MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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3587
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SI
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783rd
11/11/2024 11:08am

There have been numerous report where mixing and matching mineral oils between manufacturers caused some changes in the seals. Maybe not structural, but something was happening. And all manufacturers state their brakes can only be used with such and such brake oil.

Any DOT x fluid can be put in any DOT x compatible brake. You can get the correct fluid in any local automotive parts shop, unlike mineral oil for a finnicky brake if it's too esoteric.

4
11/11/2024 11:18am
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

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Eae903
Posts
129
Joined
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Location
Laramie, WY US
11/11/2024 11:20am Edited Date/Time 11/11/2024 11:20am
Primoz wrote:
There have been numerous report where mixing and matching mineral oils between manufacturers caused some changes in the seals. Maybe not structural, but something was happening...

There have been numerous report where mixing and matching mineral oils between manufacturers caused some changes in the seals. Maybe not structural, but something was happening. And all manufacturers state their brakes can only be used with such and such brake oil.

Any DOT x fluid can be put in any DOT x compatible brake. You can get the correct fluid in any local automotive parts shop, unlike mineral oil for a finnicky brake if it's too esoteric.

You can see the differences in the mineral oils between brands too, pour a little out and magura, Shimano, maxima, and finish line oils all have a slightly different viscosity, finish line is the thickest and sram/maxima seems the thinnest to me. TRP/tektro and Shimano are pretty much the same though. I wonder if the different viscosities and frictions are what can cause issues with the seals, premature wear or something like that. I would love to test out running different oils in different brakes to see how the wear changes. 

1
TimBud
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2/29/2012
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GB
Fantasy
875th
11/11/2024 11:27am
Primoz wrote:
There have been numerous report where mixing and matching mineral oils between manufacturers caused some changes in the seals. Maybe not structural, but something was happening...

There have been numerous report where mixing and matching mineral oils between manufacturers caused some changes in the seals. Maybe not structural, but something was happening. And all manufacturers state their brakes can only be used with such and such brake oil.

Any DOT x fluid can be put in any DOT x compatible brake. You can get the correct fluid in any local automotive parts shop, unlike mineral oil for a finnicky brake if it's too esoteric.

Oh you DOT fan boys 😆

It is a shame that there is no standard for mineral oils. A “DOT M” would suffice.

I never have found it hard to keep a personal stock of my preferred mineral oil though. And i do like that when you open the bottle it lasts more than 6 months.

I should clarify that whilst i’m a fan of a good quality mineral brake, my last and current brakes are DOT. And they’ve both been good.
 

3
2
sethimus
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9/20/2014
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CH
Fantasy
2434th
11/11/2024 11:41am
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a...

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

that's just plain wrong, there are options:

Trickstuff Bionol Bremsöl 1 Liter für Scheibenbremsen

2
1
NicoZesty96
Posts
389
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
11/11/2024 11:50am
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Nobble
Posts
104
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
11/11/2024 12:13pm
Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has...

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real information on them other than marketing material.

I’d love to see an actual Technical Data Sheet for them.


Past a certain point it doesn’t matter though. The ETFE liner in your brake hose will melt at 260-280C anyway.

1
sethimus
Posts
262
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Location
CH
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2434th
11/11/2024 12:36pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2024 12:39pm
Nobble wrote:
Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.For example, the minimum...

Dot 5.1 has a slightly better minimum spec than dot 4, but once you get into high performance fluids it really doesn’t matter.


For example, the minimum “wet” boiling point for dot 4 and 5.1 is 311 or 356 Fahrenheit respectively.

Redline RF-600 dot 4 has a wet boiling point of 400f.

Wilwood XR race dot 5.1 has a wet boiling point of 432f.
 

Dry boiling points for both are over 600f. Higher than any mineral oil I’m aware of.

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has...

https://www.radicperformance.com/brake-fluid-tech Bionol and Gold Hydraulic oil boil over 400 celsius, although it seems that one of the best performing mineral fluids is the plutoline, which has a way lower boil point, so i'm not sure how this influences performances on mtb brakes

Nobble wrote:
Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real...

Because their claimed performance is such an outlier, I’m slightly skeptical of the Bionol and Gold fluid claims. I haven’t been able to find any real information on them other than marketing material.

