The overall length doesn’t really matter nearly as much as how much the shock actually moves which in case is 65 mm for the Capra. So...
The overall length doesn’t really matter nearly as much as how much the shock actually moves which in case is 65 mm for the Capra. So the same for every other Enduro bike in the travel category like I was saying, I understand but this is the only bike I’ve ever seen. That’s a downhill bike speck shock (75 mm)with only 180 mm of rear wheel travel. I know it’s not really a tech thing, but I was hoping someone else could give me some insight as to why Maren chose to go with such a long stroke shock for such a little wheel travel
Another bike with a 75mm stroke getting just 180mm of travel is the Devinci Chainsaw - haven’t heard a single bad word about its suspension performance. But given it’s a high-pivot, this might not be so strange. Yet again, it depends mostly on what the engineers try (and manage) to achieve!
The overall length doesn’t really matter nearly as much as how much the shock actually moves which in case is 65 mm for the Capra. So...
The overall length doesn’t really matter nearly as much as how much the shock actually moves which in case is 65 mm for the Capra. So the same for every other Enduro bike in the travel category like I was saying, I understand but this is the only bike I’ve ever seen. That’s a downhill bike speck shock (75 mm)with only 180 mm of rear wheel travel. I know it’s not really a tech thing, but I was hoping someone else could give me some insight as to why Maren chose to go with such a long stroke shock for such a little wheel travel
Less stress on the shock & better for heavier riders are primary reasons. Also packaging. They seem to have plenty of room for any normal stroke shock out there.
A lot of times when you see long travel from a shorter stroke shock it’s because there wasn’t any room for something longer (water bottle, complex linkage, dropper clearance etc)
One thing we found when doing a 180 link for the Crestline DH bike is that it required a softer compression tune than a standard off the shelf shock has. Compared to a 65mm stroke shock driving the same amount of travel, on average the 75mm stroke shock generates 33% more damping force at the wheel for a given wheel speed input if the same shock tune is used on both. Pretty big difference. It’s great for heavier riders that are typically pushing the upper bounds for shock tune. Off the shelf tunes work much better for them in this case. For an average sized rider, there isn’t as much of an upside if any at all.
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:
Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of using longer stroke shocks on downhill bikes. 3.5 inch stroke to be specific. Most downhill bikes back in the day had a 3 inch stroke. (Close to 75mm these days.) Intense M6 is one of them off the top of my head, and I’m pretty sure the first generation Wilson also ran a 10.5 x 9.5 shock. These bikes were never over 9” of travel. Consequently spring rates were very low.
The reasoning was to have a lower leverage ratio. 2.75-2.5 to 1 in most cases. Easier on the seals and shim stack/valving. It was a trend that didn’t really catch on. Marin probably just wants a lower leverage ratio on this bike for whatever reason.
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of...
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:
Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of using longer stroke shocks on downhill bikes. 3.5 inch stroke to be specific. Most downhill bikes back in the day had a 3 inch stroke. (Close to 75mm these days.) Intense M6 is one of them off the top of my head, and I’m pretty sure the first generation Wilson also ran a 10.5 x 9.5 shock. These bikes were never over 9” of travel. Consequently spring rates were very low.
The reasoning was to have a lower leverage ratio. 2.75-2.5 to 1 in most cases. Easier on the seals and shim stack/valving. It was a trend that didn’t really catch on. Marin probably just wants a lower leverage ratio on this bike for whatever reason.
Remember the old wildcat trail? 200mm off of 2.25" stroke shock. They blew up if they fell over. They have learned.
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of...
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:
Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of using longer stroke shocks on downhill bikes. 3.5 inch stroke to be specific. Most downhill bikes back in the day had a 3 inch stroke. (Close to 75mm these days.) Intense M6 is one of them off the top of my head, and I’m pretty sure the first generation Wilson also ran a 10.5 x 9.5 shock. These bikes were never over 9” of travel. Consequently spring rates were very low.
