MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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JVP
Posts
114
Joined
4/20/2016
Location
Seattle, WA US
7/23/2024 11:18am Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 11:19am

The lack of cable ports on future carbon frames is bumming me out. Wireless-only sucks for people who like to optimize for on-trail performance. I prefer carbon frames due to better alignment, fatigue life, and saving 2 lbs without decrease in durability, so going to alum isn't the right compromise. Our cohort has always prioritized spending $$ on top tier suspension, brakes, and wheels, while almost universally selecting "good enough" drivetrain at the XT/GX level. 

I realize that showroom shopping squids prefer fancy looking gadgets to performance. This sucks and bums me out.

I'm counting on the mid-sized brands to eat the lunch of the big dogs on this one by not forcing us to spend an extra $800 on wireless. That's a set of great brakes right there. Brakes actually matter.

23
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austin-NC
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Lincolnton , NC US
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7/23/2024 11:21am
austin-NC wrote:
The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something...

The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something more expensive. Why would they not put a small hole in the head tube and in the chain stay, can fit little plugs in it if they arent needed. 

Its different than say 1x drivetrains or dropper posts where there is a clear and undeniable benefit. What is better about a wireless drivetrain vs a properly tuned cable one? We get rid of a $3 cable and cable housing and add a battery?

krabo83 wrote:
what irks me with this is the frames are getting simpler and cheaper to produce for them without laminating tubes into the frame but prices will...

what irks me with this is the frames are getting simpler and cheaper to produce for them without laminating tubes into the frame but prices will rise nonetheless. the industry is gonna try to milk us until MTB is back to being a niche sport.

Why does everyone in the industry feel a need to make drastic new advancements every 6 months, spend tons of money on R&D which drives up the cost on new products that we didn't really need in the first place so then they have to hopefully force the consumer into having to buy these new products. For example wireless only frames. 

Just keep producing the same drivetrains that worked and consumers will by replacement cassettes, mechs and chains as needed the tooling is already paid for and the profit margins are higher the longer they are still available to sell replacment parts.  

8
7/23/2024 11:24am

A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only model, adding complexity and network connection requirements that didn't improve the actual user experience. Now, the more I hear about bullshit AI integration in future versions of Windows, the more I consider abandoning Microsoft altogether and taking the leap to a Linux-powered computer that does what I need and no more.

I bring this up because I think there's a possible parallel to the mountain bike industry. We're seeing the major companies push features that feel frivolous or downright unwanted, because actual major developments in geometry, linkage design, frame construction, etc. have seemingly plateaued (probably not forever, but at least for right now) and the brands are chasing novelty and an appearance of prestige. But it may just push more users away from the 'core' brands/companies toward smaller or alternative brands that offer the features or user experience that the major companies have abandoned. Unfortunately, just like switching away from Windows or MacOS, this will probably require a little bit more technical knowledge, and some people will probably just grumble and accept the compromises they're being offered in the front window of the local shop. But it seems like there could be enough of a user base interested in things like mechanical drivetrains, easily serviceable linkages, etc to sustain an economy of smaller, more focused companies that don't push nonsensical designs for the sake of novelty. 

OK, state-of-the-industry speculation over. Back to tech rumors. Re: the new Santa Cruz--WTF is an integrated headtube badge?

16
WarrenB
Posts
6
Joined
10/5/2020
Location
Saint Paul, MN US
7/23/2024 11:40am

The wireless only stuff seems pretty dumb but then I don’t really care, my next unassisted bike will have a gearbox. Any rumors on new entries in that market?

I’ve got money for the right gearbox bike and the right lightweight enduro emtb but not sure when either will come along.

4
TimBud
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GB
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7/23/2024 11:48am
TimBud wrote:
Screw cables. I want my next bike's gears to shift with rods and pistons powered by coal fired steam. And I want my wheels made from...

Screw cables. I want my next bike's gears to shift with rods and pistons powered by coal fired steam. And I want my wheels made from wood thank you very much.

In hindsight I should’ve started that comment, with “screw wireless”!

I stand by the rest of it.
Keep it up lads the hate for change is at an all time level of hilarity.

2
10
Glory831Guy
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85
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10/21/2023
Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
7/23/2024 11:53am
austin-NC wrote:
The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something...