I’d love to see an actual Technical Data Sheet for them.


Past a certain point it doesn’t matter though. The ETFE liner in your brake hose will melt at 260-280C anyway.

https://www.mrc-trading.de/media/db/63/36/1715758579/VAR-D-BHO-0.pdf (in german of course, since you could't be bothered to use si units earlier instead of your imperial units)

there you go, the one for bionol

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5
Primoz
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11/11/2024 12:47pm

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

1
Nobble
Posts
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Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
11/11/2024 1:11pm
Primoz wrote:

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

I think it does have the relevant info though.


If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per astm d2887.


I don’t know why they say there’s a 60c range on it though.

1
11/11/2024 1:47pm
Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a...

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

sethimus wrote:
that's just plain wrong, there are options:

that's just plain wrong, there are options:

Trickstuff Bionol Bremsöl 1 Liter für Scheibenbremsen

I have faith in Radic and tirckstuff that those fluids work well in their products and have been tested for it, but my experience with bio-based oils replacing mineral oil in suspension products (seal swelling etc) would make me wary of putting it in mainstream brands not designed for it

2
sethimus
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CH
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11/11/2024 1:48pm
Primoz wrote:

That's a safety data sheet which is far from a technical specification... 

Nobble wrote:
I think it does have the relevant info though.If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per...

I think it does have the relevant info though.


If I’m correctly looking at that, “Siedebeginn” is “start of boiling” which is 360c And they test per astm d2887.


I don’t know why they say there’s a 60c range on it though.

because its the range in which boiling occurs:

SECTION 9: Physical and Chemical Properties

 

9.1. Information on Basic Physical and Chemical Properties

Physical State: Liquid

Color: Not specified

Odor: Characteristic

 

Testing Standards

pH Value: Not determined

 

Changes of State

Melting Point: Not determined

Initial Boiling Point / Boiling Range / Temperature at 50% Mass Loss:

Approx. 360°C / 360°C-460°C / 420°C

ASTM D2887 / DIN 51435

Flash Point: >190°C (ASTM D92)

 

Flammability

Solid: Not applicable

Gas: Not applicable

Lower Explosive Limit: Not determined

Upper Explosive Limit: Not determined

 

Self-Ignition Temperature

Solid: Not applicable

Gas: Not applicable

Decomposition Temperature: Not determined

 

Oxidizing Properties: Non-oxidizing

Vapor Pressure: Not determined

Density (at 20°C): 0.88 g/cm³

Water Solubility: Insoluble

Solubility in Other Solvents: Not determined

Partition Coefficient: Not determined

 

Kinematic Viscosity (at 40°C / 100°C):

Approx. 8.56 mm²/s / Approx. 2.80 mm²/s

ASTM D7279 / ASTM D2270

Vapor Density: Not determined

Evaporation Loss (NOACK, 250°C, 1 hour): 15.6%

ASTM D5800 / DIN 51581

 

Other Information

Solid Content: Not determined

Viscosity Index: 200

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sethimus
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CH
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11/11/2024 1:55pm

petrus hydrauliköl (labelled bionol, only available like that in switzerland) vs. market leader (shimano) liquid to 100% gaseous chart:

2
2
shreda
Posts
153
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Location
GB
11/11/2024 2:52pm

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

17
Nobble
Posts
104
Joined
9/24/2010
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
11/11/2024 2:54pm

I’m not a petrochemical engineer, but I’m assuming there’s a 0-100% range because the fluid is a mix of chemicals with different heat capacities and boiling points? If so, I’m not sure the 100% boiling temperature would matter.


I think as soon as any significant percentage of the fluid boils, your brake is useless until it cools. (No idea what percent would be the threshold, my guess would be 2-5%)

1
noodlenosteeze
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Magna, UT US
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11/11/2024 4:17pm

Let's stop arguing about boiling points and get back to rumors.

I go by which mineral oil tastes the best anyways. 

40
boozed
Posts
309
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
11/11/2024 4:56pm Edited Date/Time 11/11/2024 7:32pm
Primoz wrote:
DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for...

