Supposedly the bronze levers are easier to pull the the silver/ultimate versions. It seems like the biggest criticism the mavens have received is that the levers...
Supposedly the bronze levers are easier to pull the the silver/ultimate versions. It seems like the biggest criticism the mavens have received is that the levers are too hard to pull. So I was wondering if anyone had played with mixing levers now that SRAM is all mineral oil at this point. That said my bronze ones are fine and I doubt the ultimates are that much harder to pull.
There is some chatter on the maven thread over at mtbr from people putting shimano levers on maven calipers.
Pull apart any Sram brake (I have experience with those, not with any others sadly) and you can see the piston is scratched on one side. That's...
Pull apart any Sram brake (I have experience with those, not with any others sadly) and you can see the piston is scratched on one side.
That's also the reason the fluid comes out gray on non RSC brakes as the master body and caliper is painted, not anodized, which means the bore is raw aluminium. This gets scratched and worn a bit and thus the grey fluid - even old fluid in an RSC brake is still clear.
As the plastic piston is softer than the aluminium, even though there are some wear particles, it still seals. With an aluminium piston I bet the bore would get scratched enough for the seals not to seal (and the lever dropping to the bar). Technically the seal can carry the sideloads if it is stiff enough, but I can assure you with Sram the piston hits the bore.
Aliexpress replacement pistons not using glide rings is the exact problem I used "aliexpress special" term for. For the love of God, don't use them.
As for Formula, the white ring carrying the spring is probably acting as a glide ring as well. And hope does use glide rings.
Remember, the primary function of the bore wall is to provide a smooth surface for the seal to seal against. If anything will be sliding along it, besides the seal itself, it has to be softer than the bore. If you have a steel bore, no problems. As most mtb brakes have aluminium masters, there's a bit of a problem with aluminium pistons.
I would say painted internal bore of the brake is bigger issue than piston material though? Hard to see how could they reach any kind of accuracy with paint thickness varying. And with all the swelling issues they had and obvious wear issues you mentioned I dont see that as great solution either. If they can make alu piston kits for few euros, adding glide ring to the design would be negligible. Its more on the " good enough for this purpose" way of thinking imho. On the formula piston I think the white ring is a stop resting against the circlip, the moving part is the other end. And as you mentioned the use of oring instead of u cup seal might be the reason why it forks no problem as it's not that squishy.
Anyone rode Guide RE's and Mavens? I only rode the Guide RE when it comes to modernish SRAM brakes and I felt the bite point adjustment didn't let me adjust the bite point far enough away from the lever as soon as the pads were worn a bit. Does the Maven have the same limited adjustment range? Because the lever and the mechanism for reach adjust seems to be similar.
I know the ultimate and silver versions have additionals adjustmens so if that is the case: can they mitigate this?
@Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside obviously, but I didn't specify that) resulting in a raw aluminium bore (as the inside is not painted). If you anodize, the whole part gets covered, including the bore.
If the likes of Intend and Trickstuff are using it, surely it's not a case of "good enough" but a case of "smart engineering".
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
Guide RE doesn't have bite point adjust... @Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside...
Guide RE doesn't have bite point adjust...
@Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside obviously, but I didn't specify that) resulting in a raw aluminium bore (as the inside is not painted). If you anodize, the whole part gets covered, including the bore.
If the likes of Intend and Trickstuff are using it, surely it's not a case of "good enough" but a case of "smart engineering".
Ah that part I misunderstood, at least my way of thinking was not crazy that paint wouldn't work there lol.
To be honest, intend/trickstuff not using plastic/composite/polymer whatever for master piston would be enough for me to not buy those brakes, they charge enough money to make those brakes to the utmost perfection and any shortcuts are not accepted. Lewis would get a free pass there heh
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all...
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
One interesting thing with EPDM that arguably makes it an excellent choice is that it doesn't really melt or anything when it goes over its max temp. It just starts to degrade. This makes it less likely to catastrophically fail, which is a really good thing for brakes. This is a graph I found with a little info on EPDM at temps beyond the listed max temp. Degradation starts just past 300F, but doesn't become extreme until 400F. At 450F it's done for.
