Not to muddy the waters, but I wanted to chip in my 2c, been running a stumpy Evo for 3 years now. Killed the dpx2 that came with it in 2 months. Put a float x in as a replacement and got it to suck air after 6months. Rebuilt it a few times then got a DVO jade off PB buy/sell used. Have been on that for 1.5 seasons with 30+ trips to nor-cal bike parks… I’ve only pulled it apart to do some shim tuning, zero issues with it and I’m 215lbs currently, and a solid rear wheel durability tester (Ive destroying rear wheels on a regular basis for the last 25years of riding MTB’s) As someone that has had a hard time keeping rear shocks alive regardless of the bike, yoke or not, I am of the opinion that there’s more to it than yokes being the root of all evil. Tol stacks are real, and most engineers that I’ve worked with over the years (am one as well) do a sh*tty job of taking actual production measurement data and feeding it back into the tol stack. You can design the best product in the world with a perfect looking tolerance stack based on print nominals and RMS calcs but it’s a different animal when you take real world measurement data off manufactured parts and feed 3.29sigma std dev numbers back into a tolerance stack. What was nominal is usually not nominal anymore and things tend to drift outside of LMC or MMC situations. Long story short, don’t blame the design, blame the engineer…
Blaming the design vs. blaming the engineer is more or less the same thing. If I learned something at work is that you REALLY need to know what you are doing, and, even more important, how you are doing it. It is the how that will determine what kind of tolerances you can prescribe to a part and that will define how things will fit together and in turn how things will work. I'd say this is the main issue, designing things without knowing how they will be produced (and I mean to the minute details of the processes), what the methods mean for part manipulation and resulting tolerances (and other properties) and how everything fits together.
One problem with yokes though, you might be designing your frames and miiiiiight be able to hold tolerances nice and tight or even design a frame to take up the slack with loose tolerances (Santa Cruz pivot hardware being a good case of this, if the collet axles work as intended of course), but there is still the question mark of what do the shock do? How tight are the tolerances on shock eyelets? Can one eyelet be misaligned to the other one? Can there be other problems?
Based on the production processes I'd bet on the frames being the problematic part of the equation most of the times, but maybe there are cases when they are not actually the issue?
And all this time I thought it was just me blowing up rear hubs! Glad to know I’m not alone.
I recently built up two...
And all this time I thought it was just me blowing up rear hubs! Glad to know I’m not alone.
I recently built up two sets of wheels with DT 350s and they’ve been great so far 🤞
Speaking of hubs, just got an email from OneUp announcing their new hubs. They look pretty promising and I’ve had good experiences with many of their products.
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which...
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which requires an additional spacer), but you cannot use a DT Swiss™ Ratchet in a OneUp Hub.
Nice to have a cheaper and trustworthy alternative, but the OneUp ratchet is 44t. If I'm upgrading from 36t, I'm still going to 54t (insert rant about 54t not already being standard fitment).
54T ratchet rings chip like mad in any high torque scenario. I'm guessing that's the reason OneUp settled on 44T.
And all this time I thought it was just me blowing up rear hubs! Glad to know I’m not alone.
I recently built up two...
And all this time I thought it was just me blowing up rear hubs! Glad to know I’m not alone.
I recently built up two sets of wheels with DT 350s and they’ve been great so far 🤞
Speaking of hubs, just got an email from OneUp announcing their new hubs. They look pretty promising and I’ve had good experiences with many of their products.
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which...
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which requires an additional spacer), but you cannot use a DT Swiss™ Ratchet in a OneUp Hub.
Nice to have a cheaper and trustworthy alternative, but the OneUp ratchet is 44t. If I'm upgrading from 36t, I'm still going to 54t (insert rant about 54t not already being standard fitment).
54T ratchet rings chip like mad in any high torque scenario. I'm guessing that's the reason OneUp settled on 44T.
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. I don't know from experience what difference this makes, though.
Anyway what's "high torque"? Nino Schurter sprinting? A legal e-bike at full boost? An illegal e-bike?
Oneup lost me when I saw they use a cassette locking as a bearing retainer - "Getting the lockring to catch the threads can be a bit finicky. Spinning the lockring backwards until it catches and drops into the start of the threads in the hub shell will help align it." Queue the home mechanics stripping those threads and writing off the hub.
Otherwise it does look good. It's quite cool what they've done with the ratchet allowing the spring to recess into it.
I wonder if they'll offer other engagement options down the line.
