pm
 There's also this in the regular bike catalog. The text which has had a filter applied, when copied, spits out this: R.DERAILL. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250-12 GS shadow+SHIFTLEV...
image 70.png?VersionId=YEObq4UelPeO2QvjsnL0bEKZrP

 

There's also this in the regular bike catalog.

 

The text which has had a filter applied, when copied, spits out this:

 

R.DERAILL. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250-12 GS shadow+

SHIFTLEV. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250

CRANKSET Shimano XTR M9200-12 Carbon 32T

BOTTOM BR. Shimano MT900 pressfit PA29 MTB

SPROCKET Shimano XTR M9200-12 / 9-45

CHAIN Shimano M9100-12

 

So that's Shimano's first(?) carbon cranks confirmed?

And the brake name is in full view, the new protos we've seen aren't saint? M9220 seems it would be the 4 piston variant.

JanS wrote:

You just made that up, right? 

No.

Technically, not Shimano's first carbon crankset: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34227

It would be their first carbon MTB crankset, though.

3
boozed
Posts
650
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
1/27/2025 7:15pm
Eoin wrote:
Orbea taking a step back from headset cable routing is a bigger deal to me than their DH bike!I was one click from ordering a Wild...

Orbea taking a step back from headset cable routing is a bigger deal to me than their DH bike!

I was one click from ordering a Wild, but after seeing the heaset in the flesh and reading the horrendous reports on forums I just couldn't do it. They quite litterally have the worst headset routing implementation (knockblock that breaks and knocks your spacers out, dedicated spacers + dedicated stem, need to disconnect your brake hose to get rid of all that stuff and mount an adaptor for a regular stem, horrendous looking cable angles to get into the headset no matter what you do).

Buddy of mine works for an mtb brand that did headset routing and they saw a noticeable dip in sales on these models. They’ve pivoted back...

Buddy of mine works for an mtb brand that did headset routing and they saw a noticeable dip in sales on these models. They’ve pivoted back on a newer model. Not sure if they’ve seen better success with that model but it will be interesting to see. My wife has a repeater and the headset routing has been a nightmare. 

A collection of the Australian Scott importer's franchisees abandoned the brand entirely about a year or two ago because sales of the current models were "bad for business".  Quite a fall considering the Spark was once the most common bike around here.  Innovating its way out of the MTB market apparently... anyway further discussion about Scott specifically might belong more in the "will more companies be shutting down..." thread than here.

9
1
1/27/2025 9:07pm
Primoz wrote:
Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't...

Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't do much to change the anti rise. Therefore the floating brake arm solutions. And as noted, you can test and tune the effect of it with a setup that Neko has. It's probably there as a test or proof of concept, not necessarily as an improvement or a necessity. 

AndehM wrote:
Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and...

Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and grime, and they have always been in a disgusting state whenever I've serviced the bearings on the 3 4-bar bikes I've owned.  I recall reading somewhere that bushings are ideal for locations that consistently see small angle rotations, where bearings are better for larger angles (so that the bearings actually move further in the race).  Main pivot and rocker/upper link - absolutely bearings.  Rear pivot - bushings.  I mean, a lot of brands are going with flex stays back there, so clearly a bearing isn't really necessary.

It's been done. Rocky, Banshee and others have experimented with bushings. They all creaked worse than a rusty shopping cart after a while... or immediately depending how lucky you were.

 

15
metadave
Posts
1244
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
Revelstoke, BC CA
1/27/2025 9:08pm Edited Date/Time 1/27/2025 9:09pm
its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at...

its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at sea otter too. 

jonkranked wrote:

34 and 36 going reverse Arch too? 

I've also heard rumors about a new fork that's similar to a current offering but different and will run beside the current model

6
Primoz
Posts
4539
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
1/27/2025 10:29pm
Primoz wrote:
Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't...

Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't do much to change the anti rise. Therefore the floating brake arm solutions. And as noted, you can test and tune the effect of it with a setup that Neko has. It's probably there as a test or proof of concept, not necessarily as an improvement or a necessity. 

AndehM wrote:
Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and...

Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and grime, and they have always been in a disgusting state whenever I've serviced the bearings on the 3 4-bar bikes I've owned.  I recall reading somewhere that bushings are ideal for locations that consistently see small angle rotations, where bearings are better for larger angles (so that the bearings actually move further in the race).  Main pivot and rocker/upper link - absolutely bearings.  Rear pivot - bushings.  I mean, a lot of brands are going with flex stays back there, so clearly a bearing isn't really necessary.

Any time you don't have full rotation (or slow rotation) a bushing is the better option. Technically bushing should be better for all pivots.

