IIRC Atherton essentially got massively subsidized by either the 3d printing equipment being provided basically for free or they got to use someone else’s equipment for...
IIRC Atherton essentially got massively subsidized by either the 3d printing equipment being provided basically for free or they got to use someone else’s equipment for just the cost of material.
If they had to buy the equipment themselves the business wouldn’t be viable. As evidenced by the cost of Pivot prototypes.
Renishaw, who makes the ti-printers, are a massive investor in Atherton bikes. So that helped a lot. Other than that, they hired the Robot bike engineers and bought the IP to the process.
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C...
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C estimates that the cost to bring this to the market would still be 2-2.5 times the price of the current all carbon model.
Is this because of the custom carbon tubes I wonder? Or is Atherton just running with significantly higher unit costs? It can't be purely from scaling costs since Pivot isn't going to sell more than a thousand DH frames total for this model.
I ask because ever since Starling Bikes started with shed-made frames, and Robot Bikes launched before they became Atherton, I've been wondering about DIY frame kits. You make your own geometry and sizing, maybe you can choose between a few different suspension designs, then you get shipped a box of machined links, precut & mitered (or not, depending on your level of DIY) carbon tubing, and some 3D printed lugs. Oh, also som epoxy to glue it all together. High school me from decades ago would have loved this more than anything. Maybe you could order all steel tubing as well, and a basic welding kit or something.
Maybe its liability suicide to rely on your customers to glue their frames together on their own. Maybe the cost would always be too high. IDK, but if feasible, this would sound so fun for me and my son (in a few years, hes only 4) to do together.
You would have to ship the alignment fixture to put it all together as well.
The secret sauce or added value in frames is not so much the design and making parts as much as putting everything together into a functioning, straight product is.
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C...
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C estimates that the cost to bring this to the market would still be 2-2.5 times the price of the current all carbon model.
Is this because of the custom carbon tubes I wonder? Or is Atherton just running with significantly higher unit costs? It can't be purely from scaling costs since Pivot isn't going to sell more than a thousand DH frames total for this model.
I ask because ever since Starling Bikes started with shed-made frames, and Robot Bikes launched before they became Atherton, I've been wondering about DIY frame kits. You make your own geometry and sizing, maybe you can choose between a few different suspension designs, then you get shipped a box of machined links, precut & mitered (or not, depending on your level of DIY) carbon tubing, and some 3D printed lugs. Oh, also som epoxy to glue it all together. High school me from decades ago would have loved this more than anything. Maybe you could order all steel tubing as well, and a basic welding kit or something.
Maybe its liability suicide to rely on your customers to glue their frames together on their own. Maybe the cost would always be too high. IDK, but if feasible, this would sound so fun for me and my son (in a few years, hes only 4) to do together.
For one, yeah if I was the CEO of a company that supplied DIY frame kits that contained what ever suspension design, Id be losing my...
For one, yeah if I was the CEO of a company that supplied DIY frame kits that contained what ever suspension design, Id be losing my hair at 26 because of lawsuits. People would not be buying bikes, they would be buying hospital trips on wheels. Then Id be buying an Army of lawyers to hopefully protect my ass haha.
But I did think about Atherton bikes having a frame that is very customizable using their tech. The frame would only be a single pivot for simplicity sake. But you get some freedom on the numbers, stiffness inserts, gearbox or not, intended travel, Atherton just makes sure you wont die. Id definitely buy a 170/150 27.5 gearbox atherton frame. ( I know. Im weird, thats okay.) I just dont want DW6 race ready, long reach, straight vertical seat post in my ass.
Anyways, something to note about cost in the frames, Athertons and Starlings, while different materials, use straight tubes. This Pivot frame does not. Im sure that can make a difference in cost to have even the smallest kink in a tube.
Yah, Atherton could require you to send a photo of the model car you built as a child as proof of your ability to align and...
Yah, Atherton could require you to send a photo of the model car you built as a child as proof of your ability to align and glue parts!
But really, those bikes are assembled in jigs in a very specific order. The prep and amount of glue is very specific and yah, it's a safety thing.