The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something more expensive. Why would they not put a small hole in the head tube and in the chain stay, can fit little plugs in it if they arent needed. 

Its different than say 1x drivetrains or dropper posts where there is a clear and undeniable benefit. What is better about a wireless drivetrain vs a properly tuned cable one? We get rid of a $3 cable and cable housing and add a battery?

krabo83 wrote:
what irks me with this is the frames are getting simpler and cheaper to produce for them without laminating tubes into the frame but prices will...

what irks me with this is the frames are getting simpler and cheaper to produce for them without laminating tubes into the frame but prices will rise nonetheless. the industry is gonna try to milk us until MTB is back to being a niche sport.

Seems like horrible timing for the first gen of ultra premium, wireless only pedal bikes to be released. The industry has been practically giving away bikes for the last year, and now they're gonna try and upsell with more expensive builds? Doesn't seem like it'll work out for everyone, and some models might flop IMO.

4
kashima_nuts
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Denver, CO US
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7/23/2024 12:09pm
austin-NC wrote:
The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something...

The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something more expensive. Why would they not put a small hole in the head tube and in the chain stay, can fit little plugs in it if they arent needed. 

Its different than say 1x drivetrains or dropper posts where there is a clear and undeniable benefit. What is better about a wireless drivetrain vs a properly tuned cable one? We get rid of a $3 cable and cable housing and add a battery?

Unpopular opinion but transmission is a clear/undeniable benefit over any existing cable stuff

25
22
iceman2058
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IL
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7/23/2024 12:24pm
Seems like horrible timing for the first gen of ultra premium, wireless only pedal bikes to be released. The industry has been practically giving away bikes...

Seems like horrible timing for the first gen of ultra premium, wireless only pedal bikes to be released. The industry has been practically giving away bikes for the last year, and now they're gonna try and upsell with more expensive builds? Doesn't seem like it'll work out for everyone, and some models might flop IMO.

Another way to look at it: the very high end of the market is still healthy. People who can afford these bikes still want them, and they change them often. The prices going that high is simply the high-end brands taking what they can from these customers - they’ll pretty much always pay, especially those who are loyal to brands like SC. Brands with higher reliance on entry/mid-level in their market mix are hurting and dropping prices across the board to stay in the game.

10
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bnsleit
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Missoula, MT US
7/23/2024 12:25pm
A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only...

A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only model, adding complexity and network connection requirements that didn't improve the actual user experience. Now, the more I hear about bullshit AI integration in future versions of Windows, the more I consider abandoning Microsoft altogether and taking the leap to a Linux-powered computer that does what I need and no more.

I bring this up because I think there's a possible parallel to the mountain bike industry. We're seeing the major companies push features that feel frivolous or downright unwanted, because actual major developments in geometry, linkage design, frame construction, etc. have seemingly plateaued (probably not forever, but at least for right now) and the brands are chasing novelty and an appearance of prestige. But it may just push more users away from the 'core' brands/companies toward smaller or alternative brands that offer the features or user experience that the major companies have abandoned. Unfortunately, just like switching away from Windows or MacOS, this will probably require a little bit more technical knowledge, and some people will probably just grumble and accept the compromises they're being offered in the front window of the local shop. But it seems like there could be enough of a user base interested in things like mechanical drivetrains, easily serviceable linkages, etc to sustain an economy of smaller, more focused companies that don't push nonsensical designs for the sake of novelty. 

OK, state-of-the-industry speculation over. Back to tech rumors. Re: the new Santa Cruz--WTF is an integrated headtube badge?

agree with all of this but I'm excited for the market share this is going to gift to small-medium brands that aren't following the all-wireless-or-you're-too-poor-for-our-bikes trend. tempted to buy some AXS batteries in bulk and charge a 500% markup at trailhead parking lots for riders that forgot to charge theirs

7
NicoZesty96
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Location
portogruaro, VE IT
7/23/2024 12:35pm
austin-NC wrote:
The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something...

The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something more expensive. Why would they not put a small hole in the head tube and in the chain stay, can fit little plugs in it if they arent needed. 

