MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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seanfisseli
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8/8/2024 12:30pm

Wonder if you could tune a tire sidewall to be less linear and more progressive….

2
8/8/2024 1:41pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2024 1:42pm

Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?) reservoir attached to the rim to control tire rebound. You pump your tires up to like 40 PSI, but then this reservoir has a piston that moves up and down that allows your tires to have a real, effective larger air volume but when you compress the piston to get more air volume the piston returns based on a rebound shim stack 

EDIT this could live in the hub and use a hollow spoke and somehow double as a push button air refiller (this already exists)

image 14 

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Jotegr
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8/8/2024 1:51pm

With the addition of sealant it should be plenty damp in there.

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seanfisseli
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8/8/2024 3:27pm
Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?)...

Ok forgive the quality I drew this on on canva.com with a touchpad, after work I can CAD it up but hear me out- a dampen(ing?) reservoir attached to the rim to control tire rebound. You pump your tires up to like 40 PSI, but then this reservoir has a piston that moves up and down that allows your tires to have a real, effective larger air volume but when you compress the piston to get more air volume the piston returns based on a rebound shim stack 

EDIT this could live in the hub and use a hollow spoke and somehow double as a push button air refiller (this already exists)

image 14 

Unfortunately some ignoramus will end up trying to move your invention to the frame, adding more weight and complexity to the elegant MTB

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1
8/8/2024 3:43pm Edited Date/Time 8/8/2024 3:46pm
HexonJuan wrote:
1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact...

1. An application that could use the hell outta this is fat bike tires. Likely a minority in this thread, but getting a bigger, floatier contact patch without having to drop to low single digits would be a helluvalot of fun, what with making a zippier experience on snow or beach days.

2. Getting a casing that damps out vibration better will allow suspension to work better. Watch any of the super slow mo huck to flat vids and you can see the hiccup the rebounding tires adds to the suspension action, basically bouncing the bike a bit before the damper can continue or switch directions. Someone somewhere has gotta be doing this kinda slowmo for companies on courses to better understand all the dynamics at play. Is that rebounding tire a contributing reason traction gets dicey in roots and rocks?

3. Carrying a bit of a theme from #2, what about inserts that use activated carbon a 'la TruTune to get the air to behave a bit more linearly in the tire to control the reboundin' rubber's oscillations. Obv would require some tinkering because I'm sure the sealant would have something to say to the carbon, but innovation starts from what ifs.

I was thinking about something like #3 when I saw the huck to flat videos, though at the time not with activated carbon, just with a standard valve/bladder that could be in a canister on the hub and a hose to the rim (opposite to the valve, and everything well balanced), but I have absolutely no idea of the air volume required to move, and that's some additional undamped mass. The canister could also be on the frame (or inside the frame), but that would require a hub with a circular valve to let some air move from the tire to the frame... 

So your idea looks much simpler if that could work^^

 

Edit : I started typing before the 2-3 previous posts and only sent it later^^

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1llumA
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8/8/2024 6:13pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les...

So it sounds pretty novel! Read all about it on the other site, and if AP was actually running 30 psi in the wet at Les Gets, then it really is a big change from existing tire tech. I believe AP has been on the French nearly-flat-tires program for a while prior to these. Very cool to see actual innovation in tire tech, although it sounds like this is more a case of borrowing an existing idea from another application (as it often is in the bike industry). And it sounds like it worked as advertised on the discontinued Maxxis Radiale road tires. Which begs the question: what are the tradeoffs to this construction technique and why didn't this happen sooner?

I don't know how much room there is to improve tire materials and tech, but I know there's tons of room to improve performance. Bikes are so good these days, but I feel like tires are still uniquely an area with so many trade-offs and compromises. A modern 150mm bike can pretty much do anything from XC to DH and not give up that much time in either*, but a modern mid-casing "trail" tire is A LOT slower than an XC tire and A LOT less grippy, durable, and stable than a DH tire. Ditto for choosing tire pressure, inserts, etc- you can't have it all.