Two problems. We riders don't want the suspension being stiff and/or binding and we don't want the bike to clack around. Bushing require quite a bit more clearance (technically) vs. what a bearing needs to function (clearance of bearings is in the range of microns to hundreths of a mm when not axially preloaded, and bearings technically should be axially preloaded for best performance, which is a topic of discussion in another thread). That will make the axle in the bushing clack around when the loading of it changes direction.

Even with some clearance a bushing will usually be a bit more tight or will have more friction vs. what a bearing is like - case in point, try to move your shock when bolted to the frame only by one of the two eyelets. If you have a bearing mount on one side, it's the best way to actually compare the two variants - you can hardly move the bushing side vs. the shock falling down on the bearing side (and making a hole in the paint with the LSC adjuster knob -_- ).

O-ring supported/tightened bushings could possibly handle the clearance issue, but yeah, as @CuddlyToast said, it's been done and and abandoned. Besides Rocky and Banshee I know Ibis also used to do it (first Ripmo?) and I know Scott did it with the first Horst Link Genius (first modern one, not the pull shock one), but I'm not sure they abandoned it actually. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't given how lightness focused their bikes are.

8
nsp234
Posts
84
Joined
9/15/2016
Location
CH
1/28/2025 1:17am Edited Date/Time 1/28/2025 5:29am
Primoz wrote:
Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't...

Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't do much to change the anti rise. Therefore the floating brake arm solutions. And as noted, you can test and tune the effect of it with a setup that Neko has. It's probably there as a test or proof of concept, not necessarily as an improvement or a necessity. 

AndehM wrote:
Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and...

Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and grime, and they have always been in a disgusting state whenever I've serviced the bearings on the 3 4-bar bikes I've owned.  I recall reading somewhere that bushings are ideal for locations that consistently see small angle rotations, where bearings are better for larger angles (so that the bearings actually move further in the race).  Main pivot and rocker/upper link - absolutely bearings.  Rear pivot - bushings.  I mean, a lot of brands are going with flex stays back there, so clearly a bearing isn't really necessary.

Primoz wrote:
Any time you don't have full rotation (or slow rotation) a bushing is the better option. Technically bushing should be better for all pivots.Two problems. We...

Any time you don't have full rotation (or slow rotation) a bushing is the better option. Technically bushing should be better for all pivots.

Two problems. We riders don't want the suspension being stiff and/or binding and we don't want the bike to clack around. Bushing require quite a bit more clearance (technically) vs. what a bearing needs to function (clearance of bearings is in the range of microns to hundreths of a mm when not axially preloaded, and bearings technically should be axially preloaded for best performance, which is a topic of discussion in another thread). That will make the axle in the bushing clack around when the loading of it changes direction.

Even with some clearance a bushing will usually be a bit more tight or will have more friction vs. what a bearing is like - case in point, try to move your shock when bolted to the frame only by one of the two eyelets. If you have a bearing mount on one side, it's the best way to actually compare the two variants - you can hardly move the bushing side vs. the shock falling down on the bearing side (and making a hole in the paint with the LSC adjuster knob -_- ).

O-ring supported/tightened bushings could possibly handle the clearance issue, but yeah, as @CuddlyToast said, it's been done and and abandoned. Besides Rocky and Banshee I know Ibis also used to do it (first Ripmo?) and I know Scott did it with the first Horst Link Genius (first modern one, not the pull shock one), but I'm not sure they abandoned it actually. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't given how lightness focused their bikes are.

Screenshot 2025-01-28 at 10-20-36 Ancillotti bikes Screenshot 2025-01-28 at 10-21-06 Ancillotti bikes.png?VersionId=YpHPeG0j4uL6S7DlIvAxsWhOsVE
Ancillotti did bushings as well, even on the main pivot. I believe they still do. A buddy of mine had one. He needed to break the bushings in, so I believe they come quite tight from the factory and then kind of grind themselves to the right tolerances. He was (is) rather sloppy with bike care, but the bike never creaked or so. 
Anecdotal, I know, but could hint that with the right execution bushings could work...

Edit: just got called out: a) by first friend not approving being called sloppy, b) by second friend wondering how I could have missed the noises coming from that bike... 😅

23
luisgutrod
Posts
334
Joined
5/8/2017
Location
Paris FR
1/28/2025 1:22am
Primoz wrote:
Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't...

Rear axle pivots, either faux bar or Horst link, are notorious for barely rotating at all going through the travel. It's quite possible your solution wouldn't do much to change the anti rise. Therefore the floating brake arm solutions. And as noted, you can test and tune the effect of it with a setup that Neko has. It's probably there as a test or proof of concept, not necessarily as an improvement or a necessity. 

AndehM wrote:
Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and...