Its different than say 1x drivetrains or dropper posts where there is a clear and undeniable benefit. What is better about a wireless drivetrain vs a properly tuned cable one? We get rid of a $3 cable and cable housing and add a battery?

Unpopular opinion but transmission is a clear/undeniable benefit over any existing cable stuff

How so precisely?

The pod has possibly the worst ergonomics ever ( previous axs was nice )

Weak clutch

Overpriced

Overweight

The main feature ( you can stand on it ) it’s completely useless as you never get side impacts but always front to back 


So far almost everyone I know that own it, and I work in a bike shop, has had trouble with it, either too much chain slap and had to run a chain tensioner pulley like the old dh bikes, or deralieur just broke down randomly, no signal, deralieur dead.

While the warranty is great, still, it’s a lemon to me

Compared to my normal cable eagle with xt cassette

My combo is way cheaper and it’s lighter, it shifts under power, it’s way quicker, I basically never have to tune the cable tension or anything for months and months

All transmission above have been installed by a proper mechanic with all the seam mechanics tips for transmission.

 

19
9
NicoZesty96
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portogruaro, VE IT
7/23/2024 12:36pm

I consider this a win, a statement from the Propain man himself on the other site regarding cable routing 

IMG 9183
38
TimBud
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GB
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7/23/2024 12:37pm
bnsleit wrote:
agree with all of this but I'm excited for the market share this is going to gift to small-medium brands that aren't following the all-wireless-or-you're-too-poor-for-our-bikes trend...

agree with all of this but I'm excited for the market share this is going to gift to small-medium brands that aren't following the all-wireless-or-you're-too-poor-for-our-bikes trend. tempted to buy some AXS batteries in bulk and charge a 500% markup at trailhead parking lots for riders that forgot to charge theirs

Hopefully so, because that is genuinely a great result!  
Except that the reach and stack will be 3mm different than their last medium bike and the antisquat/antirise relationship won’t meat their ideal either.

Oh and fyi we all have spares batteries and actually remember to charge them anyway… we’ve had mobile (cell) phones for 30 years now so we’ve learnt about recharging them.

1
7
JVP
Posts
114
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Location
Seattle, WA US
7/23/2024 12:58pm
iceman2058 wrote:
Another way to look at it: the very high end of the market is still healthy. People who can afford these bikes still want them, and...

Another way to look at it: the very high end of the market is still healthy. People who can afford these bikes still want them, and they change them often. The prices going that high is simply the high-end brands taking what they can from these customers - they’ll pretty much always pay, especially those who are loyal to brands like SC. Brands with higher reliance on entry/mid-level in their market mix are hurting and dropping prices across the board to stay in the game.

Do we know that the high end of the market is still healthy? Brands are still discounting high end builds quite aggressively.

7
7/23/2024 1:35pm
iceman2058 wrote:
Another way to look at it: the very high end of the market is still healthy. People who can afford these bikes still want them, and...

Another way to look at it: the very high end of the market is still healthy. People who can afford these bikes still want them, and they change them often. The prices going that high is simply the high-end brands taking what they can from these customers - they’ll pretty much always pay, especially those who are loyal to brands like SC. Brands with higher reliance on entry/mid-level in their market mix are hurting and dropping prices across the board to stay in the game.

JVP wrote:

Do we know that the high end of the market is still healthy? Brands are still discounting high end builds quite aggressively.

It is 100% not "healthy" plus the X0, XX, XTR builds make up such a small percentage of any given brands sales that its more or less irrelevant. The whole market is hosed right now, these bikes were committed to 12+ months ago with their factories and they're not gonna sell very many of them regardless of cable routing options. 

7
7/23/2024 1:36pm
FGCKB wrote:
Has anyone seen any info or rumors regarding the release dates of next gen of wireless dropper posts? I've seen the patents for the new AXS...

Has anyone seen any info or rumors regarding the release dates of next gen of wireless dropper posts? I've seen the patents for the new AXS Reverb. Also there was the leaked Fox Transfer Neo as well as the BikeYoke showing off something at Eurobike. I haven't seen any solid release dates anywhere though.

I heard the Fox one was supposed to be later this summer. Reverb was spotted prototype testing just this spring, so that will be at least 1-2 years. 