*if you switch to appropriate tires and pressures for the event

Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing of BicycleRollingResistance people are often now basing their tire purchase on the road because they are 1-2 watts faster at 32kph per tire (decent road at 10w and good tires are below 8w). We won't know for sure until we get 3rd party rolling resistance data on those Schwalbe radial tire and it's not really the type of tires that BCR test usually. 

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1
8/8/2024 6:59pm
1llumA wrote:
Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing...

Schwalbe was quietly saying in most article that rolling resistance is significantly worse which will be a automatic no for XC/gravel/road. Thanks to the independant testing of BicycleRollingResistance people are often now basing their tire purchase on the road because they are 1-2 watts faster at 32kph per tire (decent road at 10w and good tires are below 8w). We won't know for sure until we get 3rd party rolling resistance data on those Schwalbe radial tire and it's not really the type of tires that BCR test usually. 

What article did you see the mention of poor rolling resistance? I mean, I did initially think that as I read "30% larger contact patch on ground". More sticky rubber contacting the ground is more friction. But a lot of rolling resistance is from casing deformation (less of a component of MTB vs. road tire though because of the tall treads). This radial casing should be more 'supple' which would lower rolling resistance, but if it's putting more of a contact patch on the ground vs. a normal tire, then it will be slower rolling. 

This ties into my other point which is that it looks like Schwalbe is leaning heavy into ebikes here with these radial tires (if they roll slower) and that new set of "Shredda" tires that are basically mud spikes with stiffer knobs. In the Loam Wolf video about these Shredda tires the Schwalbe rep says that tire is for ebikes and to "push the limits of what's possible on a climb". I'm thinking moto tires: tall ass lugs that will dig into and pillage soils with the help of an extra 400w from the ebike on the climb. Brappp. 

 

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1llumA
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8/8/2024 7:12pm

I was wrong, I read again the vital, pinkbike and bikerumor and only the bikerumor article mention worse rolling resistance: '' More tire flex does mean a bit of increased rolling resistance, so you won’t see Schwalbe Radial tires blowing up the XC, gravel, or road scene right away.''

3
ahleic09
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Bend, OR US
8/8/2024 7:34pm

Certainly makes sense. The layout of the radial tire resembles lacrosse stick mesh and high-tech sail cloth, both are applications where preferential flex along one axis is advantageous.

What this really reminds me of is X-pac sail cloth which has been readily adapted for making bike frame bags (Revelate, rogue panda….) 


Cool to see, makes me wonder if we’ll we might get carbon parts (bars or frames) with bonded exoskeletons of directional mesh to tune flex along an axis. Probably not but I can dream 

1
8/8/2024 8:50pm

enduro-mtb also mentions it:

"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing should offer the same rolling resistance as a Magic Mary in the old casing, which is mainly due to the tread pattern."

And again in their summary,

"an excellent all-rounder provided you can leave with slightly more rolling resistance."

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Kango
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8/8/2024 10:41pm

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

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Evil96
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8/9/2024 12:44am
enduro-mtb also mentions it:"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing...

enduro-mtb also mentions it:

"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing should offer the same rolling resistance as a Magic Mary in the old casing, which is mainly due to the tread pattern."

And again in their summary,

"an excellent all-rounder provided you can leave with slightly more rolling resistance."

sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are definetely what you want

5
8/9/2024 3:22am

One thing about rolling resistance off road, casing being able to flex and absorb a bump (rock/root/etc) can lower effective rolling resistance since it is not deflecting. Deflecting off of a bump takes energy away from moving forward, increasing effective rolling resistance. 

Mostly I agree with Nico in the post above, looks like a good front tire. I currently swap between a Magic Mary and a Tacky Chan depending on the seasons. MM is great in fall/ winter to punch through the leaves and pine needles on the trails, but as trails dry out in spring/summer I find the side knobs folding on some of the harder packed sections of trail and switch to a TC. This looks like it could replace both and be one front tire year round here in GA. 

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piratetrails
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8/9/2024 4:07am Edited Date/Time 8/9/2024 4:08am
enduro-mtb also mentions it:"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing...

enduro-mtb also mentions it:

"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing should offer the same rolling resistance as a Magic Mary in the old casing, which is mainly due to the tread pattern."

And again in their summary,

"an excellent all-rounder provided you can leave with slightly more rolling resistance."

