At the severe risk of having someone quote this post in a reply with a link to a different tech-rumours banishment thread, I'll reply.It's not as...
At the severe risk of having someone quote this post in a reply with a link to a different tech-rumours banishment thread, I'll reply.
It's not as exciting as you'd think. The bike is supposed to use a 230x60 shock to deliver 165mm of travel. When I originally built it, I used a 230x57.5 shock as an emergency shock (Last year I broke an enduro frame on a Monday, drove two hours each way to pick up a Claymore frame from a shop on Wednesday, and left for a four-day Whistler closing weekend trip on a Thursday after staying up til 1 AM building the Claymore), and a 160mm fork - these were what I had in a pinch. The bike worked really well as a ~160mm FR/RR frame and I rode the season on that setup (with short cranks and presumably quite a bit less sag in real units than the full travel or more)
This spring when it came time to get proper suspension, I got a 180mm 38 and a 230x Float X on the basis that I thought air would work better on the bike for my use case. I ran the bike slightly over-stroked at 230x62.5 for most of the summer and then pulled out the final spacer to run 230x65mm for the fall. Napkin math says its approximately 180mm fr/rr. Cruising the forums, I couldn't find anybody (other than me) talking about doing this so I said screw it, why not try.
With adjustments, the platform works nice in every mode I've tried it. I am on a large frame and it's certainly outside what Deviate intended. I've absolutely bottomed the shock out in full-travel mode and there's no obvious binding or issues with the linkage and the rearward axle path keeps the wheel away from the seat tube. Will it work on other shocks and other sizes? I don't know. The Float X/X2 are nice because changing travel is a one beer job, so if it's wrong you can drink a second beer and put it back. Does it work better in ~180mm mode than how it was intended (or close to intended)? Its honestly far less dramatic of a difference than what I've felt messing around with on other platforms. I'd probably have to ride them back to back to be sure. I can say that, at least with the Float X, it retains the same level of agility it had before and is excellent at saving my ass.
But hey, don't take advice or ideas from me on what you should and shouldn't do to your frames. An upcoming project will involve not insignificant frame modifications on one of my old Instincts. I'd say don't tell Rocky but the thing has been outside of warranty for a long time.
Sorry for the topic derailment too:
I've been running a 230*65mm Superdeluxe coil lately on my XL claymore. So far so good... But fitting it might be a little more fliddly comparing to an air shock.
I'm a bit concerned about the setup tho: in order to fit the shock I needed to kinda "overclock" the lower link in its max range (dunno if it does make sense). By doing so I'm not sure that the current config would not damage the bearings or even frame structure -but again I'm nor engineer nor even a reliable tester, so if anybody at Deviate (or with an actual tech expertise) had an input...
(PS intended to Deviate guys: please, make those TiLander happen. Please.)
Only Deore will have a mechanical,12 speed version. SLX will go kaput, as will Saint, and XTR/XT/Deore will be 13 speed wireless, ANT+ compatible. XTR and XT...
Only Deore will have a mechanical,12 speed version. SLX will go kaput, as will Saint, and XTR/XT/Deore will be 13 speed wireless, ANT+ compatible.
XTR and XT will have Race (compact cassette, 2-pot brakes) and Enduro (wide range cassette, 4-pot brakes) versions.
Has anybody tried the DJI stuff on a bike yet? I'm curious how it compares to a ep801, cx line gen 5, specialized drive units. I've...
Has anybody tried the DJI stuff on a bike yet? I'm curious how it compares to a ep801, cx line gen 5, specialized drive units. I've liked the bosch and specialized units I've ridden.
I’ve ridden it a little as a riding buddy works for DJI and it’s a big step up in terms of power compared to Bosch, brose...