The reasoning was to have a lower leverage ratio. 2.75-2.5 to 1 in most cases. Easier on the seals and shim stack/valving. It was a trend that didn’t really catch on. Marin probably just wants a lower leverage ratio on this bike for whatever reason.
One thing we found when doing a 180 link for the Crestline DH bike is that it required a softer compression tune than a standard off...
One thing we found when doing a 180 link for the Crestline DH bike is that it required a softer compression tune than a standard off the shelf shock has. Compared to a 65mm stroke shock driving the same amount of travel, on average the 75mm stroke shock generates 33% more damping force at the wheel for a given wheel speed input if the same shock tune is used on both. Pretty big difference. It’s great for heavier riders that are typically pushing the upper bounds for shock tune. Off the shelf tunes work much better for them in this case. For an average sized rider, there isn’t as much of an upside if any at all.
Does a change in leverage rate have effects on damper behaviour outside of the tune, or is it possible to set up functionally identically performing tunes regardless?
Possibly related question: Are the valve stacks used in dampers all made of the same material, or are there different grades of steel (or even other alloys) to accommodate the requirements of these different tunes?
Does a change in leverage rate have effects on damper behaviour outside of the tune, or is it possible to set up functionally identically performing tunes...
Does a change in leverage rate have effects on damper behaviour outside of the tune, or is it possible to set up functionally identically performing tunes regardless?
Possibly related question: Are the valve stacks used in dampers all made of the same material, or are there different grades of steel (or even other alloys) to accommodate the requirements of these different tunes?
That is a really good question. In theory you can get identical reactions at the wheel, however it’s one of the scenarios where theory and reality don’t really meet. To get truly identical performance you also have to tune the shaft speed at which the shock transitions from LSC to HSC. Without doing that, the bike with the longer shock (assuming equal progression and all) will be out of LSC sooner. With the adjusters you’ve got on a typical shock there isn’t really control over that transition specifically. Whether being out of LSC sooner or later is preferable is debatable.
As for material, generally speaking all steels share the same modulus of elasticity. Give or take a little of course. That and dimensions are what control stiffness of an individual shim. There are spring steels with a much higher yield. That just buys you deflection. Shims are so thin that deflection is easy to get.
To be honest these days, save for a particular air shock and frames that side load a lot, I don’t really see many shocks blowing up. Things have come a long ways. I haven’t converted a shock to a pogo in maybe a six years. Once upon a time a day of whistler was about all it took.
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of...
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:
Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of using longer stroke shocks on downhill bikes. 3.5 inch stroke to be specific. Most downhill bikes back in the day had a 3 inch stroke. (Close to 75mm these days.) Intense M6 is one of them off the top of my head, and I’m pretty sure the first generation Wilson also ran a 10.5 x 9.5 shock. These bikes were never over 9” of travel. Consequently spring rates were very low.
The reasoning was to have a lower leverage ratio. 2.75-2.5 to 1 in most cases. Easier on the seals and shim stack/valving. It was a trend that didn’t really catch on. Marin probably just wants a lower leverage ratio on this bike for whatever reason.
One of my friends had his first ride on his new Stumpy Ohlins yesterday. He loves it. I had a spin and it is very nice. Is it value for money - that depends - but he’s very happy with it. He had a V1 RipMo and seemed to gel with the Stumpy very well.
More likely it’s not a big enough change from the Evo and people don’t see the value in selling their current bike for an abysmal sum and then paying Spesh rrp prices.
And at the price they want, you can have a Levo SL for the same price. Doesn't weigh much more and gives a fair bit of...
And at the price they want, you can have a Levo SL for the same price. Doesn't weigh much more and gives a fair bit of assistance to the top.
I have the previous version stumpy with the flex stays, looked at picking up a frame only. £4k for a frame is mental.
Regular bikes have been subsidizing the insertion of ebikes for a long time now. This is just another step to make Joeys say "you kidding me? I can get a free motor and a battery for the same money?" and choose the ebike.
"More likely it’s not a big enough change from the Evo and people don’t see the value in selling their current bike for an abysmal sum and then paying Spesh rrp prices. "
Its a lovely bike. No complaints whatsoever. Even the pricing isn't terrible by the standards of the last few years.