Evil96 wrote:
sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are...

sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are definetely what you want

Idk man as one of the many people who’s just switched from an Assegai up front to a Kryptotal front does make more of a difference than you think. I even went back and looked at my time/calories burned on a 1mi, gradual, 10-ish mph, road climb on my normal route and both were lower. Wasn’t Pierron running a cut Dirty Dan in the front and an uncut in the rear at Les Gets?

1
jma853
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Kabul AF
8/9/2024 5:25am
enduro-mtb also mentions it:"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing...

enduro-mtb also mentions it:

"However, the new casing’s increased deformation is expected to result in slightly higher rolling resistance. According to Schwalbe, the Albert with radial casing should offer the same rolling resistance as a Magic Mary in the old casing, which is mainly due to the tread pattern."

And again in their summary,

"an excellent all-rounder provided you can leave with slightly more rolling resistance."

Evil96 wrote:
sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are...

sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are definetely what you want

Idk man as one of the many people who’s just switched from an Assegai up front to a Kryptotal front does make more of a difference...

Idk man as one of the many people who’s just switched from an Assegai up front to a Kryptotal front does make more of a difference than you think. I even went back and looked at my time/calories burned on a 1mi, gradual, 10-ish mph, road climb on my normal route and both were lower. Wasn’t Pierron running a cut Dirty Dan in the front and an uncut in the rear at Les Gets?

How much lower?

HexonJuan
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8/9/2024 6:49am

Making a tire is a helluva balancing act. If you want the utmost traction, drag is gonna be more pronounced and vice versa if you want the least amount of rolling resistance.  Traction and rolling resistance are intrinsically intertwined. I've noticed it on road tires where super grippy tires that provide corner lean so deep you knock a pedal on the pave in flat corners just don't have the same zip up to speed as a harder compound. For my local environs it gets even more fussy as the temps drop. That same super grippy tire turns into a slippery eel below freezing. Same happens to a harder tire, but IME just not as starkly.

 

4
Primoz
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SI
8/9/2024 8:20am

It's been quite well known most soft tyres become rock hard under ~10°C, Conti's Black Chilli compound was supposedly very good at not doing this though.

2
8/9/2024 11:01am

Schwalbe released the angle numbers on their radial construction, right?  Would there be any validity to measuring the angles seen in the crosshatching on the sidewalls of ridden tires from other brands and then comparing those numbers against Schwable's numbers to see if they're really that different?  If that makes sense in theory, could you get an accurate enough measurement through the sidewall to make it meaningful? Obviously you could expose the casing of a worn out tire if you really wanted to take it that far . . .

I realize the tpi and other things come into play and the angles don't tell the whole story.  But that's the main thing that's claimed to be novel and a differentiator, so I'd be curious on the numbers.

2
piratetrails
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8/9/2024 11:16am
Evil96 wrote:
sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are...

sounds to me like a great chasing for a front tyre, slower rolling means nothing up front compared to the back, more grip and compliance are definetely what you want

Idk man as one of the many people who’s just switched from an Assegai up front to a Kryptotal front does make more of a difference...

Idk man as one of the many people who’s just switched from an Assegai up front to a Kryptotal front does make more of a difference than you think. I even went back and looked at my time/calories burned on a 1mi, gradual, 10-ish mph, road climb on my normal route and both were lower. Wasn’t Pierron running a cut Dirty Dan in the front and an uncut in the rear at Les Gets?

jma853 wrote:

How much lower?

Enough to convince me there’s something to the famous DHR on the front setup 😉

2
2
ShapeThings
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8/9/2024 12:57pm
Schwalbe released the angle numbers on their radial construction, right?  Would there be any validity to measuring the angles seen in the crosshatching on the sidewalls...

Schwalbe released the angle numbers on their radial construction, right?  Would there be any validity to measuring the angles seen in the crosshatching on the sidewalls of ridden tires from other brands and then comparing those numbers against Schwable's numbers to see if they're really that different?  If that makes sense in theory, could you get an accurate enough measurement through the sidewall to make it meaningful? Obviously you could expose the casing of a worn out tire if you really wanted to take it that far . . .