Fun idea, but not practical and frankly, wouldn't save any money anyways.
To be honest, they make the lugs in a correct way where the amount of glue needed is 'enough and then some to be sure'. Excess glue gets pushed out of the joint, but the complete overlap gets wetted.
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C...
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C estimates that the cost to bring this to the market would still be 2-2.5 times the price of the current all carbon model.
Is this because of the custom carbon tubes I wonder? Or is Atherton just running with significantly higher unit costs? It can't be purely from scaling costs since Pivot isn't going to sell more than a thousand DH frames total for this model.
I ask because ever since Starling Bikes started with shed-made frames, and Robot Bikes launched before they became Atherton, I've been wondering about DIY frame kits. You make your own geometry and sizing, maybe you can choose between a few different suspension designs, then you get shipped a box of machined links, precut & mitered (or not, depending on your level of DIY) carbon tubing, and some 3D printed lugs. Oh, also som epoxy to glue it all together. High school me from decades ago would have loved this more than anything. Maybe you could order all steel tubing as well, and a basic welding kit or something.
Maybe its liability suicide to rely on your customers to glue their frames together on their own. Maybe the cost would always be too high. IDK, but if feasible, this would sound so fun for me and my son (in a few years, hes only 4) to do together.
An awful lot of naysayers on this idea. Here is atleast a Steel 120mm trailbike that looks like it answers your DIY dream: https://www.rheintritt.nrw/Ruffy
An awful lot of naysayers on this idea. Here is atleast a Steel 120mm trailbike that looks like it answers your DIY dream: https://www.rheintritt.nrw/Ruffy
The plan with the Ruffy was never a fully mittered frame. Phil only wanted to send the tubes and they have to be mittered by someone as this is basically the most work to fit everything. The welding is the easy part.
I was/am pretty involved in the project and did my frame as a framebuilding course at his workshop last summer. Was an awesome experience and I love the bike.
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C...
I'm sure y'all have seen the ti printed prototype of the Pivot DH bike (as opposed to the machined aluminum proto that Kerr busted). Chris C estimates that the cost to bring this to the market would still be 2-2.5 times the price of the current all carbon model.
Is this because of the custom carbon tubes I wonder? Or is Atherton just running with significantly higher unit costs? It can't be purely from scaling costs since Pivot isn't going to sell more than a thousand DH frames total for this model.
I ask because ever since Starling Bikes started with shed-made frames, and Robot Bikes launched before they became Atherton, I've been wondering about DIY frame kits. You make your own geometry and sizing, maybe you can choose between a few different suspension designs, then you get shipped a box of machined links, precut & mitered (or not, depending on your level of DIY) carbon tubing, and some 3D printed lugs. Oh, also som epoxy to glue it all together. High school me from decades ago would have loved this more than anything. Maybe you could order all steel tubing as well, and a basic welding kit or something.
Maybe its liability suicide to rely on your customers to glue their frames together on their own. Maybe the cost would always be too high. IDK, but if feasible, this would sound so fun for me and my son (in a few years, hes only 4) to do together.
Bamboo DIY bikes are fairly readily available I believe. Edit: got beaten to it!! :Edit
As for Atherton I remember reading the carbon tubes are manufactured for sailing, masts, etc and import d from New Zealand? So it's just a case of cutting them to length and gluing then in. I believe manufacture of a carbon tube can be automated, rather than hand laid which can only bring the costs down.
The pivot design on the other hand has an odd bend in the down tube, and is a non-round shape, suggesting they hand lay those parts specifically for the frame. I guess the moulds/oven could be significantly smaller & cheaper than a full front triangle. Possibly letting them do it in-house?
Yeah, tha seems to be the case looking at the first sneak peak pictures that had a raw finish and now the latest ones with the same finish and sharpie markings...
Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the shifter shape that is not looking like the usual square POD.
For one, yeah if I was the CEO of a company that supplied DIY frame kits that contained what ever suspension design, Id be losing my...