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed to service their hubs, but a shitty enough mechanic to do it poorly. Not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't expect it to be commonplace.
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which...
Interesting note from the product pages:
OneUp Hubs use a OneUp-specific ratchet and spring. You can use a OneUp Ratchet in your DT Swiss™ hub (which requires an additional spacer), but you cannot use a DT Swiss™ Ratchet in a OneUp Hub.
Nice to have a cheaper and trustworthy alternative, but the OneUp ratchet is 44t. If I'm upgrading from 36t, I'm still going to 54t (insert rant about 54t not already being standard fitment).
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. ...
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. I don't know from experience what difference this makes, though.
Anyway what's "high torque"? Nino Schurter sprinting? A legal e-bike at full boost? An illegal e-bike?
Has anyone tried the 54t or 60t ratchets for DT Swiss 350s off of eBay? Even if they aren't as durable, you could buy a few pairs of those for the same price as DT Swiss ratchets. The genuine DT Swiss ratchets aren't cheap.
They look good but I don't understand why more companies don't build in the ability to switch between 15mm and 20mm Boost spacing for the front...
They look good but I don't understand why more companies don't build in the ability to switch between 15mm and 20mm Boost spacing for the front hub. I9 Hydra, Spank Hex, and possibly Hope are the only ones I know of that can do that. I have 2 sets of wheels with I9 Hydra front hubs for this reason - that way I can pull a wheel off my enduro bike and use it on my DH bike if I need to.
20 mm axle requires even thinner (and weaker) bearings if you want to keep a hub axle compared to a 15 mm axle hub.
Not necessarily. Just depends on what the design goals are. If weight is uber alles, then yes that's correct, but there were and are plenty of hubs that have reasonable bearing sizes and cross compatibility. They're just not the waifs some folx are looking for. A 15/20mm hub does require different design language, and I'd wager that some companies use that as a reason for their design paths, to keep the language similar to their rears. And that looks to be the case with OneUp. Having a chonky looking front hub with all the compatibility would make the hub package look weird to the buying public. Personally, I could not care less, but I'm also a guy that took his 15mm hub and turned the end caps down to enable running the same wheel on the new 12mm fork on his cross bike. My sense of aesthetics likely doesn't match the general cycling public.
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. ...
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. I don't know from experience what difference this makes, though.
Anyway what's "high torque"? Nino Schurter sprinting? A legal e-bike at full boost? An illegal e-bike?
Has anyone tried the 54t or 60t ratchets for DT Swiss 350s off of eBay? Even if they aren't as durable, you could buy a few...
Has anyone tried the 54t or 60t ratchets for DT Swiss 350s off of eBay? Even if they aren't as durable, you could buy a few pairs of those for the same price as DT Swiss ratchets. The genuine DT Swiss ratchets aren't cheap.
Pal did and they did not work well for him. I think the finer teeth required for higher engagement star ratchet hubs in general aren't as tolerance/load forgiving as looser engagement units. In the end he went back to 36t and hasn't had an issue since. There's no question axles bend under moments, causing the teeth faces to come out of plane. A lower tooth count has a deeper root, so the teeth stay in contact better under these bending moments. Everyone thought through axles would solve this, and it mostly did. It'd be interesting to get a large sample size of through axles and hubs, then compare the outer and inner diameters of both and see what variances there are. But that's just me armchairing over here.
They look good but I don't understand why more companies don't build in the ability to switch between 15mm and 20mm Boost spacing for the front...
They look good but I don't understand why more companies don't build in the ability to switch between 15mm and 20mm Boost spacing for the front hub. I9 Hydra, Spank Hex, and possibly Hope are the only ones I know of that can do that. I have 2 sets of wheels with I9 Hydra front hubs for this reason - that way I can pull a wheel off my enduro bike and use it on my DH bike if I need to.
I use the Race Face Vault hubs for this exact reason. Just swap the end caps. Has come in handy on more than a few occasions.
20 mm axle requires even thinner (and weaker) bearings if you want to keep a hub axle compared to a 15 mm axle hub.
I’ll take wheel swap convenience over the 0.5mm in bearing thickness between a 6902 and a 61804. Never had an issue with bearing life or axleless front hubs.
Oneup lost me when I saw they use a cassette locking as a bearing retainer - "Getting the lockring to catch the threads can be a bit finicky. Spinning the lockring backwards until it catches and drops into the start of the threads in the hub shell will help align it." Queue the home mechanics stripping those threads and writing off the hub.
