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The Vital MTB Crew
How much do you know about capitalism?
talking about electronic and suspension, i feel it's a waste of money for most, correct me if i'm wrong, but spending that much on a flight attendant suspension system is pretty dumb in my book, when, with the same money i can get a custom tuned coil shock and same, a fork with sized bushing and assembled properly, maybe even tuned.
( i'm sure you've seen plenty of dry/ caked with grease/ tight bushings RS forks ).
so having a fancy electronic lock out on a "stock" fork and shock to me will always be worse than spending the same and having better quality and re-worked suspensions.
Anecdote, but a friend of mine has had 3 warranty replacements on an XO derailleur so far.
1 for the clutch failing, 2 for the software being bricked. He bought the groupset as soon as it was available to him and has had it since January IIRC.
Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you up.
I would say most of the folks here wouldn't be mad if the bikes were designed with mechanical routing holes in the frame. If you're a brand loyalist who prefers mechanical groupos you'd for sure have a sour taste in your mouth too.
I wonder what the weight penalty is for adding internal routing to a carbon frame. A lot of the penetrations aren't in low stress areas, so there must be some more material to account for it.
Wow cables and frame ports are nearly as touchy a subject as religion and politics now huh.
You’re either a believer or you’re not. Just make sure you judge and condemn everyone else right
I am just gonna take a guess that you work at SRAM lol.
I would never insult someone on their politics or religion. 😉
I guess the holes in the frame do add some weight and cost to the frame, but since they still need to do it for the rear brake and dropper post, its not a huge difference to also have the routing for a gear cable. Maybe there could be some guides on the outside of the frame to allow external routing of the cables?
If there are no cable ports frame/bike prices should be cheaper right......RIGHT?
fml
I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up, especially compared to older AXS, which was excellent. Sure, you get used to it if you're doing it every day, but it requires enough App/random information access that you might not have out on the trail if something goes wrong to actually make it shift properly again. For example, we have it on a fleet of demo E-bikes and we have checked the install of the drivetrain multiple times to the instructions in this video: https://www.sram.com/en/learn/eagle-transmission-welcome-guide/installation-overview
However, people using the bikes then smack the derailleur somehow, causing it to shift out of place, even if everything is properly torqued. Then the whole system is game over. There's nothing to keep the derailleur in place other than a knurled plate between the frame and derailleur that will still move under proper torque against the frame and the derailleur no longer has proper B-tension. The people demoing these bikes are not experienced techs. Its just doesn't work any more because they put it in the back of their SUV to transport it and bumped it hard enough to make it go out of adjustment even if you've followed every step. Making it cheaper and more accessible I can only see causing more issues.
I've also had to drill out multiple axles because people who thought they knew what they were doing/had the experience needed to install their own group sets ended up having their axled seize in the derailleur bolt because everything can rotate together. So far, yes it shifts very well, and when its working, its excellent and I've used it on these demo bikes for months and had great personal experiences, but in a real world setting used by normal people, it's pretty unimpressive and down right an issue so far.
Anecdotes are not data and it sounds like I'm in the minority but I got mine in April of '23 and installed it and set it up myself. I've put 2,500 miles and almost 750k' of descending on it and and haven't touched it since then other than to check torque after the first few rides. I swapped the chain out for an XX chain at about 2k miles.
It's been flawless and I have beaten the ever-loving crap out of it, the skid plates on the mech are a little ragged-looking but that's just cosmetic.
(In case it's relevant I got an XX mech, X0 cassette and chain and swapped out the Transmission pod for the the Eagle pod because I hated it. I used nonT-Type cranks and chainring because I'm vain and think the T-Type cranks are ugly).
I think the "Has a proper bike rack and understands the basics of how things work crew" is unfortunately smaller than some bike companies hope or think it is when they're expanding a platform so quickly. I guess I should note, I live in an area that usually has more wallet than understanding so I may be in a minority area, but it hasn't been great so far unless the rider has a greater understanding of what they're using and how to take care of it. And you'd think that would be good for bike shops, but when you have a wave of E-bike and headset routing issues on new bikes piling up because companies haven't thought after service through, throwing another log on the fire just jams things up so you can't do regular service work. It feels like every day I have another 3-4 bike either new or out of the box that have developed issues with new and cool tech that take time away from actually doing jobs that make service departments money because the bike is a month old and is broken.
I really don't understand the wireless hate. It's no worse than cable mechs in my experience. If anything j like it a little more and find it shifts faster. Less cables look nicer. It's just the evolution of bikes, no reason to hate it.
1) Worst ergonomics ever? The pod is fine... literally a button for up and down and plenty adjustable. Took me ten mins to dial in and never thought about it again.
2) Transmission clutch is great, completely silent.. old AXS quite literally known for bad clutch issues...
3) Weight is fine, cranks are a little heavy but there's other crank options (which I use). Everything else is on par with XT (derailleur heavier, cassette lighter, balances out)
The pricing is frustrating which is understandably why it gets the hate. But saying the performance isn't best in class completely fried. It's the best drivetrain you can get right now.
If T-type sucked I would say so. I can give two sh*ts about defending SRAM (they f*cked me over plenty before..). But I gotta give credit where it's due. Wouldn't put anything else on a race bike if I had the choice/funds.