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all...
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
Brake hose melting reminds me of the time someone torture tested their guide brakes on a lathe. That's exactly what happened.
Guide RE doesn't have bite point adjust... @Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside...
Guide RE doesn't have bite point adjust...
@Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside obviously, but I didn't specify that) resulting in a raw aluminium bore (as the inside is not painted). If you anodize, the whole part gets covered, including the bore.
If the likes of Intend and Trickstuff are using it, surely it's not a case of "good enough" but a case of "smart engineering".
I'm mixing up lever and bite point adjust but my question is if the lever adjust on the maven is also that limited to move the moment of engagement/bitepoint/whatever away from the bar?
Is it range bigger with the additional bite point adjust of the ultimate/silver?
I keep seeing a lot of misinformation on this thread regarding Mavens. The Silver/SLV & Ultimate/ULT lever pull prior to engagement (free stroke) is like Code RSCs, except that after engagement it has much greater power on the rotor, so to stop or slow down on real steep parts, you don't need to pull as hard after engagement to get the same amount of speed reduction. The big difference is that on the SLV/ULT, if you run the contact adjuster all the way in, the free stroke part of the pull becomes longer but lighter. Running the C adjuster fully out makes it shorter but takes more force. The Bronze/BRNZ lever is like the Code Rs, somewhere in the middle.
I personally start with my Mavens' contact adjuster set all the way in after a fresh bleed and fresh set of pads, then adjust the rear's outward until both brakes feel like they engage at the same time. Throughout pad wear etc., I continue to adjust the contact adjuster outwards so the brakes maintain the same feel, then start over when I replace the pads. I'm extremely picky about wanting my left/right brake to feel like they engage the same, so there is no way I'd ever run the BRNZ or Base. Every time I've owned brakes without a functioning contact adjuster, I've found myself doing all sorts of other gimmicks to try and balance engagement feel, like running mismatched reaches, or constantly rebleeding and overfilling the system. I'd far rather have an obscene amount of stopping power after engagement at a cost of a little more work to get through freestroke (Mavens) than the opposite (Dominions - ran those for a couple years) because it results in better control and less arm pump.
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all...
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
Good grief the new brembo brakes have to be the ugliest things I've ever seen, it makes the mavens look like a piece of art. After looking at my intends, the brembos make my eyes recoil and blast backwards in the brain.
There are so many people that work on the development of a brake, can't imagine there wasn't at least one guy that said what in the f is this aesthetic. They could be two times better than my intends at half the price, won't ever put those on my bike
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all...
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
One interesting thing with EPDM that arguably makes it an excellent choice is that it doesn't really melt or anything when it goes over its max...
One interesting thing with EPDM that arguably makes it an excellent choice is that it doesn't really melt or anything when it goes over its max temp. It just starts to degrade. This makes it less likely to catastrophically fail, which is a really good thing for brakes. This is a graph I found with a little info on EPDM at temps beyond the listed max temp. Degradation starts just past 300F, but doesn't become extreme until 400F. At 450F it's done for.
Exactly. Probably begins losing elasticity as the molecule chains get cooked.
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than Mavens !!!):
"The braking system, both front and rear, includes an axial brake master cylinder that, in addition to the two common adjustments (lever distance and free stroke), also features center-to-center adjustment, allowing riders to customize the braking feel according to their preferences."
Center-to-center adjustment?? Is this Brembo's terminology for a leverage ratio adjustment like the Lewis LHT? If this is the case, it's hidden in the lever very well. Looking at the lever, there's no visible pivot point other than the main lever pivot, which leads me to believe there's no cam mechanism in there. In that case, I'm at a loss for what else this adjustment could be on a direct-link master cylinder.
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than...
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than Mavens !!!):
"The braking system, both front and rear, includes an axial brake master cylinder that, in addition to the two common adjustments (lever distance and free stroke), also features center-to-center adjustment, allowing riders to customize the braking feel according to their preferences."