Otherwise it does look good. It's quite cool what they've done with the ratchet allowing the spring to recess into it.
I wonder if they'll offer other engagement options down the line.
At least it doesn't have the threaded bearing seat/drive ring face found in the 240 EXP hub. Removing that for bearing service was without question the highest torque event I've ever encountered in all my years of wrenching.
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed...
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed to service their hubs, but a shitty enough mechanic to do it poorly. Not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't expect it to be commonplace.
It's only a bearing service... Even the most hamfisted riders I know can hear a hub when it's grumbling. And when the company will sell you tools and give a great guide a lot of those guys will give it a go, because it's just a bike.
Didn't say it was a glaring issue though. Not sure where you got that idea from... it's just something I'm not interested in.
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed...
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed to service their hubs, but a shitty enough mechanic to do it poorly. Not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't expect it to be commonplace.
As a former shop mechanic who regularly had to deal with "I tried to fix it myself" clusterfucks, I think you're underestimating how many people overestimate their mechanical competency.
At least it doesn't have the threaded bearing seat/drive ring face found in the 240 EXP hub. Removing that for bearing service was without question the...
At least it doesn't have the threaded bearing seat/drive ring face found in the 240 EXP hub. Removing that for bearing service was without question the highest torque event I've ever encountered in all my years of wrenching.
No the ratchet looks like its sits directly in the hub shell... which is better right.
I have a long extender and a friend so DT Swiss drive ring removal has never been a huge issue.
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed...
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed to service their hubs, but a shitty enough mechanic to do it poorly. Not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't expect it to be commonplace.
As a former shop mechanic who regularly had to deal with "I tried to fix it myself" clusterfucks, I think you're underestimating how many people overestimate...
As a former shop mechanic who regularly had to deal with "I tried to fix it myself" clusterfucks, I think you're underestimating how many people overestimate their mechanical competency.
But youre not comparing those numbers to people who have tried and been successful. Of course youd see, and be biased in htat way, as youd only see people once they frigged up, or were in over their heads.
They are just bikes, its not rocket surgery, its only mildy more complex than lego.
These look great. Also, best product launch video I've ever seen. No bullshit.
These look great. Also, best product launch video I've ever seen. No bullshit.
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product." "Customers don't care about specs, they care about experiences."
It's just homie talking about the hub specs for 3 minutes, instead of campfire sunset B-roll and talking about the meaning of life with Christopher Walken. So much BS in the marketplace that they're able to be distinct by just being honest engineers who make better products. The narrator looks and sounds like he may have been the engineer who designed it (my brother's an ME, so I feel qualified to stereotype). Love it.
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product."...
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product." "Customers don't care about specs, they care about experiences."
It's just homie talking about the hub specs for 3 minutes, instead of campfire sunset B-roll and talking about the meaning of life with Christopher Walken. So much BS in the marketplace that they're able to be distinct by just being honest engineers who make better products. The narrator looks and sounds like he may have been the engineer who designed it (my brother's an ME, so I feel qualified to stereotype). Love it.
Lets not fan boy too hard on these
I have a V1, and V2 OneUp dropper that are not exceptions to the rule when it comes to both reliability, or standouts for OneUps customer relations. Both are known to be questionable (looking at you bushing that literally eat themselves) and any PB or NSMB review went on to claim them as the best thing since sliced bread, when PNW stuff quietly worked better, and were better to their customers.
I'll reserve any opinion on these hubs for actual long term reviews.
As a side note, I'm a fan of OneUp stuff, but those seatposts, jeez, V1 was hot garbage, V2 isnt a tonne better
I would want to go xs and it would still be longer than my dh bike.
Knollys recent sizing is just not it. Putting someone 5’6” on a bike with a 480 reach is just insane. They are either hoping to turn people off the sport or are just incredibly insecure and trying to prove something.
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product."...
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product." "Customers don't care about specs, they care about experiences."
It's just homie talking about the hub specs for 3 minutes, instead of campfire sunset B-roll and talking about the meaning of life with Christopher Walken. So much BS in the marketplace that they're able to be distinct by just being honest engineers who make better products. The narrator looks and sounds like he may have been the engineer who designed it (my brother's an ME, so I feel qualified to stereotype). Love it.
It does break those rules, but also they are just selling bike parts to bike geeks. A new hub isn't going to expand the market or bring new people into mountain biking so they are better off selling the specs and not the sizzle as the target audience does indeed care about the spec.