I’ve ridden it a little as a riding buddy works for DJI and it’s a big step up in terms of power compared to Bosch, brose and Shimano motors. The software and a few little extras built in seem really clever, the adaptive power mode (like Bosch e-Mtb) uses some built into the bike pitch and yaw sensors so it knows when the bike is going uphill and gives more assistance. The bike they’ve built it into seems decent (simple and well executed 4 bar but not going to get anyone overly excited) the main promise is in the motor and the software. Also helps that it’s about 1.5-2 kg lighter than an equivalent bike with a Bosch, brose or Shimano unit and battery.
Power is still impressive. With the high power you probably need a quite big battery, otherwise it'll be empty quite soon. For me its still more about the bike.
I hadn’t realised the new Bosch cx5 stuff was that much lighter, the older stuff was a fair bit heavier for equivalent battery capacity.
The DJI bike must have saved a chunk in the frame too as the specs on the bike ware more than acceptable for the intended riding, you’d probably swap in some heavier casing tyres but otherwise it’s capable right off the bat.
Talking to a inside guy at my shop about the new Shimano Groups.Their will be Deore / SLX / XT / XTR Wireless Sets at the...
Talking to a inside guy at my shop about the new Shimano Groups.
Their will be Deore / SLX / XT / XTR Wireless Sets at the beginning of 2025. They are not like the Road Groups with a wire to Accu System. Cassettes will be 9-45 and 10-51. he said their will be NO new Saint Group!
The Brake we all saw and thought it must be the new saints, will be the new XTR 4-Piston Brake.
Doesn’t make sense to have such cassettes, there’s only a 10% difference in range, not to mention the fact making both a 10t and a 9t cogs isn’t cost-effective. I guess you mean a 9-51t cassette. Also, can’t really believe they’ll axe the Saint - what’s gonna cover the dh- and fr-bikes? Some short-cage version of the regular groups? Better just call it the Saint derailleur, if there isn’t any real meaning in making an entire Saint group!
Only Deore will have a mechanical,12 speed version. SLX will go kaput, as will Saint, and XTR/XT/Deore will be 13 speed wireless, ANT+ compatible. XTR and XT...
Only Deore will have a mechanical,12 speed version. SLX will go kaput, as will Saint, and XTR/XT/Deore will be 13 speed wireless, ANT+ compatible.
XTR and XT will have Race (compact cassette, 2-pot brakes) and Enduro (wide range cassette, 4-pot brakes) versions.
ok im kinda laughing at this. I know they already made one with a vivid and that was funny enough but for some reason seeing an X2 stroked to make 125mm just tickles me. Norco went so unhinged with the Optic build and I absolutely love them for it. Short travel high pivot... Entire separate linkage to run MX... and offering stock Vivid/X2 options for 125 travel lol. Surely these product dev team meetings have gotta be a blast.
I love this!
I'm such a fan of the Optic, and any short travel ripper bike (Fugitive short stroked to 120mm running an X2) The additional air and oil volume is key with these units.
ok im kinda laughing at this. I know they already made one with a vivid and that was funny enough but for some reason seeing an X2 stroked to make 125mm just tickles me. Norco went so unhinged with the Optic build and I absolutely love them for it. Short travel high pivot... Entire separate linkage to run MX... and offering stock Vivid/X2 options for 125 travel lol. Surely these product dev team meetings have gotta be a blast.
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop...
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop going in the comments asking for a steel enduro rig or steel Roscoe or whatever lol. Give people an inch and they always take a mile. Short travel FS steel is quite unique. Would be cool to see it in the market. Can't quite remember the last time I got genuinely excited about a Trek release. 🤔
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler...
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
If Trek hadn’t put all their eggs in the Armstrong-worship basket 20 years ago, they’d probably still have functioning steel and aluminum production lines in house, like they did before they fully embraced the concept of 4 different levels of imported carbon for everyone…
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop...
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop going in the comments asking for a steel enduro rig or steel Roscoe or whatever lol. Give people an inch and they always take a mile. Short travel FS steel is quite unique. Would be cool to see it in the market. Can't quite remember the last time I got genuinely excited about a Trek release. 🤔
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler...