2
7/23/2024 1:37pm
A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only...

A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only model, adding complexity and network connection requirements that didn't improve the actual user experience. Now, the more I hear about bullshit AI integration in future versions of Windows, the more I consider abandoning Microsoft altogether and taking the leap to a Linux-powered computer that does what I need and no more.

I bring this up because I think there's a possible parallel to the mountain bike industry. We're seeing the major companies push features that feel frivolous or downright unwanted, because actual major developments in geometry, linkage design, frame construction, etc. have seemingly plateaued (probably not forever, but at least for right now) and the brands are chasing novelty and an appearance of prestige. But it may just push more users away from the 'core' brands/companies toward smaller or alternative brands that offer the features or user experience that the major companies have abandoned. Unfortunately, just like switching away from Windows or MacOS, this will probably require a little bit more technical knowledge, and some people will probably just grumble and accept the compromises they're being offered in the front window of the local shop. But it seems like there could be enough of a user base interested in things like mechanical drivetrains, easily serviceable linkages, etc to sustain an economy of smaller, more focused companies that don't push nonsensical designs for the sake of novelty. 

OK, state-of-the-industry speculation over. Back to tech rumors. Re: the new Santa Cruz--WTF is an integrated headtube badge?

So this is where I probably sound like a hypocrite, but the open source software world is something I've been fascinated by and slowly changing a lot of my computing to free/open source alternatives over the last few years for the same reason. Linux has been my main OS for 2 or 3 years and its awesome, but a little strange that the bar for an enjoyable experience is "being able to use my computer without microsoft constantly trying to f**k with it and extort money from me". It's not perfect, but I feel a little happier knowing I can put energy in to managing my work and data without worrying that it will be taken away or held to ransom by a huge software company

 

When it comes to bikes - I'm on the fence with wireless, I can see a lot of benefits to it (especially for things like suspension lockouts) and I hope that people aren't just scared of it because they don't like electronics. And while the internet is full of haters, they need to understand there is a huge number of people out there who buy mountain bikes and have very different priorities and experiences (oh and money) and might really appreciate what electronics can bring to the table. I made a bad venn diagram (with free & open source software...)  to illustrate what I mean too!

venn

22
1
TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
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371st
7/23/2024 1:41pm
austin-NC wrote:
Why does everyone in the industry feel a need to make drastic new advancements every 6 months, spend tons of money on R&D which drives up...

Why does everyone in the industry feel a need to make drastic new advancements every 6 months, spend tons of money on R&D which drives up the cost on new products that we didn't really need in the first place so then they have to hopefully force the consumer into having to buy these new products. For example wireless only frames. 

Just keep producing the same drivetrains that worked and consumers will by replacement cassettes, mechs and chains as needed the tooling is already paid for and the profit margins are higher the longer they are still available to sell replacment parts.  

How much do you know about capitalism?

30
NicoZesty96
Posts
389
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
portogruaro, VE IT
7/23/2024 1:48pm
A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only...

A few years back I switched to an open-source alternative to the Microsoft Office suite of products (Excel, Word, etc). Microsoft was moving to a subscription-only model, adding complexity and network connection requirements that didn't improve the actual user experience. Now, the more I hear about bullshit AI integration in future versions of Windows, the more I consider abandoning Microsoft altogether and taking the leap to a Linux-powered computer that does what I need and no more.

I bring this up because I think there's a possible parallel to the mountain bike industry. We're seeing the major companies push features that feel frivolous or downright unwanted, because actual major developments in geometry, linkage design, frame construction, etc. have seemingly plateaued (probably not forever, but at least for right now) and the brands are chasing novelty and an appearance of prestige. But it may just push more users away from the 'core' brands/companies toward smaller or alternative brands that offer the features or user experience that the major companies have abandoned. Unfortunately, just like switching away from Windows or MacOS, this will probably require a little bit more technical knowledge, and some people will probably just grumble and accept the compromises they're being offered in the front window of the local shop. But it seems like there could be enough of a user base interested in things like mechanical drivetrains, easily serviceable linkages, etc to sustain an economy of smaller, more focused companies that don't push nonsensical designs for the sake of novelty. 

OK, state-of-the-industry speculation over. Back to tech rumors. Re: the new Santa Cruz--WTF is an integrated headtube badge?

