I guess the question is how picky are you? No disrespect intended, but I think this forum is an assembly of the nitpickiest nitpickers in the...
I guess the question is how picky are you? No disrespect intended, but I think this forum is an assembly of the nitpickiest nitpickers in the world when it comes to brake lever feel and power.
The new XT and XTR brakes are totally adequate for mountain biking and ebikes, and if you need more power, you can pair them with a big thick rotor (like a 220mm/2.0mm SRAM HS2). However, they are less powerful than some of their newest competitors* (Maven Ultimates, TRP DHR EVO, Hope Tech4 V4, etc), and the lever feel is less crisp than the classic Shimano on/off feel. Some people think the new XT's and XTR's still suffer from the dreaded wandering bite point, others don't, and the members on this forum will give you a million perspectives on which brake is just right.
In summary, if you're not picky, they'll be fine. If you are picky, and you're fishing for reasons to justify replacing the XT brakes on your new ebike, you will find an abundance of reasons in this forum.
*Editor's note: I think Shimano knows this, which is why they're developing the Jackson Goldstone prototype megahuge brake caliper
This is for folks that have run both the EVO Pro and the DH-R Evo's. I ran DH-Rs prior to some MT7s (HC3) then currently some Lewis options on my two primary bikes. I prefer my levers pretty close and just the index into the end curve, which resulted in me having to use Freedom Coast levers to get them close enough on the DH-R's. Ultimately I ended up moving on from them because I was forced to either sacrifice on brake lever position or shift lever position, which was not great for a thumb that has been through shit, skiing and mechanicing.
Question: Is there more room for setup variation on the new master cylinder, or is it the same. How about reach compared to the original with Freedom Coast levers?
Also considering trying some Hayes, but I have a bunch of mineral oil...
Asking for some thoughts, I'm considering an ebike that comes stock with the new 4 piston XT brakes. My current ebike has TRP dhr's and I...
Asking for some thoughts, I'm considering an ebike that comes stock with the new 4 piston XT brakes. My current ebike has TRP dhr's and I love them, I've had XT's in the past and liked them but the wandering bite point and PITA bleed have me kind of turned off on them, then Vital's own Jason Schroeder says they're a step down from Maven's, TRP's etc. Is that the consensus from others who have ridden the new XT's? Would love to give the new Hope's a run, heard many good things about them.
I haven't ridden the new Shimano brakes, but I can tell you that if you love the TRP's you'll miss them. I have TRP's on my primary bike and had XT's on my downhill bike. We did 6 park weekends back to back and I rode XT's for those weeks then went back to the TRP's and it took me a couple rides to readjust. Within 2 months I had TRP's on the downhill.
I really would love to try out Hayes but the whole family rides Shimano and it's nice to use the same pads (and fluid) across the board.
Slapped a set of Mavens on my Sight only to find that the little tangs on the Maven pads don't clear the the carrier on my XTR Freeza rotors
Probably just going to chop the tangs off the pads while waiting for new rotors as my buddy said he'd swing me a new set of HS2's for $$. Anyone else run into this?
I have no doubt these are massively powerful, but the lever throw must be pretty long. 9mm master cylinder piston with 18/19.5mm caliper pistons and no...
I have no doubt these are massively powerful, but the lever throw must be pretty long. 9mm master cylinder piston with 18/19.5mm caliper pistons and no cam system in the lever. I remember people having complaints about this with Trickstuff DRT/Maxima levers when installed to formula Cura 4 calipers (9mm MC, 18/18mm pistons).
I’m assuming when he’s talking about the Gustav being comparable in power, he’s referring to them matched to the same Radic lever, but these have 19/19mm pistons which seems liken it would make the lever throw issue even worse.
I sure do enjoy seeing people try all kinds of franken-brake setups though!
According to Omakacycle "The free stroke is shorter, and the post-bite lever travel is the same as the stock Maven."I agree with you though,it...
According to Omakacycle "The free stroke is shorter, and the post-bite lever travel is the same as the stock Maven."
I agree with you though,it doesn't add up. I used TRP levers on maven calipers and the free stroke was quite long. I don't see how the radic lever would be any different as the master cylinder is the same size (9mm).
I've discussed these kinds of brake combos with him and he persistantly insists that they don't have a lot of throw (which just isn't true). The brake will have tons of power but will naturally have lots of throw. I tried a Radic/Gustav setup and the lever throw was 28mm with the pads against the rotor. For some reason he likes to mislead.
He was doing some tweaks to the design, but on mine no, you couldn’t refit the reach knob. It works fine with a long all key...
He was doing some tweaks to the design, but on mine no, you couldn’t refit the reach knob. It works fine with a long all key in the reach screw head though - think it’s 2.5mm from memory.