I realize the tpi and other things come into play and the angles don't tell the whole story.  But that's the main thing that's claimed to be novel and a differentiator, so I'd be curious on the numbers.

They aren’t revealing the angle as it’s proprietary (mentioned in review video I watched yesterday). But I’m sure competitors already have some and are examining. 

2
8/9/2024 7:49pm

Looks like Myriam is now on the steel chainstay

IMG 3447
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Fred_Pop
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8/10/2024 5:43am
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

Pro is the new name for their high end line.

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TEAMROBOT
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8/10/2024 9:22am
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

In my experience, "Pro" tends to mean it costs more. Also see "Elite," "Ultimate," or the model with the most extra letters after it.

21
JVP
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8/10/2024 1:27pm
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

Prohibitively expensive 

10
8/10/2024 8:18pm
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

TEAMROBOT wrote:

In my experience, "Pro" tends to mean it costs more. Also see "Elite," "Ultimate," or the model with the most extra letters after it.

Don’t forget “Factory”

4
thresh
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8/10/2024 8:47pm
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

TEAMROBOT wrote:

In my experience, "Pro" tends to mean it costs more. Also see "Elite," "Ultimate," or the model with the most extra letters after it.

It’s about 61 euro per Albert gravity pro on R2 right now, which is admittedly higher than 42 euro per Tacky chan, but still very reasonable for us unfortunate enough to live in the US with crazy msrp prices for maxxis

2
Evil96
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Portogruaro, VE IT
8/10/2024 8:54pm
Kango wrote:

Does anyone know what the new Pro designation in the tire means?

TEAMROBOT wrote:

In my experience, "Pro" tends to mean it costs more. Also see "Elite," "Ultimate," or the model with the most extra letters after it.

thresh wrote:
It’s about 61 euro per Albert gravity pro on R2 right now, which is admittedly higher than 42 euro per Tacky chan, but still very reasonable...

It’s about 61 euro per Albert gravity pro on R2 right now, which is admittedly higher than 42 euro per Tacky chan, but still very reasonable for us unfortunate enough to live in the US with crazy msrp prices for maxxis

Still, all these comments on prices are dumb af

The Tacky on the same website was around 60 when it was a new thing, and the current price is already down, wait a bit and the Albert will be sub 50€ like always 

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TEAMROBOT
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8/11/2024 6:37am

Maybe our friend from Maxxis can answer, but does anyone know why new tires from Maxxis and Schwalbe cost 50-70€ in Europe and $90-120 in the US? It's sometimes double the cost, or more. I appreciate that currency plays a role (the dollar is relatively strong), but that wouldn't double the cost. Is this a tariff thing?

7
veefour
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8/11/2024 6:58am Edited Date/Time 8/11/2024 6:59am
TEAMROBOT wrote:
Maybe our friend from Maxxis can answer, but does anyone know why new tires from Maxxis and Schwalbe cost 50-70€ in Europe and $90-120 in the...

Maybe our friend from Maxxis can answer, but does anyone know why new tires from Maxxis and Schwalbe cost 50-70€ in Europe and $90-120 in the US? It's sometimes double the cost, or more. I appreciate that currency plays a role (the dollar is relatively strong), but that wouldn't double the cost. Is this a tariff thing?

They came out in sympathy with Europeans and decided to subsidise us when they saw the prices for Fox suspension this side of the pond. 😄

17
watchcwgo
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8/11/2024 8:22am
TEAMROBOT wrote:
Maybe our friend from Maxxis can answer, but does anyone know why new tires from Maxxis and Schwalbe cost 50-70€ in Europe and $90-120 in the...

Maybe our friend from Maxxis can answer, but does anyone know why new tires from Maxxis and Schwalbe cost 50-70€ in Europe and $90-120 in the US? It's sometimes double the cost, or more. I appreciate that currency plays a role (the dollar is relatively strong), but that wouldn't double the cost. Is this a tariff thing?

Would love to see the answer to this. We have the same circumstances with DT here stateside and I remember DT officially saying that part of the crazy retail price in the US compared to EU is because of their after sales support in Colorado being built into the MSRP. That never really added up for me. 

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