So this is where I probably sound like a hypocrite, but the open source software world is something I've been fascinated by and slowly changing a...

So this is where I probably sound like a hypocrite, but the open source software world is something I've been fascinated by and slowly changing a lot of my computing to free/open source alternatives over the last few years for the same reason. Linux has been my main OS for 2 or 3 years and its awesome, but a little strange that the bar for an enjoyable experience is "being able to use my computer without microsoft constantly trying to f**k with it and extort money from me". It's not perfect, but I feel a little happier knowing I can put energy in to managing my work and data without worrying that it will be taken away or held to ransom by a huge software company

 

When it comes to bikes - I'm on the fence with wireless, I can see a lot of benefits to it (especially for things like suspension lockouts) and I hope that people aren't just scared of it because they don't like electronics. And while the internet is full of haters, they need to understand there is a huge number of people out there who buy mountain bikes and have very different priorities and experiences (oh and money) and might really appreciate what electronics can bring to the table. I made a bad venn diagram (with free & open source software...)  to illustrate what I mean too!

venn

talking about electronic and suspension, i feel it's a waste of money for most, correct me if i'm wrong, but spending that much on a flight attendant suspension system is pretty dumb in my book, when, with the same money  i can get a custom tuned coil shock and same, a fork with sized bushing and assembled properly, maybe even tuned.

( i'm sure you've seen plenty of dry/ caked with grease/  tight bushings RS forks ).

so having a fancy electronic lock out on a "stock" fork and shock to me will always be worse than spending the same and having better quality and re-worked suspensions.

 

2
noodlenosteeze
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Magna, UT US
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7/23/2024 1:57pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 2:05pm
austin-NC wrote:
The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something...

The whole wireless only thing is really representative of what bothers me about the bike industry. Changing things for the sole reason to sell us something more expensive. Why would they not put a small hole in the head tube and in the chain stay, can fit little plugs in it if they arent needed. 

Its different than say 1x drivetrains or dropper posts where there is a clear and undeniable benefit. What is better about a wireless drivetrain vs a properly tuned cable one? We get rid of a $3 cable and cable housing and add a battery?

Unpopular opinion but transmission is a clear/undeniable benefit over any existing cable stuff

How so precisely?The pod has possibly the worst ergonomics ever ( previous axs was nice )Weak clutchOverpricedOverweightThe main feature ( you can stand on it )...

How so precisely?

The pod has possibly the worst ergonomics ever ( previous axs was nice )

Weak clutch

Overpriced

Overweight

The main feature ( you can stand on it ) it’s completely useless as you never get side impacts but always front to back 


So far almost everyone I know that own it, and I work in a bike shop, has had trouble with it, either too much chain slap and had to run a chain tensioner pulley like the old dh bikes, or deralieur just broke down randomly, no signal, deralieur dead.

While the warranty is great, still, it’s a lemon to me

Compared to my normal cable eagle with xt cassette

My combo is way cheaper and it’s lighter, it shifts under power, it’s way quicker, I basically never have to tune the cable tension or anything for months and months

All transmission above have been installed by a proper mechanic with all the seam mechanics tips for transmission.

 

Anecdote, but a friend of mine has had 3 warranty replacements on an XO derailleur so far. 

1 for the clutch failing, 2 for the software being bricked. He bought the groupset as soon as it was available to him and has had it since January IIRC. 

3
noodlenosteeze
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7/23/2024 2:03pm
TimBud wrote:
Screw cables. I want my next bike's gears to shift with rods and pistons powered by coal fired steam. And I want my wheels made from...

Screw cables. I want my next bike's gears to shift with rods and pistons powered by coal fired steam. And I want my wheels made from wood thank you very much.

TimBud wrote:
In hindsight I should’ve started that comment, with “screw wireless”!I stand by the rest of it.Keep it up lads the hate for change is at an...

In hindsight I should’ve started that comment, with “screw wireless”!

I stand by the rest of it.
Keep it up lads the hate for change is at an all time level of hilarity.

Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you up.

I would say most of the folks here wouldn't be mad if the bikes were designed with mechanical routing holes in the frame. If you're a brand loyalist who prefers mechanical groupos you'd for sure have a sour taste in your mouth too. 