Tangentially related, but it annoys me that most 4-bar designs run bearings in that rear pivot instead of bushings.  That location gets showered with water and grime, and they have always been in a disgusting state whenever I've serviced the bearings on the 3 4-bar bikes I've owned.  I recall reading somewhere that bushings are ideal for locations that consistently see small angle rotations, where bearings are better for larger angles (so that the bearings actually move further in the race).  Main pivot and rocker/upper link - absolutely bearings.  Rear pivot - bushings.  I mean, a lot of brands are going with flex stays back there, so clearly a bearing isn't really necessary.

Primoz wrote:
Any time you don't have full rotation (or slow rotation) a bushing is the better option. Technically bushing should be better for all pivots.Two problems. We...

Any time you don't have full rotation (or slow rotation) a bushing is the better option. Technically bushing should be better for all pivots.

Two problems. We riders don't want the suspension being stiff and/or binding and we don't want the bike to clack around. Bushing require quite a bit more clearance (technically) vs. what a bearing needs to function (clearance of bearings is in the range of microns to hundreths of a mm when not axially preloaded, and bearings technically should be axially preloaded for best performance, which is a topic of discussion in another thread). That will make the axle in the bushing clack around when the loading of it changes direction.

Even with some clearance a bushing will usually be a bit more tight or will have more friction vs. what a bearing is like - case in point, try to move your shock when bolted to the frame only by one of the two eyelets. If you have a bearing mount on one side, it's the best way to actually compare the two variants - you can hardly move the bushing side vs. the shock falling down on the bearing side (and making a hole in the paint with the LSC adjuster knob -_- ).

O-ring supported/tightened bushings could possibly handle the clearance issue, but yeah, as @CuddlyToast said, it's been done and and abandoned. Besides Rocky and Banshee I know Ibis also used to do it (first Ripmo?) and I know Scott did it with the first Horst Link Genius (first modern one, not the pull shock one), but I'm not sure they abandoned it actually. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't given how lightness focused their bikes are.

my 2016 knolly warden developed quite significant stiction at the bushings.. lets say that foul weather required a lot of maintenance.. it was fine when freshly serviced but it would get to feel like shit quicker than bearings, may be I had shitty bushings , dont know.. 

3
Jakub_G
Posts
352
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
1/28/2025 4:31am Edited Date/Time 1/28/2025 4:35am
It's been done. Rocky, Banshee and others have experimented with bushings. They all creaked worse than a rusty shopping cart after a while... or immediately depending...

It's been done. Rocky, Banshee and others have experimented with bushings. They all creaked worse than a rusty shopping cart after a while... or immediately depending how lucky you were.

 

He was talking about horst link only, nicolai had been using it for years, mine has it, doesn't require any attention and is creak free, only if you overtighten it it can wear faster and obviously increase friction. It's absolutely right place for bushing, just like shock eyelet is. Ancilotti as posted above use them in all pivots and there are no complaint around.

2
RaggedEdge
Posts
83
Joined
12/5/2017
Location
Austin, TX US
1/28/2025 6:08am

Dave Turner had bushing on his Turner Bikes and they worked great in Austin (mainly dry riding and plenty of creek crossings). I had an O2 and 5Spot which were some of my favorite frames.

5
ballz
Posts
473
Joined
7/30/2024
Location
Ouagadougou EH
1/28/2025 7:16am
Sjames88 wrote:
Looks like the new X2 is almost production ready.

Looks like the new X2 is almost production ready. IMG 4227 0

its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at...

its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at sea otter too. 

Any idea what they are improving with the new 36 chassis? The 21/23 chassis hasn't been around for long, has it?

1
Simcik
Posts
426
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Loma, CO US
1/28/2025 7:18am
ballz wrote:

Any idea what they are improving with the new 36 chassis? The 21/23 chassis hasn't been around for long, has it?

American Rhetoric: Movie Speech from Top Gun - Charlie's Briefing on the  MiGs
My guess

17
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
375
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
1/28/2025 8:05am

It took 17 hours for a Turner Homer to mention pivot bushings… What a time to be alive. 

10
FaahkEet
Posts
104
Joined
3/12/2023
Location
Falls Church, VA US
1/28/2025 8:11am

I replaced my shock end bushings with needle bearings and the suspension is just smoother. Been done on 3 different bikes, but all Crab Link so may be different with other suspension designs.

7
1
haen
Posts
105
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
1/28/2025 8:25am
Sjames88 wrote:
Looks like the new X2 is almost production ready.

Looks like the new X2 is almost production ready. IMG 4227 0

its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at...

its all ready, along with a new 34 and 36 chassis and air spring. Maybe they will even show the new inverted prototype DH fork at sea otter too. 

ballz wrote:

Any idea what they are improving with the new 36 chassis? The 21/23 chassis hasn't been around for long, has it?