For one, yeah if I was the CEO of a company that supplied DIY frame kits that contained what ever suspension design, Id be losing my hair at 26 because of lawsuits. People would not be buying bikes, they would be buying hospital trips on wheels. Then Id be buying an Army of lawyers to hopefully protect my ass haha.
But I did think about Atherton bikes having a frame that is very customizable using their tech. The frame would only be a single pivot for simplicity sake. But you get some freedom on the numbers, stiffness inserts, gearbox or not, intended travel, Atherton just makes sure you wont die. Id definitely buy a 170/150 27.5 gearbox atherton frame. ( I know. Im weird, thats okay.) I just dont want DW6 race ready, long reach, straight vertical seat post in my ass.
Anyways, something to note about cost in the frames, Athertons and Starlings, while different materials, use straight tubes. This Pivot frame does not. Im sure that can make a difference in cost to have even the smallest kink in a tube.
Yup, one thing I've learned from making things out of all kinds of things from all kinds of materials is that glue can be one of...
Yup, one thing I've learned from making things out of all kinds of things from all kinds of materials is that glue can be one of the strongest joints when the parts have the correct clearance, surface finish, cleanliness, application method, fixturing, temperature and cure time but if just one of things is wrong it might be completely useless! A bike company could maybe control 1 or 2 of those things before shipping the parts out but leaving the rest in the hands of a customer is a recipe for disaster...
With that said, if I had to choose between a frame bonded by pivot or the average pinkbiker, it would be a tough decision.
You would have to ship the alignment fixture to put it all together as well.The secret sauce or added value in frames is not so much...
You would have to ship the alignment fixture to put it all together as well.
The secret sauce or added value in frames is not so much the design and making parts as much as putting everything together into a functioning, straight product is.
Solution: Oval tubes! Now the only way to get them to fit is also the way to perfectly align them!
I've ridden some pretty poorly aligned road & mountain bike frames in my day from the Big Boys, so esp. with the context of DIY, I think people would be more tolerant (hehe) that you'd think.
Apart from what you've already mentioned, the jig to bond those together with acceptable alignment would cost more than the bag of parts of you just...
Apart from what you've already mentioned, the jig to bond those together with acceptable alignment would cost more than the bag of parts of you just bought.
This is why is a good business idea- Sell a DIY bamboo jig too!
Can we stop with the pipe dreaming, people would be more likely to glue their head to the table than properly use industrial adhesives in a...
Can we stop with the pipe dreaming, people would be more likely to glue their head to the table than properly use industrial adhesives in a frame jig.
Most people struggle with IKEA,
I recently had to re-attach the rear view mirror mounting button to my car's windscreen and, judging by the poor user reviews for the kit I used, the average person can't even manage to properly prep a glass/ceramic substrate (using a supplied cleaning/activation pad!) and apply a single drop of adhesive to it.
But it's only been up for a few months so it remains to be seen which group I'm in...
New Whyte eMTB releasing March 6th.Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the...
New Whyte eMTB releasing March 6th.
Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the shifter shape that is not looking like the usual square POD.
New Whyte eMTB releasing March 6th.Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the...
New Whyte eMTB releasing March 6th.
Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the shifter shape that is not looking like the usual square POD.
Almost but not quite.There will be a mechanical T-type spec option but that launches later when the embargo lifts.What you see is the cable which runs...
Almost but not quite.
There will be a mechanical T-type spec option but that launches later when the embargo lifts.
What you see is the cable which runs to the battery from the electronic RD and the controller screen at the handlebar.
This looks like one hell of a bike though.
I wasn't aware that Whyte were switching to wire power/battery as they're currently relying on the regular SRAM external battery on all of their ebikes right now.
Wonder if they're still single lap joins like the original proto?
I saw they stuck with the bizarre double straight entry into the head tube
Renishaw, who makes the ti-printers, are a massive investor in Atherton bikes. So that helped a lot. Other than that, they hired the Robot bike engineers and bought the IP to the process.
You would have to ship the alignment fixture to put it all together as well.
The secret sauce or added value in frames is not so much the design and making parts as much as putting everything together into a functioning, straight product is.