1
Nobble
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Location
Santa Cruz, CA US
7/23/2024 2:13pm

I wonder what the weight penalty is for adding internal routing to a carbon frame. A lot of the penetrations aren't in low stress areas, so there must be some more material to account for it.

4
TimBud
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GB
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7/23/2024 2:22pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 2:34pm
Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you...

Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you up.

I would say most of the folks here wouldn't be mad if the bikes were designed with mechanical routing holes in the frame. If you're a brand loyalist who prefers mechanical groupos you'd for sure have a sour taste in your mouth too. 

Wow cables and frame ports are nearly as touchy a subject as religion and politics now huh.

You’re either a believer or you’re not. Just make sure you judge and condemn everyone else right

2
11
noodlenosteeze
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7/23/2024 2:27pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 2:31pm
Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you...

Hate for forced change you mean. It's alright that you can have a stupid opinion every once in a while, just don't let it eat you up.

I would say most of the folks here wouldn't be mad if the bikes were designed with mechanical routing holes in the frame. If you're a brand loyalist who prefers mechanical groupos you'd for sure have a sour taste in your mouth too. 

TimBud wrote:
Wow cables and frame ports are nearly as touchy a subject as religion and politics now huh.You’re either a believer or you’re not. Just make sure...

Wow cables and frame ports are nearly as touchy a subject as religion and politics now huh.

You’re either a believer or you’re not. Just make sure you judge and condemn everyone else right

I am just gonna take a guess that you work at SRAM lol.

I would never insult someone on their politics or religion. 😉

Finkill
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GB
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7/23/2024 3:06pm

I guess the holes in the frame do add some weight and cost to the frame, but since they still need to do it for the rear brake and dropper post, its not a huge difference to also have the routing for a gear cable. Maybe there could be some guides on the outside of the frame to allow external routing of the cables? 

2
brash
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AU
7/23/2024 4:07pm

If there are no cable ports frame/bike prices should be cheaper right......RIGHT? 

 

fml

10
metadave
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CA
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7/23/2024 4:46pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 4:47pm

I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up, especially compared to older AXS, which was excellent. Sure, you get used to it if you're doing it every day, but it requires enough App/random information access that you might not have out on the trail if something goes wrong to actually make it shift properly again. For example, we have it on a fleet of demo E-bikes and we have checked the install of the drivetrain multiple times to the instructions in this video: https://www.sram.com/en/learn/eagle-transmission-welcome-guide/installation-overview

However, people using the bikes then smack the derailleur somehow, causing it to shift out of place, even if everything is properly torqued. Then the whole system is game over. There's nothing to keep the derailleur in place other than a knurled plate between the frame and derailleur that will still move under proper torque against the frame and the derailleur no longer has proper B-tension. The people demoing these bikes are not experienced techs. Its just doesn't work any more because they put it in the back of their SUV to transport it and bumped it hard enough to make it go out of adjustment even if you've followed every step. Making it cheaper and more accessible I can only see causing more issues. 

I've also had to drill out multiple axles because people who thought they knew what they were doing/had the experience needed to install their own group sets ended up having their axled seize in the derailleur bolt because everything can rotate together. So far, yes it shifts very well, and when its working, its excellent and I've used it on these demo bikes for months and had great personal experiences, but in a real world setting used by normal people, it's pretty unimpressive and down right an issue so far.

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2
DServy
Posts
89
Joined
5/28/2015
Location
Jackson, WY US
Fantasy
2241st
7/23/2024 5:26pm
bermed wrote:
I think it has less to do with savviness and more with getting inside info from SRAM and Shimano on what they have coming down the...

I think it has less to do with savviness and more with getting inside info from SRAM and Shimano on what they have coming down the pipeline in the next 5-10 years. Component manufacturers including drivetrain and suspension obviously go to all the major bike companies and give them a roadmap that shows where they are heading and what's being developed.

Oh yeah the bike companies absolutely know whats coming down the line.....but not all of it will be any good, so the smarter companies will only...