Center-to-center adjustment?? Is this Brembo's terminology for a leverage ratio adjustment like the Lewis LHT? If this is the case, it's hidden in the lever very well. Looking at the lever, there's no visible pivot point other than the main lever pivot, which leads me to believe there's no cam mechanism in there. In that case, I'm at a loss for what else this adjustment could be on a direct-link master cylinder.
I'm surprised more brands haven't done that yet it seems very useful on the Lewis. Coming from someone who likes their brakes touchy.
On the topic of those Brembos has anyone come to a conclusion on fluid in that system? It's not DOT since it's red.? Any ideas if it's mineral oil or their own formula?
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than...
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than Mavens !!!):
"The braking system, both front and rear, includes an axial brake master cylinder that, in addition to the two common adjustments (lever distance and free stroke), also features center-to-center adjustment, allowing riders to customize the braking feel according to their preferences."
Center-to-center adjustment?? Is this Brembo's terminology for a leverage ratio adjustment like the Lewis LHT? If this is the case, it's hidden in the lever very well. Looking at the lever, there's no visible pivot point other than the main lever pivot, which leads me to believe there's no cam mechanism in there. In that case, I'm at a loss for what else this adjustment could be on a direct-link master cylinder.
Formula fcs lever has similar system and it's very well Hidden.
I don't have any data right now to say one way or another but my gut is telling me no. What I do know is that...
I don't have any data right now to say one way or another but my gut is telling me no. What I do know is that boiling temp increases pretty significantly based on the pressure that the fluid is it. I have heard engineers in the industry stating that line pressures are over 1000psi for peak braking events, that's 68X more pressure than the atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psi that the boiling point it rated at, but that's all the data that I have to go off of, I don't have extra any inline wireless pressure transducers lying around at the moment to corroborate this
I do have an array of thermal stickers that I was planning on placing on my rotors and calipers this last weekend to see how hot they get doing some practice runs for a DH race coming up later this month, but I got lost in the weekend and forgot to stick them on. Will make sure to do it the Thursday before I pack up for the race.
The way I look at it, even if we took the pressure out of the equation, our brake fluids have thermal conductivities of around .13W/m·K which makes them very good insulators. It will take a lot of sustained heat to actually get the fluid up to the temp of the caliper, which is probably why Brembo has no issue using Al pistons, I would bet that they have not only run the CFD simulations but also performed a significant amount of lab testing to back up their decisions. If I have some time I'll try to setup something simple in comsol to simulate the amount of thermal energy needed to heat a mineral oil to its boiling point, and maybe try to add pressure into the equation, could be a fun thought experiment.
I like both your thought experiments and proposed real world experiments. I did not know that brake fluid was such a poor conductor of heat, that is really interesting.
Having said that, am I crazy to think that getting even a small layer of the fluid up to the boiling point could be problematic? In other words, these hypothetical hot pistons will transfer heat fairly readily to the fluid layer in direct contact with them, I would imagine. The fluid may then not as readily transfter the heat throughout the rest of the hydraulic system, but it doesn't seem like you'd need to boil the whole system for it to be a problem. It seems like just the immediate layer right around the pistons would be enough. I am thinking of when one is boiling a pot of water, and before it reaches a full rolling boil, you start seeing bubbles coming of the layer of water in direct contact with the heated surface at the bottom of the pot.
I haven't looked into aluminum piston properties myself, but the great thermal conductivity of aluminum (when compared to steel) is why Shimano sandwiches it in their Icetech rotors. On the other hand, while aluminum may conduct well internally, it also has fairly high reflectivity and low emittance, which is why aluminized materials are often used in radiant heat barriers in construction and HVAC systems, so if Brembo had a piston face that minimized surface contact between the piston and pad backing, that might work in their favor.
Considering they call them “isolated” pistons and there’s a visible line inboard of the edge of the piston, I think they are using an insert for insulation like a lot of brands are. You can see a very real increase in caliper temp using stainless pistons. I would not want aluminum with no additional insulation.
Considering they call them “isolated” pistons and there’s a visible line inboard of the edge of the piston, I think they are using an insert for...
Considering they call them “isolated” pistons and there’s a visible line inboard of the edge of the piston, I think they are using an insert for insulation like a lot of brands are. You can see a very real increase in caliper temp using stainless pistons. I would not want aluminum with no additional insulation.