To be honest, they make the lugs in a correct way where the amount of glue needed is 'enough and then some to be sure'. Excess glue gets pushed out of the joint, but the complete overlap gets wetted.
An awful lot of naysayers on this idea. Here is atleast a Steel 120mm trailbike that looks like it answers your DIY dream: https://www.rheintritt.nrw/Ruffy
The plan with the Ruffy was never a fully mittered frame. Phil only wanted to send the tubes and they have to be mittered by someone as this is basically the most work to fit everything. The welding is the easy part.
I was/am pretty involved in the project and did my frame as a framebuilding course at his workshop last summer. Was an awesome experience and I love the bike.
Looks like a UNNO emtb prototype on a DJI motor?
Calfee Designs has entered the chat. DIY Bamboo Bike Kit | Calfee Design
Bamboo DIY bikes are fairly readily available I believe. Edit: got beaten to it!! :Edit
As for Atherton I remember reading the carbon tubes are manufactured for sailing, masts, etc and import d from New Zealand? So it's just a case of cutting them to length and gluing then in. I believe manufacture of a carbon tube can be automated, rather than hand laid which can only bring the costs down.
The pivot design on the other hand has an odd bend in the down tube, and is a non-round shape, suggesting they hand lay those parts specifically for the frame. I guess the moulds/oven could be significantly smaller & cheaper than a full front triangle. Possibly letting them do it in-house?
Yeah, tha seems to be the case looking at the first sneak peak pictures that had a raw finish and now the latest ones with the same finish and sharpie markings...
likely just a special edition paint job, but cool nonetheless
went to check in w/ Chris Canfield at Vampire last week. super interesting stuff. showed his steel and new titanium bike and discussed it all. detail pics here https://www.vitalmtb.com/features/vampire-bikes-basement-chris-canfield
Another picture.
And on the same page :
New Whyte eMTB releasing March 6th.
Looks like mechanical T-Type as per the housing at the rear, the housing near handlebar/headset that is routed internally and the shifter shape that is not looking like the usual square POD.
https://www.instagram.com/p/DGlXg40olT8/?hl=fr
With that said, if I had to choose between a frame bonded by pivot or the average pinkbiker, it would be a tough decision.
Would you take one with 316 stainless lugs and Reynolds tubes? I'll even throw in some redundancy with bolts and double lapped joints?
Solution: Oval tubes! Now the only way to get them to fit is also the way to perfectly align them!
I've ridden some pretty poorly aligned road & mountain bike frames in my day from the Big Boys, so esp. with the context of DIY, I think people would be more tolerant (hehe) that you'd think.
its just liability suicide.
This is why is a good business idea- Sell a DIY bamboo jig too!
Can we stop with the pipe dreaming, people would be more likely to glue their head to the table than properly use industrial adhesives in a frame jig.
Most people struggle with IKEA,
Tread softly, for you tread on my dreams
Maybe the new Forbidden...
I too dream about gluing my head to the table.
I recently had to re-attach the rear view mirror mounting button to my car's windscreen and, judging by the poor user reviews for the kit I used, the average person can't even manage to properly prep a glass/ceramic substrate (using a supplied cleaning/activation pad!) and apply a single drop of adhesive to it.
But it's only been up for a few months so it remains to be seen which group I'm in...
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/new-zipp-wheelset-with-integrated-tyre-pressure-sensor-spotted
tech wise, nothing that hasn’t been done before, but Zipp wheels and (presumably) tyrewiz combined into the same product.
Both brands under the SRAM umbrella, so will we see a mtb version soon?
This has been done on the 3zero Moto for some years already.
not integrated
Almost but not quite.
There will be a mechanical T-type spec option but that launches later when the embargo lifts.
What you see is the cable which runs to the battery from the electronic RD and the controller screen at the handlebar.
This looks like one hell of a bike though.
Looks nice for sure (Bosch gen5 800w)
New TRP brakes are compatible with Bosch ABS
Edit: this could be old news, not too plugged into ABS brake thing
I wasn't aware that Whyte were switching to wire power/battery as they're currently relying on the regular SRAM external battery on all of their ebikes right now.
Thanks for the clarifications.