Most mountain bike product launches are selling to the existing market, not to non mountain bikers.
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product."...
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product." "Customers don't care about specs, they care about experiences."
It's just homie talking about the hub specs for 3 minutes, instead of campfire sunset B-roll and talking about the meaning of life with Christopher Walken. So much BS in the marketplace that they're able to be distinct by just being honest engineers who make better products. The narrator looks and sounds like he may have been the engineer who designed it (my brother's an ME, so I feel qualified to stereotype). Love it.
Well I wouldnt call oneup a company with "honest engineers who make better products".
I could go with "honest engineers who make good enough products with some obvious flaws that are sold for cheaper than competitors" though. Cases in point: dropper posts, pedals, edc tools I have owned and all of them had one bad thing that just does not make sense. Still bought though, so there's that.
Not to muddy the waters, but I wanted to chip in my 2c, been running a stumpy Evo for 3 years now. Killed the dpx2 that came with it in 2 months. Put a float x in as a replacement and got it to suck air after 6months. Rebuilt it a few times then got a DVO jade off PB buy/sell used. Have been on that for 1.5 seasons with 30+ trips to nor-cal bike parks… I’ve only pulled it apart to do some shim tuning, zero issues with it and I’m 215lbs currently, and a solid rear wheel durability tester (Ive destroying rear wheels on a regular basis for the last 25years of riding MTB’s) As someone that has had a hard time keeping rear shocks alive regardless of the bike, yoke or not, I am of the opinion that there’s more to it than yokes being the root of all evil. Tol stacks are real, and most engineers that I’ve worked with over the years (am one as well) do a sh*tty job of taking actual production measurement data and feeding it back into the tol stack. You can design the best product in the world with a perfect looking tolerance stack based on print nominals and RMS calcs but it’s a different animal when you take real world measurement data off manufactured parts and feed 3.29sigma std dev numbers back into a tolerance stack. What was nominal is usually not nominal anymore and things tend to drift outside of LMC or MMC situations. Long story short, don’t blame the design, blame the engineer…
Blaming the design vs. blaming the engineer is more or less the same thing. If I learned something at work is that you REALLY need to know what you are doing, and, even more important, how you are doing it. It is the how that will determine what kind of tolerances you can prescribe to a part and that will define how things will fit together and in turn how things will work. I'd say this is the main issue, designing things without knowing how they will be produced (and I mean to the minute details of the processes), what the methods mean for part manipulation and resulting tolerances (and other properties) and how everything fits together.
One problem with yokes though, you might be designing your frames and miiiiiight be able to hold tolerances nice and tight or even design a frame to take up the slack with loose tolerances (Santa Cruz pivot hardware being a good case of this, if the collet axles work as intended of course), but there is still the question mark of what do the shock do? How tight are the tolerances on shock eyelets? Can one eyelet be misaligned to the other one? Can there be other problems?
Based on the production processes I'd bet on the frames being the problematic part of the equation most of the times, but maybe there are cases when they are not actually the issue?
Unless it uses 3 brake pads and 2 rotors I'm not interested.
54T ratchet rings chip like mad in any high torque scenario. I'm guessing that's the reason OneUp settled on 44T.
5th season on my 240s with 54t and zero issues… only lots of miles.
A 54t ratchet has more tooth surface area to divide the load and less dead space between engagement points for the drivetrain to accelerate before engaging. I don't know from experience what difference this makes, though.
Anyway what's "high torque"? Nino Schurter sprinting? A legal e-bike at full boost? An illegal e-bike?
Eh, that doesn't seem like a glaring issue. The person in that scenario would have to be a decent enough mechanic to understand that they needed to service their hubs, but a shitty enough mechanic to do it poorly. Not saying it's impossible, just that I wouldn't expect it to be commonplace.
Has anyone tried the 54t or 60t ratchets for DT Swiss 350s off of eBay? Even if they aren't as durable, you could buy a few pairs of those for the same price as DT Swiss ratchets. The genuine DT Swiss ratchets aren't cheap.
Not necessarily. Just depends on what the design goals are. If weight is uber alles, then yes that's correct, but there were and are plenty of hubs that have reasonable bearing sizes and cross compatibility. They're just not the waifs some folx are looking for. A 15/20mm hub does require different design language, and I'd wager that some companies use that as a reason for their design paths, to keep the language similar to their rears. And that looks to be the case with OneUp. Having a chonky looking front hub with all the compatibility would make the hub package look weird to the buying public. Personally, I could not care less, but I'm also a guy that took his 15mm hub and turned the end caps down to enable running the same wheel on the new 12mm fork on his cross bike. My sense of aesthetics likely doesn't match the general cycling public.