Right. Part of the joy of All Clad cookware is the aluminum core that helps heat the pan evenly. Brembo looks to be using a phenolic insert.
I just use side cutters or diagonal cutters and send it. It's worked sweet for all my braided. You could also use a cutting disc and wrap some insulation tape around your cut point.
I keep seeing a lot of misinformation on this thread regarding Mavens. The Silver/SLV & Ultimate/ULT lever pull prior to engagement (free stroke) is like Code...
I keep seeing a lot of misinformation on this thread regarding Mavens. The Silver/SLV & Ultimate/ULT lever pull prior to engagement (free stroke) is like Code RSCs, except that after engagement it has much greater power on the rotor, so to stop or slow down on real steep parts, you don't need to pull as hard after engagement to get the same amount of speed reduction. The big difference is that on the SLV/ULT, if you run the contact adjuster all the way in, the free stroke part of the pull becomes longer but lighter. Running the C adjuster fully out makes it shorter but takes more force. The Bronze/BRNZ lever is like the Code Rs, somewhere in the middle.
I personally start with my Mavens' contact adjuster set all the way in after a fresh bleed and fresh set of pads, then adjust the rear's outward until both brakes feel like they engage at the same time. Throughout pad wear etc., I continue to adjust the contact adjuster outwards so the brakes maintain the same feel, then start over when I replace the pads. I'm extremely picky about wanting my left/right brake to feel like they engage the same, so there is no way I'd ever run the BRNZ or Base. Every time I've owned brakes without a functioning contact adjuster, I've found myself doing all sorts of other gimmicks to try and balance engagement feel, like running mismatched reaches, or constantly rebleeding and overfilling the system. I'd far rather have an obscene amount of stopping power after engagement at a cost of a little more work to get through freestroke (Mavens) than the opposite (Dominions - ran those for a couple years) because it results in better control and less arm pump.
I feel you. We should go in together on some "contact adjust is cheaper than therapy" shirts.
For me, my one set of Mavens has a shorter throw and I don't need to cheat pads as much. I've run Codes forever, and still have them on my other two bikes. I always end up cheating the pistons out some when the pads have worn to about 3.5 total width. I can generally get them back where I've got some room in the contact adjust band to get them feeling the same and keep them there as the pad finishes its life. But maybe I'm not overfilling/pressuring as much right from the start as you are?
SRAM is not cool and boutique, but you can set them up just how you want them and the parts availability is fantastic. I love being able to rebuild MC and calipers and always get whatever I need.
Could it be that people who brake hard for shorter distances and let the levers fully return to resting position get along better with SRAM brakes whereas people who tend to hold the lever within the dead stroke more get bothered by SRAM?
I feel you. We should go in together on some "contact adjust is cheaper than therapy" shirts.For me, my one set of Mavens has a shorter...
I feel you. We should go in together on some "contact adjust is cheaper than therapy" shirts.
For me, my one set of Mavens has a shorter throw and I don't need to cheat pads as much. I've run Codes forever, and still have them on my other two bikes. I always end up cheating the pistons out some when the pads have worn to about 3.5 total width. I can generally get them back where I've got some room in the contact adjust band to get them feeling the same and keep them there as the pad finishes its life. But maybe I'm not overfilling/pressuring as much right from the start as you are?
SRAM is not cool and boutique, but you can set them up just how you want them and the parts availability is fantastic. I love being able to rebuild MC and calipers and always get whatever I need.
Could it be that people who brake hard for shorter distances and let the levers fully return to resting position get along better with SRAM brakes whereas people who tend to hold the lever within the dead stroke more get bothered by SRAM?
Im just going to comment on the last part. IMO I feel like every single person i've ever met that has complained about Sram brakes I notice they are always brake draggers - which are the same ones who Grip their Grips as hard as possible all the time... then they complain they get sore hands/Arm pump.
Im not going to lie, When I first Used The Code RSC brake I used to get sore hands/arm pump alot easier and it wasnt untill I met a really good rider on the Chairlift he just said "do you brake when driving at the speed limit? Brake when you actually have to, If it feels to fast for you - ride some slower trails to get muscle memory" I ended up learning how to ride Harder trails, my arms werent as tired, I actually went alot faster than before and as a bonus, my pads lasted considerably longer.
