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The Vital MTB Crew
Argotals actually
Have to agree with this. There is no way I am buying a potentially very expensive purchase without knowing the rear kinematic.
Luckily, I'm a giant nerd/engineer and can use linkageX3.
My norco Range VLT never released any of the kinematic, so I modeled it pre-purchase, Not sure why they don't release the graphs because it's nothing outlandish and just a good old 4 bar. It's 25% progressive which is my goldilocks number, low antisquat (because motor) and minimal pedal kickback. From those graphs I knew it would suit me. Your average punter 1, Doesn't know what suits them and 2, Cant read/understand the graphs lol.
I agree there are riders and applications where a 35% leverage ratio is great (I rode a CC link on my Gen 1 Megatower for a long time and loved it), but I think most brands don't want to go quite that aggressive in their stock suspension for every customer. CC link customers are a distinct subset of riders, and the PNW is a distinct blend of trail conditions, too. Maybe I should have said 15-35%, but the point is that everyone who isn't Privateer (39%) or Starling (0%?) seems to agree on overall progression somewhere in the middle.
This is my.point exactly.
You pay £5000 for an Atherton frame, and they don't include suspension data, meaning independent tuning is harder (but obviously not impossible).
Also LinkageX3 is fine for horst-links etc but for 6 link and VPP/DW bikes you have to be very accurate taking measurements (I don't have the equipment to do so) making it even harder to figure it out yourself.
If the view is that customers don't understand leverage graphs or anti-squat therefore were not going to provide them for fear of being misunderstood. That is blaming your own communication and justifying leaving informed consumers in the dark.
It’s not fair to the Athertons to assume that that’s their view.
Given the super customisable nature of their bikes it’s no surprise they don’t have public graphs.
However they do quite openly offer the option for you “to speak to an expert” if you require further information.
The geometry and sizing measurements are all there on their tech sheets so it shouldn’t be that hard to plug those numbers in and get a basic idea. And isn’t that all the graphs do anyway!
The lack of graphs isn't due to the Athertons, it's coming from Dave Weagle. I've asked Ibis for graphs before when considering their bikes, and they told me they aren't allowed to share them due to the agreement with DW.
As someone who has iterated full suspension bikes with Dave Weagle before- the design matrix he shares with his customers to iterate kinematics is more sophisticated than a few graphs, there are a few more integrative rider-focused parameters that I don’t usually see people talk about on message boards he likes to use to relate feel and function. Dave will tell you those unspoken variables are actually the things to look at to compare bikes.
Dave’s customer service Special Sauce, if you will…
This, it's part of the deal with a DW. And while an opinionated engineer, he's right about the other inputs, or at least convincing...
Iirc Weagles patents for his suspension systems are not based on their layout but specific anti-squat curves. It makes sense why they want to protect this information but it's not like you can't measure a frame and plug the numbers into Linkage.
I mapped out the AM200 in SynBike. The biggest issue without having exact lengths and locations is the short link off the frame. 1mm is a giant change.
My average guesswork, the bike would pedal well, rear shock would be free feeling while using the rear brake. The leverage I don’t think was correct, but it was slightly progressive then linear towards the end. But I can’t confirm or deny until I ride the bike, but I put money on it being wrong. Axle path was slight rearward then forward.
Looks like new bikes from Specialized on Tuesday. Assuming this is the new Epic/Epic Evo.
I, personally, am not a fan of high progression. You can't use all of the travel and you get terrible mid stroke support. My current ride is a Nicolai G1 and I wish it was less progressive because I actually like the geo.
More progressive bikes provide more mid stroke support IF they are sagged the same. What’s often overlooked is the fact that sag at the wheel is increasingly greater than the sag at the shock as a bike gets more progressive. This gives the perception of less mid stroke and riding deep in travel, but is usually just the result of having more sag at the wheel than expected. The other nuance is how damping is affected. You have to run a stiffer tune. In the end if you aren’t hammering on the bike none of this is ideal, but it’s also not a massive downside.
