Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
@Maxipedia ”to make a whip out of shit and to make it sound too”
Thank you for this.
I agree 100%. I wrote something along those lines and ended up not posting it, fearing it would be too confrontational. Im here mostly because bikes are RAD, but, Being a foreigner, I also found so much joy learning (and ocassionaly, sharing) the different points of view, and even ways of life, that come from beeing from another continent.
The most important bike is not the one you love but the one that gets the work done.
The analogy of bike shops to restaurants is a pretty good one I think. I think the shops that will survive are the ones that offer compelling reasons for repeat customers to go back, in spite of alternative options of ordering parts online or doing your own service. Just like local small restaurants or coffee shops appeal to people (atmosphere, quality, social connections) to keep going back vs. brewing coffee/cooking at home or getting something cheaper from Starbucks or Taco Bell.
Yeah this is for sure one of the challenges of running a workshop - IMO things need to be done properly, ie cleaned, prepared and installed with the right tools etc. It costs money to do that so the customer needs to be prepared in advance, but the trade off is that they shouldn't need to come back a second time - a lot of work gets rushed or corners cut in order to "save costs", but it means the customer comes back or the shop had to re-do things which actually costs everyone even more in time and money. But those things are easier to see in hindsight
As for shimano - they have been forcing large buy-ins for years to be a dealer, and they wont give accounts to any mechanic that works from their own garage - which rules out a huge chunk of dedicated and experienced people who wouldn't get paid a decent wage in a "proper" bike shop. That's how it is here anyway
Just gotta say. Stoked to see Frameworks sell out of their latest batch of bikes in one day.
I find it to be very location dependent. It's difficult to get G-Wagon drivers here to agree to a $140 work order on a two decade old bike. When I lived in Kelowna, you could convince a homeless person to drop $600 if it was going to keep their pride and joy running. We regularly need to peer pressure customers with 10k bikes into getting their suspension done three years on.
I think Shimano is putting far too much onus on shops and individuals. We lack mechanics as the pay is shit and the customers can be difficult. We lack parts as Shimano doesn't supply them. The value proposition of bikes is wildly different to different customers. You can buy a brand new adult sized supercycle SC1800 for $150 Canadian retail pretty frequently. Why would you spend $100 on your old junker when you can replace it?
Worth noting Shimano also makes the drivetrains for these absolute turds that cannot be economically worked on. Those SIS derailleurs are legitimately designed to fall apart. SIS as a derailleur SKU has also been around for what feels like two decades? If you're going to have parts that end up in catalog for that long, just put machine head pins in the pivots instead of rivets, so they can be replaced down the line. Cues is certainly a step in the right direction with those unified pull ratios between drop bar and flat, though it still lacks repair parts as a groupset.
It kind of feels like the bike industry equivalent of "stop hitting yourself."
Comparing your new location to Kelowna - What gives? Is the area economically different than Kelowna? Or is it more of a Bike Culture thing...meaning your customers just valued their bikes and keeping them running well more in Kelowna?
Interesting read and some good thoughts here.
Im not really the target audience Since I do all my own service, More because I cant help myself - I like to understand how things work and how to get the longest life from a product I spent money on, as a bonus It's quite fun and Takes up some of my Free time, which I luckily seem to be in excess of.
Now, I have been caught busy before some Events especially during summer, so I have dropped my Bike/s at the shop/s in the past(or for warranty work eek)
It seems I have a huge problem at least In the few shops I've been to(5) The mechanic's are so unknowledgeable and I watched One of them Watching video's how to setup a mechanical drivetrain(the customer is paying for this time)
In the few times, I've had contaminated pads(they weren't even working on the brakes and i dropped it in after a ride!!!), Poorly setup/bled brakes, Bolts left loose, Wheels not dished(so bad it was basically rubbing in the stand) - drivetrain not set properly.(some of these things were warranty replacement setup)
Obviously after all that I decided to never Require a shop again...some brands want a shop to do warranty work... Cool i want that part and ill sell it.