A side note to above, I believe this is Why some people destroy Those Green Race pads galfer/hope(galfer)/sinter etc The constant dragging just destroys them with heat.
Most people moaning about Codes a few years ago also ran Rs from my experience. Very few people running RSCs complained about them. Maybe today when more powerful brakes are available, but not 5+ years ago.
I think Sram did themselves a big disservice by even offering a Code R, they should have just started the lineup with Code RS.
Code RSs still uses bushes for the lever pivot and they always just wear and feel crap very quickly. I have no problem with bushes in Shimano levers but SRAM ones just don't last well. Code RSCs are on another planet in terms of longevity/performance just because of that IMO.
I have a "BMX background" (lol) and often don't even cover my brakes let alone drag them. Still don't like the SRAM feel and prefer extremely light levers, will not use anything other than Dominions now. Still get arm pump 🥲 even when I'm climbing/bouldering fit. But the lighter lever feel definitely helps it.
Code RSs still uses bushes for the lever pivot and they always just wear and feel crap very quickly. I have no problem with bushes in...
Code RSs still uses bushes for the lever pivot and they always just wear and feel crap very quickly. I have no problem with bushes in Shimano levers but SRAM ones just don't last well. Code RSCs are on another planet in terms of longevity/performance just because of that IMO.
I have a "BMX background" (lol) and often don't even cover my brakes let alone drag them. Still don't like the SRAM feel and prefer extremely light levers, will not use anything other than Dominions now. Still get arm pump 🥲 even when I'm climbing/bouldering fit. But the lighter lever feel definitely helps it.
I changed my setup so that the lever is super close to the bar and I stopped getting arm pump instantly, and I’m on Code RS.
I've talked about my hand problems a lot, but brake setup plays a huge role. It's part of the reason I've tried so many different brakes.
What I found is that brakes with a ton of power but super linear pulls (Maxima, MT7, Code mainly) don't help and/or make issues worse for me. This comes down to power delivery but also ergonomics and how that power delivery influences power delivery. Some brakes just can't be run close due to the lack of power early in the lever pull. If the lever has to be shot out into space to get power from it, it'll change where your hands engage with the bar and where the pressure points are. Further out and your hand rotates more inwards towards the stem, closer in and it rotates further outward. How this helps or hurts depends on your hands/bars/arms/etc. You can experiment with this somewhat by putting the lever out at extreme angles, pulling it, and noting where your hands feel tense against the bar, move it all the way in and repeat to note the difference.
This is where very grabby, very strong (Maven, Intend, T4V4, Radic) brakes make a big difference for me esp if they have contact adjust. You can tune the lever position based on where it feels best and make adjustments to mitigate or reduce arm pump. Everyone has different hands/arms/wrists/etc, but also bars have different sweep and riders use different roll on the bar (which influences sweep angles also). For the average rider without issues, it may seem pedantic or fiddly to mess with this, but for people who have problems or issues, it can be a remarkable change in how you feel riding. I wish I had an objective way to measure and map this out, but being sensitive to it - it's pretty easy to feel.
Point being, I find a direct correlation to brake lever position / braking power delivery and how bad my hand issues get aggravated. If you experiment with lever positioning and pull, you'll probably find that the pressure points on your hands move as the lever position is moved in/out.
There is some chatter on the maven thread over at mtbr from people putting shimano levers on maven calipers.
I would say painted internal bore of the brake is bigger issue than piston material though? Hard to see how could they reach any kind of accuracy with paint thickness varying. And with all the swelling issues they had and obvious wear issues you mentioned I dont see that as great solution either. If they can make alu piston kits for few euros, adding glide ring to the design would be negligible. Its more on the " good enough for this purpose" way of thinking imho. On the formula piston I think the white ring is a stop resting against the circlip, the moving part is the other end. And as you mentioned the use of oring instead of u cup seal might be the reason why it forks no problem as it's not that squishy.