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
So Trek shouldn't make the bike?
People should have less options and there should be less cool bikes in the world because of a point that is always the case?
We have now entered Zero-Sum-Biking. Much preferred to the dreaded N+1. You are now not allowed to do stuff other people do.
The real question is, what about mechanical options?
If they can get the Deore shifter + derailleur under $400 I’m actually curious about wireless. If not, I really hope they don’t kill my beloved Deore 11 speed!
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it? I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never...
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
13 would be wild piling more unsprung rotating mass at the back of the bike all for what? I ride a good bit of road from my house to local trails on Deore 11sp and don’t even feel the need for one closer spaced gear in the middle of 12. (9T would be an upgrade at least) It’ll be a shame if Deore 11 goes away and us fanboys will have to move Cues. (hard to find durability info for mtb on Cues at this point)
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?All this wireless...
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?
All this wireless only and 13 speed does not really sound typical for them
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it? I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never...
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific cadence so smaller gear change should in theory help, XCO is already too dynamic for any of that to make sense and the same goes for trail and enduro riding.
I went from 12s back to 11s and honestly never felt any difference (wallet did though), I'd try 10s if there was a viable option for widerange cassette - Deore 10s exists but cassette is crazy heavy for non mechanized bikes and I know about microshift but reviews were not really good on mech durability so I stuck with tested Shimano.
In my opinion 12S and higer is heavily based on marketing as you can get the same wide range (like 50T and bigger cogs) on less gears and that is still completely usable for virtually anyone. The only real difference is the famous 500% range which resulted in new freehubs that are both more complex and consequently expensive - iirc XD cassettes are generally lighter, but this is not really the case for MS and again companies like Garbaruk have shown you can make really light HG cassettes with similar prices compared to the top XD/MS models. So if you compare 11s 11-50T to 12s 10-50T you get on paper 450% vs 500% range but in reality the only difference is from 11T to 10T on the lowest cog and that does not nearly results in actual 50% difference when you pedal... But yeah, more gears sounds cooler. Anyone else agrees with me?
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it? I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never...
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific...
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific cadence so smaller gear change should in theory help, XCO is already too dynamic for any of that to make sense and the same goes for trail and enduro riding.
I went from 12s back to 11s and honestly never felt any difference (wallet did though), I'd try 10s if there was a viable option for widerange cassette - Deore 10s exists but cassette is crazy heavy for non mechanized bikes and I know about microshift but reviews were not really good on mech durability so I stuck with tested Shimano.
In my opinion 12S and higer is heavily based on marketing as you can get the same wide range (like 50T and bigger cogs) on less gears and that is still completely usable for virtually anyone. The only real difference is the famous 500% range which resulted in new freehubs that are both more complex and consequently expensive - iirc XD cassettes are generally lighter, but this is not really the case for MS and again companies like Garbaruk have shown you can make really light HG cassettes with similar prices compared to the top XD/MS models. So if you compare 11s 11-50T to 12s 10-50T you get on paper 450% vs 500% range but in reality the only difference is from 11T to 10T on the lowest cog and that does not nearly results in actual 50% difference when you pedal... But yeah, more gears sounds cooler. Anyone else agrees with me?
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and Shimano developed 12s for road/touring commuter etc where they will sell 90% of their drive trains, and it has a legit usage there, so you can do 1x 12s setups on road and its actually usable.
We got given 12s because thats where the R&D tech went, they developed new chains and ramp tech bla bla bla, and just ported it over to us. You're right, you really don't need 12s vs 11s on a mountain bike, but they already made it anyway.
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it? I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never...
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific...
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific cadence so smaller gear change should in theory help, XCO is already too dynamic for any of that to make sense and the same goes for trail and enduro riding.