I've spoken to many ex customers who have had issues with the same shops and many have turned to doing their own work.(one even had a Cracked frame after a Bearing replacement went wrong)
Wont name a shop but one in Christchurch area NZ you should be banned from working on brakes!
Also, many want $100NZD+ Per hour, sorry not paying that for what i've seen, heard and experienced.
Someone mentioned about making things easier to fix/work on, I want 'easier to setup' Like I dont want to faff massaging pistons and dealing with Calipers that will never balance or Dealing with stupid bleed procedures.
Component Brands Really grind my gears with setup stuff
When Sram released the original AXS drivetrain, my god it was easy, bolt straight on and micro-adjust, done.
Mini-rant over.
sorry if I got a little off main topic but I feel It's not always just about cost but ability of a mechanic aswell.
P.s Everybody should learn basic bike stuff, especially stuff like fork lowers/drivetrain/cables/bleeding brakes etc
Yeah, those $10k bike owners can be total cheapskates. At the same time, I worked on a lot of bikes that should have been tossed in the bin, but for the owners the bike was how they made a living, whether it be basic transportation, collecting cans, drug mule, whatever. Doing $300 service work on a $150 bike seemed wrong, but as long as we told people how much the work was going to cost, they would usually go for it.
As for low-end Shimano parts, we drew the line at Tourney. We also kept a bunch of older but decent used derailleurs and shifters in a box for emergencies.
Yeah communication is key. Many shops are smaller crews but having a competent service writer would be huge for most shops. I always found that taking the time to measure chain wear/rotor thickness/pad thickness in front of customers did a few things.
1. It shows you are measuring and not guessing which helps build trust
2. It gives you the time to explain why these things wear and how they affect performance, which again helps build trust. If a customer sees you do a a check over I always found they are more likely to trust your assessments in the future.
3. Tell them what is still in good shape. "brake pads need to be replaced but you're headset bearings/bb are in good shape. Showing a customer you are not just replacing something for the sake of making money off them also helps.
Shop owners also need to see the value in giving their employees some responsibility and opportunity to earn. Giving service or sales KPIs that relate to a dollar bonus helps motivate the staff and gives them an opportunity to improve workflows to be more efficient. IE. texting or emailing quotes rather than leaving a voicemail that no one will listen to.
I have seen so many owners almost have the same mentality as consumers and not value staff and think paying a grom minimum wage is a great way to maintain profitability when it leads to poor customer experience like noideamtber talks about.
If manufacturers want a better reputation they also need to take some of the training onus. Sure, online documentation and videos are getting better but if your a bigger player having a field rep (Bosch seems to do this well) show up and show best practices in person goes a long way. Help spread the cost of training new shop staff between owners and manufacturers and you likely have a more healthy service department, AND your products will probably see less warranty cases from poor setup/less reputational damage if the product is preforming as intended.
Sort of off topic, but something I’ve been pondering:
Has anyone developed a good service writing platform similar to what a lot of car mechanics in the US are using now that basically texts you a link to all the different issues they’ve found, item by item, with recommended next steps and costs. Then you just approve each line item that you want to have done? A lot of the garages will even include videos/pictures that show the issue in action to demonstrate the “need.” One garage I use also flags items as red, yellow, green, letting you know level of severity of the issue. Then the system also sends out periodic text reminders to you of things they might have recommended but that you chose not to do which might now have increased in severity. Anyway, I know service writing is a huge part of running a bike shop, and it seems like a service writing management platform like this would really help in “professionalizing” as well as automating certain aspects of the process.
That being said, I’m sure the software isn’t cheap and entering all the SKUs and such into the system would be a huge lift on the front end for a shop. There might just not be enough money in wrenching on bikes to make it worthwhile, but as I’ve listened to podcasts with mechanics and service writers talking about their daily workflow, it seems like something that would be super useful for large bike shops.