DOT fluid is a paint thinner but is not particularly toxic to humans. I mean, it is if you drink it and can be irritating for the skin after prolonged exposure, but it's nothing wearing gloves doesn't remedy. Otherwise it is more or less completely deactivated by just spraying it with water as opposed to mineral oil which is not water solluble.

Based on the comments as to why Sram was pushed to move to mineral oil vs. DOT fluid, looks like it's mostly the paint that is the issue...

Eae903 wrote:
Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue...

Having had a shop replace my sram brakes with some maguras before and them not wiping the spilled dot fluid off the frame, the paint issue is real. It totally ate my frames finish away. On the other hand, it's not a super good reason to move away from it entirely. I honestly like dot fluid, and I think dot fluid brakes remain more consistent in wet areas because it mixes with the water. Sure it reduces the boiling point a bit, but it's consistently reduced across the whole system, unlike with mineral oil where you'll have water in the line with one boiling point and mineral oil with a different one. Brakes get hot, water turns to steam, becomes compressible, spongy brakes. Bleed your brakes regularly and there are no issues with either fluid so it's all moot anyways. The real question is "Dot 4 or dot 5.1?"

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a...

Yup, both fluids are about equally bad - I think its just a perception that people think mineral oil is "friendlier" despite being you know, a petroleum product....

So it seems weird to target dot fluid when so much more of it is used in cars and there are far worse materials like PTFE still being used in chain lubes and suspension oil 

Some of the chemicals used in DOT 4/5.1 are used as ingredients in consumer goods at low levels, but then petroleum byproducts are used in some foods and as the sole ingredient in some consumer goods (e.g. baby oil and vaseline).

The DOT 4/5.1 fluids we're talking about are derived from petrochemicals too, but they require more significant chemical synthesis.  Either way it's probably not a very meaningful point of difference given the amounts we deal with.  But I'm not a chemical engineer so I've already gone way outside my expertise.

2
NicoZesty96
Posts
389
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
11/11/2024 6:47pm
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more wednesday" so let's see

6
haen
Posts
92
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
11/11/2024 7:42pm
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

4
Jotegr
Posts
119
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6/28/2024
Location
Nakusp, BC CA
11/11/2024 11:00pm

Let's stop arguing about boiling points and get back to rumors.

I go by which mineral oil tastes the best anyways. 

So long as it's in moderation. The mineral oil is a known laxative! 

3
2
NicoZesty96
Posts
389
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
11/12/2024 12:51am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

haen wrote:
Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdfThe...

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

wasn't it on one of the Trickstuff Trick Staff bike checks? all links lead to nothing now since they rebuilt the website

1
11/12/2024 5:57am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2024 5:59am

I always thought the name DB8 was funny considering the Mavens were released shortly after and also use mineral oil. My thought was: "sooo who's even debating anymore? That DB8 was short lived." Now I know who's still DB8-ing. 😭

1
4
haen
Posts
92
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
11/12/2024 7:44am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

haen wrote:
Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdfThe...

Intend built a coil shock a couple years ago with an adjustable coil in collaboration with a student's graduate engineering program. Very cool concept.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1609691/FULLTEXT01.pdf

The shock was built and there are photos of it somewhere on the internet but I can't find them.

wasn't it on one of the Trickstuff Trick Staff bike checks? all links lead to nothing now since they rebuilt the website

That sounds right.

2
11/12/2024 7:47am Edited Date/Time 11/12/2024 8:31am
shreda wrote:

Back to rumors.

Check out this shock. Looks like a new coil shock from Intend…

according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more...

according to Harz enduro in the comments, a german guy that makes heaps of video with all the small companies in germany "we might know more wednesday" so let's see

Intend has a countdown on their instagram story today that will end the morning of November 13th so that seems to line up!

4
trytochaseme
Posts
5
Joined
8/7/2018
Location
Cedar Springs, MI US
11/13/2024 5:06am
haen wrote:

That sounds right.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyvLifFt6Jp/?igsh=MWZxY3o4N3FrcXdsZg==
Found! It was on the Rides of Trickstuff #8

No full review but the pics are here 

haen wrote:

Well done! 

New shock from Intend looks very different. We'll see what tomorrow brings. 

Looks like we have been fooled. They announced new stem, rocksteady V2 cranks, and blackline forks in stock. But no new of coil shock 

4

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