I went from 12s back to 11s and honestly never felt any difference (wallet did though), I'd try 10s if there was a viable option for widerange cassette - Deore 10s exists but cassette is crazy heavy for non mechanized bikes and I know about microshift but reviews were not really good on mech durability so I stuck with tested Shimano.
In my opinion 12S and higer is heavily based on marketing as you can get the same wide range (like 50T and bigger cogs) on less gears and that is still completely usable for virtually anyone. The only real difference is the famous 500% range which resulted in new freehubs that are both more complex and consequently expensive - iirc XD cassettes are generally lighter, but this is not really the case for MS and again companies like Garbaruk have shown you can make really light HG cassettes with similar prices compared to the top XD/MS models. So if you compare 11s 11-50T to 12s 10-50T you get on paper 450% vs 500% range but in reality the only difference is from 11T to 10T on the lowest cog and that does not nearly results in actual 50% difference when you pedal... But yeah, more gears sounds cooler. Anyone else agrees with me?
I went back to 11 speed on all of my bikes about 4 years ago. I find it far less finicky than 12 speed to set up and spending less on wear items suits me fine.
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and...
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and Shimano developed 12s for road/touring commuter etc where they will sell 90% of their drive trains, and it has a legit usage there, so you can do 1x 12s setups on road and its actually usable.
We got given 12s because thats where the R&D tech went, they developed new chains and ramp tech bla bla bla, and just ported it over to us. You're right, you really don't need 12s vs 11s on a mountain bike, but they already made it anyway.
Dura Ace R9200 12 speed was launched August 2021, XTR M9100 12 speed was launched 3 years prior in May 2018.
Sram Eagle was launched in March 2016, Sram Red (D1?) 12 speed was launched 3 years later in February 2019.
12 speed was always developed for mountain bike first. wide range cassette bigger than 11-36 were for mountain bike first with Sram XX1 10-42 in october 2012 and 2015 for Shimano M8000 11-42 cassette and another 12-15 month for XT M8000 11-46 cassette.
And no road is not 90% of Shimano Sales, I would say 50% is road, 30% budget low end stuff and 20% MTB but never found an accurate breakdown per segment from shimano financial reports as it's a publicly traded company in Japan.
There's also this in the regular bike catalog. The text which has had a filter applied, when copied, spits out this: R.DERAILL. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250-12 GS shadow+SHIFTLEV...
There's also this in the regular bike catalog.
The text which has had a filter applied, when copied, spits out this:
R.DERAILL. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250-12 GS shadow+
SHIFTLEV. Shimano XTR Di2 M9250
CRANKSET Shimano XTR M9200-12 Carbon 32T
BOTTOM BR. Shimano MT900 pressfit PA29 MTB
SPROCKET Shimano XTR M9200-12 / 9-45
CHAIN Shimano M9100-12
So that's Shimano's first(?) carbon cranks confirmed?
And the brake name is in full view, the new protos we've seen aren't saint? M9220 seems it would be the 4 piston variant.
We already have the outline of the group, with no reason to think KTM were lying/wrong (especially since the catalog has been edited now). There won't be anything 13s.
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop...
Speaking of trying things. Trek needs to stop baiting the steel Top Fuel and do a fun limited run of them. And people need to stop going in the comments asking for a steel enduro rig or steel Roscoe or whatever lol. Give people an inch and they always take a mile. Short travel FS steel is quite unique. Would be cool to see it in the market. Can't quite remember the last time I got genuinely excited about a Trek release. 🤔
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler...
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?All this wireless...
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?
All this wireless only and 13 speed does not really sound typical for them
I've also got that quote in mind and build my hopes upon it. But even if they make one, probably the electronic stuff is released first...
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler...
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
I didnt say Trek shouldnt make the bike,I suggested that you, or anyone else, could, likely for similar money, have a custom built bike from an...
I didnt say Trek shouldnt make the bike,
I suggested that you, or anyone else, could, likely for similar money, have a custom built bike from an independent (read boutique) builder...