Big brands know you were going to buy a Raaw or a Forbidden. You think they’re trying to compete with those brands? Heck no. They’re happy to let them get in on the niche end of the game. Big brands don’t have time to chase trends. They make big fancy bikes for people with teslas and rivianz. Dakine Fanny and pit vipers and discretionary income. A couple kids on the way that the big brands want to get into the Fam asap. At least half the people at the big brands don’t even ride. They come from tech and vacuum companies and have business degrees and aren’t driven by emotions regarding Cable Routing. And that’s fine. These bikes are a lot of shops bread and butter. The cable routing (or lack thereof) isn’t about you and the metal bike you wrench on yourself, it’s about a way bigger ecosystem than most of us can even catch a glimpse of…
You shouldn’t be complaining about the divide. Ultimately your metal bike with external routing will be psyched to have the trickle down that the pointy end of Bike Development will eventually pass on to all of us. Gotta grow the industry at all points on the spectrum to have a healthy one.
Ill admit I own and love the GX Transmission, it's been great for me, but it seems that SRAM is actively leaving performance on the table by not producing a cable version. Is there any technical reason they couldn't produce a mechanical one that is lighter and therefore performs even better? It would be cheaper and with all of the benefits aside from having to maintain the shifter cable adjustment and well, maybe you wouldn't be able to stand on it. Seems like that would have a pretty broad appeal.
.. I'm pretty sure most of those people with all the coolest new stuff are all about the eebz these days. Based on the ratio of e bikes to pedal bikes I've been seeing lately, I just wonder how big the market even is for ~$10k pedal bikes anymore.
17th September release date
I love the irony in this thread. “Tech rumors and INNOVATION,” and the lot of you are against it.
These darn whippersnappers running these bike companies are taking away my mechanical shifting! Wah!
I'm stoked for actual innovation that's useful, but it seems like we're getting stuff getting pushed out because company's can only add 6% better (enter advantage here) for so long before they have to give into gimmicks that don't have a huge advantage over the older stuff but the tech changes so it must be better? I know they need new product to see more stuff, but is it actually better? Questionable, but it is more expensive and makes you need a new frame and 300$ chain.
Nothing prevents you from "standing" on a cable actuated derailleur. No clutch needed, it will just move out of the way. The cable pulls it inwards, but does not prevent it from moving inwards more. It's the electric drive in the axs variant that requires a clutch to prevent the cogs stripping when suffering an impact.
I'd argue it's more human nature, people want 'new' and new is wireless. Give Santa Cruz a reason to save 55c per frame for not having internal guides and they'll take it.
I think one of the biggest issues is that wireless only locks you into SRAM currently. It's crazy that they're releasing these before Shimano has a wireless drivetrain out.
Lets say the next version of SRAM wireless has a recall issue, or a plant burns down, or literally anything to disrupt a single supply chain. Congrats, you now have 0 bikes to sell.
I think wireless drivetrains are the future, and they'll become incredibly good eventually, but to abandon all legacy support already, well that's just crazy.
I'm not anti innovation, but I am pro choice. Having choices removed is a step backwards IMO.
amen to that!
I think there is also a cost/time saving in assembly of the bike with a wireless drivetrain, from a production POV it's probably more repeatable and efficient to fit a SRAM transmission on the production line. In my experience manufacturing engineering departments tend to want to influence product development to suit their needs, often with detrimental effects for the customer in terms of product features.
No one is forcing you to buy a wireless only bike, so far there is one option and we know an aluminium one is coming as the lower spec version, that one is cable actuated, if SC do bring an option that’s wireless only then no one is going to force you to buy that either.
New niche brands are popping up everywhere that are steel, cnc ally, and building a brand on simplicity and reliability , it makes sense that you’ll have the opposite end of the spectrum; carbon and wireless only.
This forum has really become as uncle cliffy said, ironic and in my opinion awfully negative lately.
"I think one of the biggest issues is that wireless only locks you into SRAM currently. It's crazy that they're releasing these before Shimano has a wireless drivetrain out. "
My personal theory is that Shimano told the bike brands that their wireless drivetrain would be out 6 months ago and it's been delayed. The bike manufacturers got tired of holding inventory back waiting on it and are releasing them now with SRAM only.
It’s so nice to see so many opinions being shared. Snore.
Here’s a frame drawing I saw today.
It seems pretty likely that Shimano will have 1x wireless coming later this year - they pretty much confirmed that at the GRX Di2 launch (where there was only 2x available). The last gen versions of GRX 1x were compatible with MTB cassettes, and the current limitation (I believe) is that Di2 is coordinated through the front derailleur, not the rear.
As for wireless only frames - do we know this is the case on all carbon frames, or possibly just the 'CC' models? If you look at the offerings from the big manufacturers, often the aluminum models are coming with low to mid tier drivetrains (GX/XT and below) and the carbon models are mostly with high end options (XT/GX and above). If SRAM only makes 'new' high end wireless and Shimano has an option (or replacement? soon) for wireless XT/XTR, then they aren't selling carbon models with a need for a cable port. That's not to say they are right or wrong for doing so, it's just how they spec their high end bikes.
So does that also apply to headset cable routing?