Anyone rode Guide RE's and Mavens? I only rode the Guide RE when it comes to modernish SRAM brakes and I felt the bite point adjustment didn't let me adjust the bite point far enough away from the lever as soon as the pads were worn a bit. Does the Maven have the same limited adjustment range? Because the lever and the mechanism for reach adjust seems to be similar.
I know the ultimate and silver versions have additionals adjustmens so if that is the case: can they mitigate this?
Guide RE doesn't have bite point adjust...
@Jakub_G painted bores? Where did you get that? I said the calipers and masters are painted (on the outside obviously, but I didn't specify that) resulting in a raw aluminium bore (as the inside is not painted). If you anodize, the whole part gets covered, including the bore.
If the likes of Intend and Trickstuff are using it, surely it's not a case of "good enough" but a case of "smart engineering".
Gonna answer a couple quips in one post rather than replying. Lazy day here:
Who uses alloy MC pistons? Hope, Formula, Hayes, some entry/non series Shimano all do off the top of my head. The gain is material stability. Hayes used POM back in the day, and they swelled over time due to chemical damage and fatigue, same goes for near every Avid/Sram brake. I've replaced multiple pistons from both of them for this reason, even modelled up replacement mc pistons for the OG Mags with the idea to turn a few for replacements for resto builds. As for Shimano, as I've stated here n elsewhere, I had a MC piston swell and lock up on a personal set of SLX brakes. The other piston began swelling and due to that nipped the P cup, killing any braking ability. Of note I only used Shimano fluid in the system and have dedicated bleed kits for Shimano, Mag, and TRP so no, it wasn't a cross contamination issue. Being in the woods with a dead brake and a number of miles to go, how you say, blows.
How hot does a caliper get? Hot enough to melt a kevlar hose at the attachment area. How do I know? I've seen two tandems have it happen. Granted, this was years ago and brakes have come a helluvalong way in terms of design for heat management and a MTB tandem definitely brings a new level of hurt to a brake system, especially so when one is piloted by Mark Weir. Funny bit, caliper seals were visually fine and not leaking. Crazy but true.
Ah that part I misunderstood, at least my way of thinking was not crazy that paint wouldn't work there lol.
To be honest, intend/trickstuff not using plastic/composite/polymer whatever for master piston would be enough for me to not buy those brakes, they charge enough money to make those brakes to the utmost perfection and any shortcuts are not accepted. Lewis would get a free pass there heh
One interesting thing with EPDM that arguably makes it an excellent choice is that it doesn't really melt or anything when it goes over its max temp. It just starts to degrade. This makes it less likely to catastrophically fail, which is a really good thing for brakes. This is a graph I found with a little info on EPDM at temps beyond the listed max temp. Degradation starts just past 300F, but doesn't become extreme until 400F. At 450F it's done for.
Brake hose melting reminds me of the time someone torture tested their guide brakes on a lathe. That's exactly what happened.
https://youtu.be/v3sPuf-Dlmg?t=314
I'm mixing up lever and bite point adjust but my question is if the lever adjust on the maven is also that limited to move the moment of engagement/bitepoint/whatever away from the bar?
Is it range bigger with the additional bite point adjust of the ultimate/silver?
I keep seeing a lot of misinformation on this thread regarding Mavens. The Silver/SLV & Ultimate/ULT lever pull prior to engagement (free stroke) is like Code RSCs, except that after engagement it has much greater power on the rotor, so to stop or slow down on real steep parts, you don't need to pull as hard after engagement to get the same amount of speed reduction. The big difference is that on the SLV/ULT, if you run the contact adjuster all the way in, the free stroke part of the pull becomes longer but lighter. Running the C adjuster fully out makes it shorter but takes more force. The Bronze/BRNZ lever is like the Code Rs, somewhere in the middle.