There are photos earlier in this thread of the new 34 being used an XC race. It has a conventional arch with sections removed for a more conservative generative design vibe than the new 32. I expect the same thing for the 36. 

1
smelly
Posts
214
Joined
3/7/2016
Location
Colorado Springs, CO US
1/28/2025 8:29am
RaggedEdge wrote:
Dave Turner had bushing on his Turner Bikes and they worked great in Austin (mainly dry riding and plenty of creek crossings). I had an O2...

Dave Turner had bushing on his Turner Bikes and they worked great in Austin (mainly dry riding and plenty of creek crossings). I had an O2 and 5Spot which were some of my favorite frames.

Was gonna post about my Turner bushings. Was not a good choice in the muddy northeast. Worked fine when fresh and clean, but I was taking apart the pivots for a clean and grease every month. 

Sick bikes anyway. That 5 spot was 15 years ahead of its time. 

4
Eae903
Posts
354
Joined
10/20/2023
Location
Laramie, WY US
1/28/2025 9:34am
TheFBI wrote:

Back to rumours : a major suspension player is making USD fork

Bumping this spicy rumor. Hoping more gossip to be teased about it. 

Hearing it's Cane Creek, a big travel enduro fork. 

7
sspomer
Posts
6047
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
1/28/2025 10:10am

custom YT decoy with intend goods on it for markus flossmann

8
TimBud
Posts
530
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
1/28/2025 10:39am Edited Date/Time 1/28/2025 10:40am

Did Canyon just drop something new.

Or am I just that uninterested in them that this has previously passed me by:

IMG 0923

1
5
nicasucksdude
Posts
45
Joined
1/30/2024
Location
Salt Lake City, UT US
1/28/2025 10:41am
TimBud wrote:
Did Canyon just drop something new.Or am I just that uninterested in them that this has previously passed me by:

Did Canyon just drop something new.

Or am I just that uninterested in them that this has previously passed me by:

IMG 0923

it's a proto, FMD was on it last year

2
TimBud
Posts
530
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
1/28/2025 10:53am

Oh right 😂

I don’t follow FMD either.

My disinterest has in both is stronger than I thought 😳😅

3
3
sspomer
Posts
6047
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
1/28/2025 11:19am

troy brosnan won MSA on that bike fwiw.

24
TimBud
Posts
530
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
1/28/2025 11:31am
sspomer wrote:

troy brosnan won MSA on that bike fwiw.

😂 Well I can honestly blame Chris Ball and WB that I missed that one.

17
2
Uncle Cliffy
Posts
375
Joined
3/11/2010
Location
Medford, OR US
1/28/2025 11:54am
TimBud wrote:

Oh right 😂

I don’t follow FMD either.

My disinterest has in both is stronger than I thought 😳😅

Tell me you’re not a Tahnee Seagrave fan, without telling me you’re not a Tahnee Seagrave fan…

4
TimBud
Posts
530
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
1/28/2025 12:29pm

Tell me you’re not a Tahnee Seagrave fan, without telling me you’re not a Tahnee Seagrave fan…

Not continue my digression any further, but I am a Tahnee fan. I still missed all the Canyon hype, so I'll blame the almighty algorithm for that. I get mostly mechanic stuff, F1, Brandog, MB Cyclery with a healthy dose of bee_kay77 and watchcwgo.

I'd love to see what Tahnee could do away from FMD. In my biased opinion it worked incredibly well for the Athertons but not so well for her... Maybe it's because mum and dad weren't part of the team. 

1
7
earleb
Posts
351
Joined
3/23/2023
Location
North Vancouver, BC CA
1/28/2025 12:54pm

Bushing require tight tolerances and proper maintenance. 

The cycling industry is crappy at tight tolerances. 

Most cyclist are crappy at maintenance. 

It's a win win resulting in the horrible reputation that bushings have.

Like press fit bearings, they are the correct engineering solution. But that would require the bike industry to stop being crappy. 

31
1/28/2025 1:17pm
TimBud wrote:
Did Canyon just drop something new.Or am I just that uninterested in them that this has previously passed me by:

Did Canyon just drop something new.

Or am I just that uninterested in them that this has previously passed me by:

IMG 0923

Interesting that Luca has a big ass Boa logo on top of his helmet. I don't think I've seen Boa do individual sponsorship deals like that. 

4
w4s
Posts
275
Joined
9/2/2009
Location
Verdi, NV US
1/28/2025 1:54pm

Interesting that Luca has a big ass Boa logo on top of his helmet. I don't think I've seen Boa do individual sponsorship deals like that. 

Boa sponsors quite a few individual athletes as well as teams.

https://www.boafit.com/en-us/athletes

2
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