But despite some incremental improvements (I personally am not against e-shifting), I can't say that it is any better than my 2020 bike. And arguably I have a better spec on my bike.
If I only had a [DH bike/ XC bike/ hardtail] and wanted a trail full suss; or I got burgled and needed to go shopping; it would be on my shortlist. But realistically, I don't need another trail bike. I wonder how many others would say the same?
Is that info from all shops across all regions or just your mate at your lbs?Even Spesh themselves won’t have full good access to all of...
Is that info from all shops across all regions or just your mate at your lbs?
Even Spesh themselves won’t have full good access to all of that sales data.
Friend said he spoke with one of the reps, from what I understood central Europe gets all of the bikes from a single warehouse and they have acces to the asset management system they use to place orders and they can also see current inventory, total number of orders etc. Its for sure not definite but they must have a decent idea compared to the past sales. Tbh I agree its really hard time to lunch a bling new bike with a post covid excess inventory related sales
Since we were talking about Specialized and now about custom tunes, I've heard that new stumpjumper sales/orders are abysmal...
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one for a customer. 3-4 month estimated delivery even though a consumer can order online.
New Gen2 Dorado 37mm with drop dual bolt crown and special mudguard, only in Comp configuration tho. Listed directly on hayes/Manitou website and some other online stores.
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one...
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one for a customer. 3-4 month estimated delivery even though a consumer can order online.
This x100. Multiple month lead times for shops ordering. 3 day delivery if you order directly off the website.......and you collect from the store who can't get you one for 4 months. And people ask 'why are specialized hated so much'.
I think another potential advantage of low leverage rate kinematics is a reduction of effective damper hysteresis (time dependent lag for damper to build pressure) felt. I can imagine this being noticable in extreme leverage rate scenarios but not sure if it would actually be noticable in the ranges we are talking about.
I always felt that the shock on my geometron with 70mm stroke for 175mm felt better than my kenevo sl 65mm stroke for 182mm. Both on retuned ext shocks. Its most likely due to kinematics/damper tune differences but who knows, maybe it's feeling the leverage rate benefits.
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one...
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one for a customer. 3-4 month estimated delivery even though a consumer can order online.
This is a trend that is not unique to Specialized. If you don’t do a solid pre-sale buy in, you’re SOL when an actual customer wants to get a bike.
Why all of a sudden is it despicable that Specialized sell bikes online? I'm sure they're not the only ones...
In the UK if you buy from them, they can ship it to your door, or you can "click and collect" it from your dealer. You can however only click and collect it if it is instock at their warehouse or at the dealer itself.
If it's not in stock at the warehouse Specialized have select dealers (mostly their owned ones) can also ship it to you too. The owned retail shops also regularly move stock between them (via TNT/Fedex). So if you walk into a shop that doesn't have the bike you're going to buy, it can be shipped to that location to be prepped for you. It's a pretty good system from my experience... for the customer at least.
From the info I can see the Stumpy is in low supply at the UK warehouse (which could mean loads are sitting in shop windows) and new stock which comes from the EU warehouse is a couple of months... which means that their stock is low too. I don't believe they're flying out the doo, but it's not abysmal. Just like every other brands bikes that aren't E.
The UK shops that struggle with Spesh are generally the ones that have a massive portfolio of brands and don't order much, so why should Spesh be loyal to them when there are other shops that do better (work harder) for the brand. Again that's just standard business.
Without aiming to get the last word in on this installment of thread derailment, could I ask that we get back to tech rumours. Please
I know there's not much happening, so maybe we just don't post in this thread until something actually happens?
Well it’s better for damping performance, right?
Another bike with a 75mm stroke getting just 180mm of travel is the Devinci Chainsaw - haven’t heard a single bad word about its suspension performance. But given it’s a high-pivot, this might not be so strange. Yet again, it depends mostly on what the engineers try (and manage) to achieve!
Less stress on the shock & better for heavier riders are primary reasons. Also packaging. They seem to have plenty of room for any normal stroke shock out there.