Oh yeah the bike companies absolutely know whats coming down the line.....but not all of it will be any good, so the smarter companies will only commit to the things which they know will become accepted as the "norm" in a few years. The counter to SC was Turner bikes who insisted the long travel RFX had front derailleur mount in 2016 because shimano was flogging a dead horse with their new front mech designs. See how well both of those turned out...Di2 and Fox live valve cabling were more things brands like Pivot jumped on board with early but no-one else adopted. 

FullSend wrote:
Speaking of Pivot: Another example of that would be 2017 Switchblade, which had SuperBoost hub spacing, 425 mm chainstays and a front derailleur mount. Because Chris...

Speaking of Pivot: Another example of that would be 2017 Switchblade, which had SuperBoost hub spacing, 425 mm chainstays and a front derailleur mount. Because Chris Cocalis, in 2017, still believed that short chainstays, plus-size tires and front derailleurs were the future.

 

Bottom line: 

The big brands usually know about new developments well in advance. But sometimes even these big brands are spectacularly wrong with their predictions. It might be the same with wireless shifting. In the comment sections all around the internet there seems to be a STRONG anti-wireless sentiment.

I think its a vocal minority compared to people buying bikes. Most folks I see buying new bikes want wireless shifting.

As for myself, not going back to shifter cables any time soon.

I'm actually hopeful that the lack of needing to provide cable ports means companies have a bit more freedom in their carbon layups, which could hopefully lead to cool things. 

10
9
chriskief
Posts
386
Joined
4/15/2017
Location
New York, NY US
Fantasy
243rd
7/23/2024 5:41pm
Oh yeah the bike companies absolutely know whats coming down the line.....but not all of it will be any good, so the smarter companies will only...

Oh yeah the bike companies absolutely know whats coming down the line.....but not all of it will be any good, so the smarter companies will only commit to the things which they know will become accepted as the "norm" in a few years. The counter to SC was Turner bikes who insisted the long travel RFX had front derailleur mount in 2016 because shimano was flogging a dead horse with their new front mech designs. See how well both of those turned out...Di2 and Fox live valve cabling were more things brands like Pivot jumped on board with early but no-one else adopted. 

FullSend wrote:
Speaking of Pivot: Another example of that would be 2017 Switchblade, which had SuperBoost hub spacing, 425 mm chainstays and a front derailleur mount. Because Chris...

Speaking of Pivot: Another example of that would be 2017 Switchblade, which had SuperBoost hub spacing, 425 mm chainstays and a front derailleur mount. Because Chris Cocalis, in 2017, still believed that short chainstays, plus-size tires and front derailleurs were the future.

 

Bottom line: 

The big brands usually know about new developments well in advance. But sometimes even these big brands are spectacularly wrong with their predictions. It might be the same with wireless shifting. In the comment sections all around the internet there seems to be a STRONG anti-wireless sentiment.

DServy wrote:
I think its a vocal minority compared to people buying bikes. Most folks I see buying new bikes want wireless shifting.As for myself, not going back...

I think its a vocal minority compared to people buying bikes. Most folks I see buying new bikes want wireless shifting.

As for myself, not going back to shifter cables any time soon.

I'm actually hopeful that the lack of needing to provide cable ports means companies have a bit more freedom in their carbon layups, which could hopefully lead to cool things. 

With more wireless droppers coming, how soon till that cable option is removed as well?

3
dolface
Posts
1230
Joined
10/26/2015
Location
CA US
Fantasy
610th
7/23/2024 6:01pm Edited Date/Time 7/23/2024 6:35pm
metadave wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up...

I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up, especially compared to older AXS, which was excellent. Sure, you get used to it if you're doing it every day, but it requires enough App/random information access that you might not have out on the trail if something goes wrong to actually make it shift properly again. For example, we have it on a fleet of demo E-bikes and we have checked the install of the drivetrain multiple times to the instructions in this video: https://www.sram.com/en/learn/eagle-transmission-welcome-guide/installation-overview

However, people using the bikes then smack the derailleur somehow, causing it to shift out of place, even if everything is properly torqued. Then the whole system is game over. There's nothing to keep the derailleur in place other than a knurled plate between the frame and derailleur that will still move under proper torque against the frame and the derailleur no longer has proper B-tension. The people demoing these bikes are not experienced techs. Its just doesn't work any more because they put it in the back of their SUV to transport it and bumped it hard enough to make it go out of adjustment even if you've followed every step. Making it cheaper and more accessible I can only see causing more issues. 