You might be trying too hard to find something to argue about.....
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and...
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and Shimano developed 12s for road/touring commuter etc where they will sell 90% of their drive trains, and it has a legit usage there, so you can do 1x 12s setups on road and its actually usable.
We got given 12s because thats where the R&D tech went, they developed new chains and ramp tech bla bla bla, and just ported it over to us. You're right, you really don't need 12s vs 11s on a mountain bike, but they already made it anyway.
Dura Ace R9200 12 speed was launched August 2021, XTR M9100 12 speed was launched 3 years prior in May 2018.Sram Eagle was launched in March...
Dura Ace R9200 12 speed was launched August 2021, XTR M9100 12 speed was launched 3 years prior in May 2018.
Sram Eagle was launched in March 2016, Sram Red (D1?) 12 speed was launched 3 years later in February 2019.
12 speed was always developed for mountain bike first. wide range cassette bigger than 11-36 were for mountain bike first with Sram XX1 10-42 in october 2012 and 2015 for Shimano M8000 11-42 cassette and another 12-15 month for XT M8000 11-46 cassette.
And no road is not 90% of Shimano Sales, I would say 50% is road, 30% budget low end stuff and 20% MTB but never found an accurate breakdown per segment from shimano financial reports as it's a publicly traded company in Japan.
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:It seems like...
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
Thought the progressive nature of your frame would play better with a coil shock. That’s a general rule I know - got a linear frame: put an air shock on it which is progressive; got a progressive frame: go with a linear coil.
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?All this wireless...
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?
All this wireless only and 13 speed does not really sound typical for them
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:It seems like...
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
Scale, simply scale
Trek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as a boutique builder, its not likely to be a mass market, asia produced bike, so theres no scaling available to eat the associated costs. Id be willing to bet, its one of the most expensive mountain bikes they make, if they put it out.
If Trek does the front end in steel and keeps the rear end either carbon or aluminum from the existing model they can do it very reasonably priced. The rear end is where the complexity is with stuff like the yokes, dropouts, and bridges. The rocker link is also carryover. No new development or tooling cost for this. The major r&d costs of a new model are already sunk in the current design. Relatively small costs to now produce a steel front end and fatigue test it.
Also production shops in Taiwan are near idle right now so more than a few of them would likely bid low on the batch to keep their top welders busy.
Sorry for the topic derailment too:
I've been running a 230*65mm Superdeluxe coil lately on my XL claymore. So far so good... But fitting it might be a little more fliddly comparing to an air shock.
I'm a bit concerned about the setup tho: in order to fit the shock I needed to kinda "overclock" the lower link in its max range (dunno if it does make sense). By doing so I'm not sure that the current config would not damage the bearings or even frame structure -but again I'm nor engineer nor even a reliable tester, so if anybody at Deviate (or with an actual tech expertise) had an input...
(PS intended to Deviate guys: please, make those TiLander happen. Please.)
13s? My info was still 12s
I hadn’t realised the new Bosch cx5 stuff was that much lighter, the older stuff was a fair bit heavier for equivalent battery capacity.
The DJI bike must have saved a chunk in the frame too as the specs on the bike ware more than acceptable for the intended riding, you’d probably swap in some heavier casing tyres but otherwise it’s capable right off the bat.
Doesn’t make sense to have such cassettes, there’s only a 10% difference in range, not to mention the fact making both a 10t and a 9t cogs isn’t cost-effective. I guess you mean a 9-51t cassette. Also, can’t really believe they’ll axe the Saint - what’s gonna cover the dh- and fr-bikes? Some short-cage version of the regular groups? Better just call it the Saint derailleur, if there isn’t any real meaning in making an entire Saint group!
Shut your damn dirty mouth!
13 speed wireless, 12 speed mechanical. The 9-51 enduro cassettes (and 9-45 for XC) are the 13s ones. Mechanical Deore will still be 12s, 10-51.