A lot of times when you see long travel from a shorter stroke shock it’s because there wasn’t any room for something longer (water bottle, complex linkage, dropper clearance etc)
One thing we found when doing a 180 link for the Crestline DH bike is that it required a softer compression tune than a standard off the shelf shock has. Compared to a 65mm stroke shock driving the same amount of travel, on average the 75mm stroke shock generates 33% more damping force at the wheel for a given wheel speed input if the same shock tune is used on both. Pretty big difference. It’s great for heavier riders that are typically pushing the upper bounds for shock tune. Off the shelf tunes work much better for them in this case. For an average sized rider, there isn’t as much of an upside if any at all.
What’s old is new again. I’m going to use some freedom units here, so bear with me:
Close to 20 years ago there was a trend of using longer stroke shocks on downhill bikes. 3.5 inch stroke to be specific. Most downhill bikes back in the day had a 3 inch stroke. (Close to 75mm these days.) Intense M6 is one of them off the top of my head, and I’m pretty sure the first generation Wilson also ran a 10.5 x 9.5 shock. These bikes were never over 9” of travel. Consequently spring rates were very low.
The reasoning was to have a lower leverage ratio. 2.75-2.5 to 1 in most cases. Easier on the seals and shim stack/valving. It was a trend that didn’t really catch on. Marin probably just wants a lower leverage ratio on this bike for whatever reason.
Remember the old wildcat trail? 200mm off of 2.25" stroke shock. They blew up if they fell over. They have learned.
LOL. Same size shock my RM7 had. I cased a jump with the compression too high and that Vanilla RC tossed its cookies. 😆
Foes 2-1 with Curnutt shocks.
Supernought full build is listed and it is eyewatering
https://forbiddenbike.com/bikes/supernought/
Does a change in leverage rate have effects on damper behaviour outside of the tune, or is it possible to set up functionally identically performing tunes regardless?
Possibly related question: Are the valve stacks used in dampers all made of the same material, or are there different grades of steel (or even other alloys) to accommodate the requirements of these different tunes?
That is a really good question. In theory you can get identical reactions at the wheel, however it’s one of the scenarios where theory and reality don’t really meet. To get truly identical performance you also have to tune the shaft speed at which the shock transitions from LSC to HSC. Without doing that, the bike with the longer shock (assuming equal progression and all) will be out of LSC sooner. With the adjusters you’ve got on a typical shock there isn’t really control over that transition specifically. Whether being out of LSC sooner or later is preferable is debatable.
As for material, generally speaking all steels share the same modulus of elasticity. Give or take a little of course. That and dimensions are what control stiffness of an individual shim. There are spring steels with a much higher yield. That just buys you deflection. Shims are so thin that deflection is easy to get.
To be honest these days, save for a particular air shock and frames that side load a lot, I don’t really see many shocks blowing up. Things have come a long ways. I haven’t converted a shock to a pogo in maybe a six years. Once upon a time a day of whistler was about all it took.
Since we were talking about Specialized and now about custom tunes, I've heard that new stumpjumper sales/orders are abysmal...
If the price was right, I'd demo one and very much consider buying one, there's a lot to lIke (had a quick spin on the Ohlins one, very nice irl).
The price is not right. Maybe (next) winter will bring reasonable prices.
Saw one of those in Paganella yesterday. Absolutely wild, thought they put a moto shock on a DH bike at first. Fork was massive as well.
One of my friends had his first ride on his new Stumpy Ohlins yesterday. He loves it. I had a spin and it is very nice. Is it value for money - that depends - but he’s very happy with it. He had a V1 RipMo and seemed to gel with the Stumpy very well.
Is that info from all shops across all regions or just your mate at your lbs?
Even Spesh themselves won’t have full good access to all of that sales data.
I imagine they'd notice if follow-up orders have dropped off
Also, just to throw in an opinion, how could they not have dropped off with those prices?
And at the price they want, you can have a Levo SL for the same price. Doesn't weigh much more and gives a fair bit of assistance to the top.