I've also had to drill out multiple axles because people who thought they knew what they were doing/had the experience needed to install their own group sets ended up having their axled seize in the derailleur bolt because everything can rotate together. So far, yes it shifts very well, and when its working, its excellent and I've used it on these demo bikes for months and had great personal experiences, but in a real world setting used by normal people, it's pretty unimpressive and down right an issue so far.

Anecdotes are not data and it sounds like I'm in the minority but I got mine in April of '23 and installed it and set it up myself. I've put 2,500 miles and almost 750k' of descending on it and  and haven't touched it since then other than to check torque after the first few rides. I swapped the chain out for an XX chain at about 2k miles.

It's been flawless and I have beaten the ever-loving crap out of it, the skid plates on the mech are a little ragged-looking but that's just cosmetic.

(In case it's relevant I got an XX mech, X0 cassette and chain and swapped out the Transmission pod for the the Eagle pod because I hated it. I used nonT-Type cranks and chainring because I'm vain and think the T-Type cranks are ugly).

15
metadave
Posts
1006
Joined
2/15/2016
Location
CA
Fantasy
2320th
7/23/2024 6:13pm
metadave wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up...

I'm not sure if anyone here has actually set up T-Type yet, but its kind of bullshit to set up compared to a regular set up, especially compared to older AXS, which was excellent. Sure, you get used to it if you're doing it every day, but it requires enough App/random information access that you might not have out on the trail if something goes wrong to actually make it shift properly again. For example, we have it on a fleet of demo E-bikes and we have checked the install of the drivetrain multiple times to the instructions in this video: https://www.sram.com/en/learn/eagle-transmission-welcome-guide/installation-overview

However, people using the bikes then smack the derailleur somehow, causing it to shift out of place, even if everything is properly torqued. Then the whole system is game over. There's nothing to keep the derailleur in place other than a knurled plate between the frame and derailleur that will still move under proper torque against the frame and the derailleur no longer has proper B-tension. The people demoing these bikes are not experienced techs. Its just doesn't work any more because they put it in the back of their SUV to transport it and bumped it hard enough to make it go out of adjustment even if you've followed every step. Making it cheaper and more accessible I can only see causing more issues. 

I've also had to drill out multiple axles because people who thought they knew what they were doing/had the experience needed to install their own group sets ended up having their axled seize in the derailleur bolt because everything can rotate together. So far, yes it shifts very well, and when its working, its excellent and I've used it on these demo bikes for months and had great personal experiences, but in a real world setting used by normal people, it's pretty unimpressive and down right an issue so far.

dolface wrote:
Anecdotes are not data and it sounds like I'm in the minority but I got mine in April of '23 and installed it and set it...

Anecdotes are not data and it sounds like I'm in the minority but I got mine in April of '23 and installed it and set it up myself. I've put 2,500 miles and almost 750k' of descending on it and  and haven't touched it since then other than to check torque after the first few rides. I swapped the chain out for an XX chain at about 2k miles.

It's been flawless and I have beaten the ever-loving crap out of it, the skid plates on the mech are a little ragged-looking but that's just cosmetic.

(In case it's relevant I got an XX mech, X0 cassette and chain and swapped out the Transmission pod for the the Eagle pod because I hated it. I used nonT-Type cranks and chainring because I'm vain and think the T-Type cranks are ugly).

I think the "Has a proper bike rack and understands the basics of how things work crew" is unfortunately smaller than some bike companies hope or think it is when they're expanding a platform so quickly. I guess I should note, I live in an area that usually has more wallet than understanding so I may be in a minority area, but it hasn't been great so far unless the rider has a greater understanding of what they're using and how to take care of it. And you'd think that would be good for bike shops, but when you have a wave of E-bike and headset routing issues on new bikes piling up because companies haven't thought after service through, throwing another log on the fire just jams things up so you can't do regular service work. It feels like every day I have another 3-4 bike either new or out of the box that have developed issues with new and cool tech that take time away from actually doing jobs that make service departments money because the bike is a month old and is broken. 

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