I am not aware of one either. I was looking into the development of one but ran out of steam on the project with my primary career taking priority.
A big challenge with that is that most people don't modify their cars, so there's no choice required, either they fix it or they don't. A lot of people change parts on their bikes because most are cross compatible. Bike shops will often change to different parts considering what's available, how much the client is willing to spend, and any changes to performance or appearance that are wanted. That requires more discussion with the mechanic, rather than clicking "yes" on the service request.
I think my analogy of bike shops being like restaurants works here too. You don't walk into a diner and say "I am a person that needs food and a drink. Choose based on what the last brown haired 5'9" person ordered". You can choose the meal you want based on how much you can spend, your personal taste, what's on sale, and what food goes better with which drink.
I don't think it matters if the bike has been modified. "Front brake bleed required" or "chain at 80% wear and looks like it was struck by the Exxon Valdez - replacement required" are brand and model agnostic. Add in a replacement part name, cost and labour charge as a line item for the customer to check and it would work similarly to the automotive solutions.
The real challenge to implementing a solution like that in bike shops is that it would be hell to incorporate it into the existing shop POS system. Shops using Lightspeed or whatever Trek offers may have a hard time connecting to an online app that updates in real time. A cloud-based solution would be easier, but until one of the major POS companies offers a stock module/app/plugin it will be an uphill battle.
I've never given any thought to which brake rotor or pad I should put on my 2007 hatchback.
But I HAVE compared rotors, rotor sizes, brake pads, pad materials, and all those details across many brands for my bikes.
You'd have to have inventory and preferred selections from distributors linked to the service writing app so it could make recommendations and show the pricing for those items. You'd also have to allow an option for a customer to request an item that isn't in the recommendations. That'll then require checking inventory/distributors to see if what they're asking for is available, a phone call/email with the customer to get confirmation and agreement pricing, and then that's got to be updated on the service order in the app.
Not impossible, but certainly an expensive pain in the ass to build and then an even bigger, more expensive pain in the ass to populate/keep updated with parts.
I agree that it can sometimes be more complex, which would require a conversation. I've had the same experience with the service writing platform on vehicles where a followup phone call is required... but at least I went into the phone call with some forewarning and understanding of the issues and what I was looking at prior to just having them popped on me out of the blue. I was also able to research that issue to my satisfaction and the usual estimated costs around that issue so that, as a customer, I felt good about the decision I was going to make prior to the phonecall rather than just, "This, this and this are wrong. You want us to fix it? It's going to cost X." As a customer, I really like the transparency of the system, and it keeps me from feeling like I might be getting taken advantage of because I have a decent understanding of the full scope of the work that's being done as well as the pricing of the parts and labor before pulling the trigger.
The part listing in a POS is often not an issue. Most big distributor send regular updated database to Lightspeed and other POS system so that shop can quickly add SKU in their system and work orders via catalog results. This is the kind of API connection that both distributor/manufacturer and lightspeed constantly work on.
As for work order communication, I know in the past Lightspeed have bought smaller project and added them as option to Lightspeed POS for bike shop much like SAP also have multiple product depending on your need so you don't need to buy in the full product suite.
The system we used at the last shop I was at gave us the ability to send a text with the work order to the customer. From there we could add a link to a given part if the customer had questions about what the part is.
It made life easy because they couldn't say there were unexpected charges since we had a text exchange showing everything, including the customer approval.
Those frames are $4K, how the hell did they sell them out already? That's insane...
That is wild to me. Cool bikes I get the desire to support the project, but 4k for a frame? I would much sooner get a raaw.
Very good products and even far better people behind em. Makes perfect sense they are going like hot cakes!
Open wide... Daddy needs a new bike!
If you've not heard enough on the topic of YT, Sam Nicols (Former CEO) was recently on The Business of Cycling podcast. It was a little different feel and far less detailed than @jeff.brines Vital interview. Speaking of, I don't think he mentioned it here, or I missed it somewhere in the 140 pages, but Jeff was on the pod as well a little while back, too.