I personally start with my Mavens' contact adjuster set all the way in after a fresh bleed and fresh set of pads, then adjust the rear's outward until both brakes feel like they engage at the same time. Throughout pad wear etc., I continue to adjust the contact adjuster outwards so the brakes maintain the same feel, then start over when I replace the pads. I'm extremely picky about wanting my left/right brake to feel like they engage the same, so there is no way I'd ever run the BRNZ or Base. Every time I've owned brakes without a functioning contact adjuster, I've found myself doing all sorts of other gimmicks to try and balance engagement feel, like running mismatched reaches, or constantly rebleeding and overfilling the system. I'd far rather have an obscene amount of stopping power after engagement at a cost of a little more work to get through freestroke (Mavens) than the opposite (Dominions - ran those for a couple years) because it results in better control and less arm pump.
I'd like to see more vids of components being torture tested.
Good grief the new brembo brakes have to be the ugliest things I've ever seen, it makes the mavens look like a piece of art. After looking at my intends, the brembos make my eyes recoil and blast backwards in the brain.
There are so many people that work on the development of a brake, can't imagine there wasn't at least one guy that said what in the f is this aesthetic. They could be two times better than my intends at half the price, won't ever put those on my bike
Exactly. Probably begins losing elasticity as the molecule chains get cooked.
I'm bored at work and reading Brembo's article about the new brakes, and one thing definitely stands out to me (besides the higher hydraulic leverage than Mavens !!!):
"The braking system, both front and rear, includes an axial brake master cylinder that, in addition to the two common adjustments (lever distance and free stroke), also features center-to-center adjustment, allowing riders to customize the braking feel according to their preferences."
Center-to-center adjustment?? Is this Brembo's terminology for a leverage ratio adjustment like the Lewis LHT? If this is the case, it's hidden in the lever very well. Looking at the lever, there's no visible pivot point other than the main lever pivot, which leads me to believe there's no cam mechanism in there. In that case, I'm at a loss for what else this adjustment could be on a direct-link master cylinder.
I'm surprised more brands haven't done that yet it seems very useful on the Lewis. Coming from someone who likes their brakes touchy.
On the topic of those Brembos has anyone come to a conclusion on fluid in that system? It's not DOT since it's red.? Any ideas if it's mineral oil or their own formula?
Formula fcs lever has similar system and it's very well Hidden.
Hi brake nerds! I'm looking for a sanity check on a brake mount I've designed. Does this look sane or insane? Thanks in advance!
SRAM and some others would say sane.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-patent-hints-at-universal-brake-moun…
That looks to be skinnier than the one I've designed. I'm hoping that means mine won't fail hahaha
I like both your thought experiments and proposed real world experiments. I did not know that brake fluid was such a poor conductor of heat, that is really interesting.
Having said that, am I crazy to think that getting even a small layer of the fluid up to the boiling point could be problematic? In other words, these hypothetical hot pistons will transfer heat fairly readily to the fluid layer in direct contact with them, I would imagine. The fluid may then not as readily transfter the heat throughout the rest of the hydraulic system, but it doesn't seem like you'd need to boil the whole system for it to be a problem. It seems like just the immediate layer right around the pistons would be enough. I am thinking of when one is boiling a pot of water, and before it reaches a full rolling boil, you start seeing bubbles coming of the layer of water in direct contact with the heated surface at the bottom of the pot.
I haven't looked into aluminum piston properties myself, but the great thermal conductivity of aluminum (when compared to steel) is why Shimano sandwiches it in their Icetech rotors. On the other hand, while aluminum may conduct well internally, it also has fairly high reflectivity and low emittance, which is why aluminized materials are often used in radiant heat barriers in construction and HVAC systems, so if Brembo had a piston face that minimized surface contact between the piston and pad backing, that might work in their favor.
Considering they call them “isolated” pistons and there’s a visible line inboard of the edge of the piston, I think they are using an insert for insulation like a lot of brands are. You can see a very real increase in caliper temp using stainless pistons. I would not want aluminum with no additional insulation.
Right. Part of the joy of All Clad cookware is the aluminum core that helps heat the pan evenly. Brembo looks to be using a phenolic insert.
I just use side cutters or diagonal cutters and send it. It's worked sweet for all my braided. You could also use a cutting disc and wrap some insulation tape around your cut point.
I feel you. We should go in together on some "contact adjust is cheaper than therapy" shirts.