I have the previous version stumpy with the flex stays, looked at picking up a frame only. £4k for a frame is mental.
Yeh... likely because they haven't released the alloy version yet.
More likely it’s not a big enough change from the Evo and people don’t see the value in selling their current bike for an abysmal sum and then paying Spesh rrp prices.
Regular bikes have been subsidizing the insertion of ebikes for a long time now. This is just another step to make Joeys say "you kidding me? I can get a free motor and a battery for the same money?" and choose the ebike.
"More likely it’s not a big enough change from the Evo and people don’t see the value in selling their current bike for an abysmal sum and then paying Spesh rrp prices. "
Its a lovely bike. No complaints whatsoever. Even the pricing isn't terrible by the standards of the last few years.
But despite some incremental improvements (I personally am not against e-shifting), I can't say that it is any better than my 2020 bike. And arguably I have a better spec on my bike.
If I only had a [DH bike/ XC bike/ hardtail] and wanted a trail full suss; or I got burgled and needed to go shopping; it would be on my shortlist. But realistically, I don't need another trail bike. I wonder how many others would say the same?
Friend said he spoke with one of the reps, from what I understood central Europe gets all of the bikes from a single warehouse and they have acces to the asset management system they use to place orders and they can also see current inventory, total number of orders etc. Its for sure not definite but they must have a decent idea compared to the past sales. Tbh I agree its really hard time to lunch a bling new bike with a post covid excess inventory related sales
Local shop says allocations are stupid, and Spech is holding them for themselves. He's gotten 2, and had to make phone calls for the second one for a customer. 3-4 month estimated delivery even though a consumer can order online.
New Gen2 Dorado 37mm with drop dual bolt crown and special mudguard, only in Comp configuration tho. Listed directly on hayes/Manitou website and some other online stores.
The Expert and Pro models are also listed with the fender and new Top Crown. Seems nothing else changed tho
This x100. Multiple month lead times for shops ordering. 3 day delivery if you order directly off the website.......and you collect from the store who can't get you one for 4 months.
And people ask 'why are specialized hated so much'.
I think another potential advantage of low leverage rate kinematics is a reduction of effective damper hysteresis (time dependent lag for damper to build pressure) felt. I can imagine this being noticable in extreme leverage rate scenarios but not sure if it would actually be noticable in the ranges we are talking about.
I always felt that the shock on my geometron with 70mm stroke for 175mm felt better than my kenevo sl 65mm stroke for 182mm. Both on retuned ext shocks. Its most likely due to kinematics/damper tune differences but who knows, maybe it's feeling the leverage rate benefits.
This is a trend that is not unique to Specialized. If you don’t do a solid pre-sale buy in, you’re SOL when an actual customer wants to get a bike.
Why all of a sudden is it despicable that Specialized sell bikes online? I'm sure they're not the only ones...
In the UK if you buy from them, they can ship it to your door, or you can "click and collect" it from your dealer. You can however only click and collect it if it is instock at their warehouse or at the dealer itself.
If it's not in stock at the warehouse Specialized have select dealers (mostly their owned ones) can also ship it to you too. The owned retail shops also regularly move stock between them (via TNT/Fedex). So if you walk into a shop that doesn't have the bike you're going to buy, it can be shipped to that location to be prepped for you. It's a pretty good system from my experience... for the customer at least.
From the info I can see the Stumpy is in low supply at the UK warehouse (which could mean loads are sitting in shop windows) and new stock which comes from the EU warehouse is a couple of months... which means that their stock is low too. I don't believe they're flying out the doo, but it's not abysmal. Just like every other brands bikes that aren't E.
The UK shops that struggle with Spesh are generally the ones that have a massive portfolio of brands and don't order much, so why should Spesh be loyal to them when there are other shops that do better (work harder) for the brand. Again that's just standard business.
Without aiming to get the last word in on this installment of thread derailment, could I ask that we get back to tech rumours. Please
I know there's not much happening, so maybe we just don't post in this thread until something actually happens?