I love this!
I'm such a fan of the Optic, and any short travel ripper bike (Fugitive short stroked to 120mm running an X2) The additional air and oil volume is key with these units.
(Can be run as a full 275 as well.....)
For similar money you could go to any number of boutique steel bike mfg's and get a custom sized steel bike, that would be infinitely cooler than any Trek would ever be. Support those little guys out there making rad stuff
If Trek hadn’t put all their eggs in the Armstrong-worship basket 20 years ago, they’d probably still have functioning steel and aluminum production lines in house, like they did before they fully embraced the concept of 4 different levels of imported carbon for everyone…
So Trek shouldn't make the bike?
People should have less options and there should be less cool bikes in the world because of a point that is always the case?
We have now entered Zero-Sum-Biking. Much preferred to the dreaded N+1. You are now not allowed to do stuff other people do.
Are there any news for an updated Firebird?
If they can get the Deore shifter + derailleur under $400 I’m actually curious about wireless. If not, I really hope they don’t kill my beloved Deore 11 speed!
there was spy shots a while back running a similar DW6 Linkage from the Phoenix on a lug prototype but I doubt it's coming anytime soon.
Honest question here: what's the benefit of 13s on MTB, is anyone asking for it?
I'd love 13 speed on my 1X road whip, but have never once wanted closer spacing on a trail or enduro bike. I LOVED the move to 12 speed as someone who climbs big hills and started 1-by in the 9 speed days (I was young an also had a SS). The benefit of 12 speed was increased range, and I feel gear spacing is appropriate (now with Transmission improving the sucky 42-52 jump). I don't see additional range being needed, it's the pie-plate and derailleur arm that's the limitation at this point.
Either way, competition is good, so I hope the new Shimano stuff sells well and pushes prices back from the stratosphere.
Didn’t the Shimano guy on the pinkbike podcast say that one of their goals is to always have a well working mechanical XT drivetrain?
All this wireless only and 13 speed does not really sound typical for them
13 would be wild piling more unsprung rotating mass at the back of the bike all for what? I ride a good bit of road from my house to local trails on Deore 11sp and don’t even feel the need for one closer spaced gear in the middle of 12. (9T would be an upgrade at least) It’ll be a shame if Deore 11 goes away and us fanboys will have to move Cues. (hard to find durability info for mtb on Cues at this point)
13sp GRX would be cool
thats what XT RD-M8130 is for
I only see very specific group benefiting and that would be people riding marathons and super long endurance stuff/bikepacking with MTBs where you could target specific cadence so smaller gear change should in theory help, XCO is already too dynamic for any of that to make sense and the same goes for trail and enduro riding.
I went from 12s back to 11s and honestly never felt any difference (wallet did though), I'd try 10s if there was a viable option for widerange cassette - Deore 10s exists but cassette is crazy heavy for non mechanized bikes and I know about microshift but reviews were not really good on mech durability so I stuck with tested Shimano.
In my opinion 12S and higer is heavily based on marketing as you can get the same wide range (like 50T and bigger cogs) on less gears and that is still completely usable for virtually anyone. The only real difference is the famous 500% range which resulted in new freehubs that are both more complex and consequently expensive - iirc XD cassettes are generally lighter, but this is not really the case for MS and again companies like Garbaruk have shown you can make really light HG cassettes with similar prices compared to the top XD/MS models. So if you compare 11s 11-50T to 12s 10-50T you get on paper 450% vs 500% range but in reality the only difference is from 11T to 10T on the lowest cog and that does not nearly results in actual 50% difference when you pedal... But yeah, more gears sounds cooler. Anyone else agrees with me?
12s was developed for road bikes, and just ported over to MTB. Were not special and a tiny tiny portion of the bike market. SRAM and Shimano developed 12s for road/touring commuter etc where they will sell 90% of their drive trains, and it has a legit usage there, so you can do 1x 12s setups on road and its actually usable.