Given the discussion in this thread I feel like that joke may need to be updated to finance bro or something... 🤣
From a couple of days ago and not sure it its been covered yet, Deviate relaunching feb 12th
Did I read correctly somewhere on the Vital forums someone mentioned that Specialized was winding down their clothing division? I think it was in the context of Loic and Finn riding Alpinestars clothing this season.
Seems like the margins on the clothing are high and this would be a relatively easy place to make some money for them.
On another note, I hope Deviate comes back! That would be cool. Love Fairbrother's crazy missions and Mael Feron riding to the top of the Mega then taking 5th was just as radical.
I can speak to clothing as I run a tiny MTB apparel brand, Abit Gear. The short story is that for USA brands, tariffs are making it a royal PITA and covid saw a glut of inventory that isn't yet cleared. Sure, margins are good on paper, but you have a SKU problem with apparel do to size and color variants, you have to carry a lot of aged inventory, and fight discounting from competitors more than with hard goods.
For technical apparel, China is, by far, the best quality. Most of the technical apparel factories are in China. They have the right machines, that's where the supply chain is for all the tiny pieces of high-end trim (pocket mesh, buttons, zippers, etc), they make exactly what you ask for, and they'll do low minimums. Even the big brands in MTB are low volume compared to fashion.
Due to the tariff stuff I moved producttion from China to India last year. I got the quality I needed, but holy crap dealing with India was a pain in the ass. Never working with them again. With Chinese factories, they'll make exactly what you ask for. India would make protos of mostly what I spec'd, but not exactly. Back and forth 10 times until I had it dialed. Time and cost eaten up vs China, and too much risk of them screwing up an entire order.
There are good apparel factories in Vietnam, but the minimum order quanities (MOQ) are a lot higher at 3000 to 5000 per style. This only works for the big brands. China factories will do much lower MOQs.
SKU bloat is a challenge in apparel. You got your sizes, add in a color or inseam length, and you start multiplying variants. In my example I've got shorts in 6 sizes, 2 fits, 2 colors. That's up to 24 SKUs for one product, arrrrgh! I've been working on streamlining future products, got pants down to just sizes at 7 total variants. This SKU bloat is what drives discounting. Brands that do seasonal styles (why, just why?) have trouble getting rid of those slower selling variants, and discount like crazy when they introduce an updated style or color.
Throw in the insane volume of orders from the covid bubble, and you've got brands taking a bath on apparel. Layer on tariff chaos and the fact that all the good factories are in China, and you've got a challenging segement. I can see why Specialized has chosen to get leaner and focus on their core products at a time when cashflows are tight.
For those in the USA, get ready for technical apparel prices to go up once the current glut of covid inventory is gone and the full impacts of tariffs hit. The next 3 years are going to be a royal PITA for USA-based companies as we ride the roller coaster of tariffs. It really puts us at a disadvantage vs our international competition.
I'm just mad because they were such good deals on good apparel.
Deviate says they're coming back the 13th or something.
Apparel can generally be really tough in bike stores. There's a lot of bike stores that do it really bad. I'd put most bike shops into this category. However, to do it right, there's a big capital, time, and space commitment that most aren't prepared or equipped to deal with. Doing it right means keeping the area tidy and organized, displayed well, tons of sizes and colours in stock, knowing how to sell it personally, and vitally, being willing to sell it below cost to an outlet store whenever things sit.
It's remarkable how different stuff like ski and board shops, which follow more of a "lifestyle" model, feel from 'core' bike shops. Not saying it's a good or bad thing, it's far more different than one would expect from the outside. You only really get those "lifestyle" bike shops in tourist spots, and I'm guessing dollar for dollar Specialized sells way more into core bike shops.
Post a reply to: The Bikeconomics (Mega)Thread