Pal did and they did not work well for him. I think the finer teeth required for higher engagement star ratchet hubs in general aren't as tolerance/load forgiving as looser engagement units. In the end he went back to 36t and hasn't had an issue since. There's no question axles bend under moments, causing the teeth faces to come out of plane. A lower tooth count has a deeper root, so the teeth stay in contact better under these bending moments. Everyone thought through axles would solve this, and it mostly did. It'd be interesting to get a large sample size of through axles and hubs, then compare the outer and inner diameters of both and see what variances there are. But that's just me armchairing over here.
I use the Race Face Vault hubs for this exact reason. Just swap the end caps. Has come in handy on more than a few occasions.
I’ll take wheel swap convenience over the 0.5mm in bearing thickness between a 6902 and a 61804. Never had an issue with bearing life or axleless front hubs.
https://images.app.goo.gl/eK2Vpnm7PG89jeRc7
The new OneUp hubs looks like a very interesting proposition.
Oneup kept it simple with the hubs. W.
Guessing the reserve wheels will come exclusively with one ups on going forward.
At least it doesn't have the threaded bearing seat/drive ring face found in the 240 EXP hub. Removing that for bearing service was without question the highest torque event I've ever encountered in all my years of wrenching.
Warden is up. Nice colors...it's a big bike for sure.
https://knollybikes.com/en-ca/products/warden
It's only a bearing service... Even the most hamfisted riders I know can hear a hub when it's grumbling. And when the company will sell you tools and give a great guide a lot of those guys will give it a go, because it's just a bike.
Didn't say it was a glaring issue though. Not sure where you got that idea from... it's just something I'm not interested in.
457 reach in a s2/small and a 63.25 degree head angle in high. That is a burly bike.
As a former shop mechanic who regularly had to deal with "I tried to fix it myself" clusterfucks, I think you're underestimating how many people overestimate their mechanical competency.
No the ratchet looks like its sits directly in the hub shell... which is better right.
I have a long extender and a friend so DT Swiss drive ring removal has never been a huge issue.
But youre not comparing those numbers to people who have tried and been successful. Of course youd see, and be biased in htat way, as youd only see people once they frigged up, or were in over their heads.
They are just bikes, its not rocket surgery, its only mildy more complex than lego.
I was hoping for a Delirium.
I would want to go xs and it would still be longer than my dh bike.
They kept it so simple you can't put OneUp hubs on your new Knolly Warden
The launch video basically breaks every rule of modern advertising and I love it. "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle." "Don't talk about the product." "Customers don't care about specs, they care about experiences."
It's just homie talking about the hub specs for 3 minutes, instead of campfire sunset B-roll and talking about the meaning of life with Christopher Walken. So much BS in the marketplace that they're able to be distinct by just being honest engineers who make better products. The narrator looks and sounds like he may have been the engineer who designed it (my brother's an ME, so I feel qualified to stereotype). Love it.
Lets not fan boy too hard on these
I have a V1, and V2 OneUp dropper that are not exceptions to the rule when it comes to both reliability, or standouts for OneUps customer relations. Both are known to be questionable (looking at you bushing that literally eat themselves) and any PB or NSMB review went on to claim them as the best thing since sliced bread, when PNW stuff quietly worked better, and were better to their customers.
I'll reserve any opinion on these hubs for actual long term reviews.
As a side note, I'm a fan of OneUp stuff, but those seatposts, jeez, V1 was hot garbage, V2 isnt a tonne better
Knollys recent sizing is just not it. Putting someone 5’6” on a bike with a 480 reach is just insane. They are either hoping to turn people off the sport or are just incredibly insecure and trying to prove something.
It does break those rules, but also they are just selling bike parts to bike geeks. A new hub isn't going to expand the market or bring new people into mountain biking so they are better off selling the specs and not the sizzle as the target audience does indeed care about the spec.
Most mountain bike product launches are selling to the existing market, not to non mountain bikers.
Well I wouldnt call oneup a company with "honest engineers who make better products".
I could go with "honest engineers who make good enough products with some obvious flaws that are sold for cheaper than competitors" though. Cases in point: dropper posts, pedals, edc tools I have owned and all of them had one bad thing that just does not make sense. Still bought though, so there's that.