We got given 12s because thats where the R&D tech went, they developed new chains and ramp tech bla bla bla, and just ported it over to us. You're right, you really don't need 12s vs 11s on a mountain bike, but they already made it anyway.
I went back to 11 speed on all of my bikes about 4 years ago. I find it far less finicky than 12 speed to set up and spending less on wear items suits me fine.
Dura Ace R9200 12 speed was launched August 2021, XTR M9100 12 speed was launched 3 years prior in May 2018.
Sram Eagle was launched in March 2016, Sram Red (D1?) 12 speed was launched 3 years later in February 2019.
12 speed was always developed for mountain bike first. wide range cassette bigger than 11-36 were for mountain bike first with Sram XX1 10-42 in october 2012 and 2015 for Shimano M8000 11-42 cassette and another 12-15 month for XT M8000 11-46 cassette.
And no road is not 90% of Shimano Sales, I would say 50% is road, 30% budget low end stuff and 20% MTB but never found an accurate breakdown per segment from shimano financial reports as it's a publicly traded company in Japan.
https://contents.xj-storage.jp/xcontents/AS02673/b8c14aac/6ce8/47d2/8bec/5bfa3f41b8ff/20241029154741018s.pdf
We already have the outline of the group, with no reason to think KTM were lying/wrong (especially since the catalog has been edited now). There won't be anything 13s.
I didnt say Trek shouldnt make the bike,
I suggested that you, or anyone else, could, likely for similar money, have a custom built bike from an independent (read boutique) builder...
You might be trying too hard to find something to argue about.....
I've also got that quote in mind and build my hopes upon it. But even if they make one, probably the electronic stuff is released first...
I'll say this as someone who owns a custom designed boutique full suspension steel bike made by a single Canadian guy which is rad:
It seems like your theory that for similar money you could go full custom is based upon the assumption that Trek wouldn't simply put this into production in Asia after prototyping it a bit more. If they do that I'm not sure why this would really be any more expensive than something comparable in their lineup. Other than stuff like Marino (which IMO, is not comparable), anything approaching this level of refinement is going to be significantly more expensive. Thinking of builders off the top of my head, a fully from Waltworks runs 4k USD, Daambuilt is like $4750 CAD, Wildwood's are over 6, and even Ferrum, once you get onto a platform with similar refinement to Trek's, is 3500 USD. That gives Trek quite a bit of breathing room, especially if they're done over in Asia. Further, none of the above-quoted prices include rear suspension.
@hitar - its funny you say the Claymore's leverage curve seems like the right application for a coil but that's exactly why I went air - I wanted more control over the ramp in the linear initial and mid stroke and also keep the bike similar but differentiated from my Aurum HSP.
@nico - I guess we'll have to see how the frame/bearings/linkages hold up!
Wow your totally right. I stand. Corrected. Thanks for the info.
Thought the progressive nature of your frame would play better with a coil shock. That’s a general rule I know - got a linear frame: put an air shock on it which is progressive; got a progressive frame: go with a linear coil.
Yes. And that new Saint is still in the works.
Scale, simply scale
Trek doing a limited run of steel bikes, that they prototype, test, R&D, blah blah blah is going to be the same money as a boutique builder, its not likely to be a mass market, asia produced bike, so theres no scaling available to eat the associated costs. Id be willing to bet, its one of the most expensive mountain bikes they make, if they put it out.
If Trek does the front end in steel and keeps the rear end either carbon or aluminum from the existing model they can do it very reasonably priced. The rear end is where the complexity is with stuff like the yokes, dropouts, and bridges. The rocker link is also carryover. No new development or tooling cost for this. The major r&d costs of a new model are already sunk in the current design. Relatively small costs to now produce a steel front end and fatigue test it.
Also production shops in Taiwan are near idle right now so more than a few of them would likely bid low on the batch to keep their top welders busy.