Personally I don’t get why companies would be guarded when it comes to their curves from the standpoint of them being copied. I doubt Norco is trying to copy Ibis or the other way around. But even if they were, replicating the geo is easy when you have the time and resources.
In regards to unspoken metrics, you can come up with a billion different things if you really want. Curvature, derivatives of things, integrals of things and such. One of the more interesting ones to me is percent increase in damping force for a given wheel speed input as a function of shock stroke. Makes it easy to visualize how a certain impact might feel starting from different points in travel.
Edited to add: you can also create leverage curves in different directions. Differences in shock speeds for high pivots make sense when looking at it from literally different angles. Leverage ratio might be the same for a vertical impact, but is much different the closer it gets to horizontal.
Totally with you on the anti rise. I came of a 21’ sight onto a current range and the difference in control trying to approach a steep chute is enormous. Granted the range is lauded for particularly good braking but the sight just wanted to hit that eject button. I know that behaviour is similar to many other Horst bikes but doesn’t have to be, I believe the current strive is quite high in this respect.
Air VS Coil makes a big difference too. High progression with a linear rate coil spring works really good. Just need enough LSC so the bike doesn't feel lethargic with the softer initial travel.
I wonder if Fox, with the new GX2 Damper have fixed the damper knocking sound often found in their forks...
GripX will 100% be more than enough for 99.9% of forum riders(just as GRIP currently is)
Going to assume im dumb but this looks like a new TRP lever??? looks like a EVO capiler with R1 rotors. **edit, confirmed they are TRP EVO calipers with Saint hoses
Saw an e-bike on the trail yesterday that looked like the new Trek Slash with a motor. Didn’t get to snap any pictures. Completely white frame, same lower roller and chainstay protection as the Slash. New Rail probably?
could be, i might've heard that something new is coming out in that regard, and it should as the current rail is very "meh"
Titanium hardtail ebike anyone? This is a prototype from Nordest Cycles
https://www.instagram.com/p/C4OcWWovQ9q/?igsh=Y3BqcWVqajY3aHM1
tq or bosch motor?
is the white frame the new Enduro?
Would be quite bice if the high-pivot e-bike market moves a lil bit! The 2 neutralize each other’s cons - high-pivot is heavy and pedals bad, e-bike doesn’t care about weight because it’s 20+kg anyway, doesn’t care about pedaling efficiency because, duuhh, motor! In the same time e-bikes are beasts downhill, so a high-pivot will only make it even more beastly! A win-win! They just need to make it dc-fork compatible!
If that is the new Enduro they were definitely yanking our chains with this photo.
It’s the current one with a custom paint job and polished links.
I wonder if the reduced chain wrap with a high pivot e-bike will cause wear issues? Also 90nm going through the idler.
lots of points are good, but some are just invalid.
While every rider is going after lighter and lighter lever action, even some swearing by the latest hayes levers. We are already being shaken by everything tumbling down the trail, we don't need to unnecesserily spend more energy than the bare minimun to stop.
I did a full rebuild of my shimano levers, with a polishing step inside the barrel, and the braking action did improved, for the better.
F1 drivers do oppose their weight while braking hard. They don't have servo brakes because the feeling of the brake is more important than the total force. But you need a certain leverage and movement to actuate the brakes, you can't have it super powerfull and light brake without free stroke while the pads are away. You need this movement of the pads, and thats why every brake has a limited amount of force and movement, thanks to phisics.
With a 9mm main piston and mavens calipers, you'll have gigantic power, but equally gigantic free stroke because youll need to move the lever a lot to get the pads to bite. If you want instant engagement and high power, you'll need a swing link or servowave.
Formula Cura's had the same power, 2 or 4 piston, because the 2 piston had gigantc pistons, equaling the force. The pads were the same too.
My bet is that sram ducked up the seal, because Formula cura has 4 18mm pistons, and the mavens have 2 18mm, and 2 19,5mm.
We gotta stop bringing up f1 all the time. Those guys have ruined their own sport with nerdy data farming and it is boring as fuck to watch. Keep DH DH.