For me, my one set of Mavens has a shorter throw and I don't need to cheat pads as much. I've run Codes forever, and still have them on my other two bikes. I always end up cheating the pistons out some when the pads have worn to about 3.5 total width. I can generally get them back where I've got some room in the contact adjust band to get them feeling the same and keep them there as the pad finishes its life. But maybe I'm not overfilling/pressuring as much right from the start as you are?
SRAM is not cool and boutique, but you can set them up just how you want them and the parts availability is fantastic. I love being able to rebuild MC and calipers and always get whatever I need.
Could it be that people who brake hard for shorter distances and let the levers fully return to resting position get along better with SRAM brakes whereas people who tend to hold the lever within the dead stroke more get bothered by SRAM?
Im just going to comment on the last part.
IMO I feel like every single person i've ever met that has complained about Sram brakes I notice they are always brake draggers - which are the same ones who Grip their Grips as hard as possible all the time... then they complain they get sore hands/Arm pump.
Im not going to lie, When I first Used The Code RSC brake I used to get sore hands/arm pump alot easier and it wasnt untill I met a really good rider on the Chairlift he just said "do you brake when driving at the speed limit? Brake when you actually have to, If it feels to fast for you - ride some slower trails to get muscle memory"
I ended up learning how to ride Harder trails, my arms werent as tired, I actually went alot faster than before and as a bonus, my pads lasted considerably longer.
A side note to above, I believe this is Why some people destroy Those Green Race pads galfer/hope(galfer)/sinter etc The constant dragging just destroys them with heat.
Most people moaning about Codes a few years ago also ran Rs from my experience. Very few people running RSCs complained about them. Maybe today when more powerful brakes are available, but not 5+ years ago.
I think Sram did themselves a big disservice by even offering a Code R, they should have just started the lineup with Code RS.
Code RSs still uses bushes for the lever pivot and they always just wear and feel crap very quickly. I have no problem with bushes in Shimano levers but SRAM ones just don't last well. Code RSCs are on another planet in terms of longevity/performance just because of that IMO.
I have a "BMX background" (lol) and often don't even cover my brakes let alone drag them. Still don't like the SRAM feel and prefer extremely light levers, will not use anything other than Dominions now. Still get arm pump 🥲 even when I'm climbing/bouldering fit. But the lighter lever feel definitely helps it.
I changed my setup so that the lever is super close to the bar and I stopped getting arm pump instantly, and I’m on Code RS.
I would venture to say 75% of arm pump occurs bc of brake lever setup, 10% how the brake is used and 25% bc the brake system itself. That's 110% true.
I've talked about my hand problems a lot, but brake setup plays a huge role. It's part of the reason I've tried so many different brakes.
What I found is that brakes with a ton of power but super linear pulls (Maxima, MT7, Code mainly) don't help and/or make issues worse for me. This comes down to power delivery but also ergonomics and how that power delivery influences power delivery. Some brakes just can't be run close due to the lack of power early in the lever pull. If the lever has to be shot out into space to get power from it, it'll change where your hands engage with the bar and where the pressure points are. Further out and your hand rotates more inwards towards the stem, closer in and it rotates further outward. How this helps or hurts depends on your hands/bars/arms/etc. You can experiment with this somewhat by putting the lever out at extreme angles, pulling it, and noting where your hands feel tense against the bar, move it all the way in and repeat to note the difference.
This is where very grabby, very strong (Maven, Intend, T4V4, Radic) brakes make a big difference for me esp if they have contact adjust. You can tune the lever position based on where it feels best and make adjustments to mitigate or reduce arm pump. Everyone has different hands/arms/wrists/etc, but also bars have different sweep and riders use different roll on the bar (which influences sweep angles also). For the average rider without issues, it may seem pedantic or fiddly to mess with this, but for people who have problems or issues, it can be a remarkable change in how you feel riding. I wish I had an objective way to measure and map this out, but being sensitive to it - it's pretty easy to feel.
Point being, I find a direct correlation to brake lever position / braking power delivery and how bad my hand issues get aggravated. If you experiment with lever positioning and pull, you'll probably find that the pressure points on your hands move as the lever position is moved in/out.
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