Love the levers. Bumped up the ergonomics and also modulation + power is much better! Looks good aswell 😎
RE: glazing issues. I also run the TRP S05E rotors also and occasionally drag brakes, depending on trail, depending on how steep. But that's cause it's steep, and they certainly are getting hot (I have a rotor shaped burn mark on my right arm from the last time I crashed - bike landed on me and rotor touched my arm for like 2sec before I could shove it off). They are my favorite rotor because of how true they come out of the box, and how quiet. For myself and others using them, the HS2 is decent and widely available, but always require a lot of truing out of the box. I forget if Galfer makes their Sharks in 180mm - but those are pretty good too. They're not as true as TRP though, offer the sharpest bite feel, and tend to be noisier. I also have noticed they produce a weird wear pattern on pads from the holes. Their Wave rotors are really noisy, and I had one come badly warped out of the box (so much I couldn't fix it). I'd run HS2 over Waves.
IME, Galfer green pads last 1/4 the time of sintered/metallic pads. I do think that you want organic/hybrid pads though if you think you're struggling to heat up the pads enough.
One final thought - if you want to try and correct your brake dragging habits, I'd suggest trying to make your brakes as powerful and sharp biting as possible. It will force you to brake in short bursts. Also at the same time try to practice braking early.
RE: glazing issues. I also run the TRP S05E rotors also and occasionally drag brakes, depending on trail, depending on how steep. But that's cause it's...
RE: glazing issues. I also run the TRP S05E rotors also and occasionally drag brakes, depending on trail, depending on how steep. But that's cause it's steep, and they certainly are getting hot (I have a rotor shaped burn mark on my right arm from the last time I crashed - bike landed on me and rotor touched my arm for like 2sec before I could shove it off). They are my favorite rotor because of how true they come out of the box, and how quiet. For myself and others using them, the HS2 is decent and widely available, but always require a lot of truing out of the box. I forget if Galfer makes their Sharks in 180mm - but those are pretty good too. They're not as true as TRP though, offer the sharpest bite feel, and tend to be noisier. I also have noticed they produce a weird wear pattern on pads from the holes. Their Wave rotors are really noisy, and I had one come badly warped out of the box (so much I couldn't fix it). I'd run HS2 over Waves.
IME, Galfer green pads last 1/4 the time of sintered/metallic pads. I do think that you want organic/hybrid pads though if you think you're struggling to heat up the pads enough.
One final thought - if you want to try and correct your brake dragging habits, I'd suggest trying to make your brakes as powerful and sharp biting as possible. It will force you to brake in short bursts. Also at the same time try to practice braking early.
I had pretty good service out of the cheap Shimano RT66 but they wore too thin way too quickly. They only lasted one set of organic pads before they were under spec. Unexceptable.
Where are you guys finding the HS1's cheap? They are the same price as my go to rotor, the TRP ROS1E.
Maybe a paint removal air gun would also work? They go up to 600 degrees Celsius and might be more useful for a home mechanic that doesn't have either...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
why would you get the levers and not the maven calipers which is what makes them good
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
I've been itching to try Shimano levers with the DB8 calipers. I think it'd be a neat thing to try.
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
I've been itching to try Shimano levers with the DB8 calipers. I think it'd be a neat thing to try.
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits by no cigar.
Ended up buying Zrace levers and they are a fantastic combo with the DB8 calipers
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx...
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits...
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits by no cigar.
Ended up buying Zrace levers and they are a fantastic combo with the DB8 calipers
I do want to try and find some Lewis radial cylinder levers (lv4 ones) to try, but I’d probably wait until tariffs calm down
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits...
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits by no cigar.
Ended up buying Zrace levers and they are a fantastic combo with the DB8 calipers
Hello brake nerds. I subjected my partner and best friend to a year of brake swaps to get their opinions. We made a low production value video talking about our thoughts.
I would also like to contribute some brake info because I actually took the time to disassemble and measure the master cylinder diameters.
Really interesting how different the Lewis and Hayes feel with identical hydraulic specs. Lever geometry, leverage curve, return spring rate, seal friction, and pad compound all add up.
Also I feel like formula would make a few running changes and be competing with the top dogs.
Upcoming Brembo specs put it above the Mavens in terms of hydraulic leverage. I pulled on a set at Champery worlds and the lever feel seemed really good as well.
Also very interested to get my hands on the Hope GR4's and Maven Base. So if anyone wants to buy/trade some of these brakes hit me up haha
Hello brake nerds. I subjected my partner and best friend to a year of brake swaps to get their opinions. We made a low production value...
Hello brake nerds. I subjected my partner and best friend to a year of brake swaps to get their opinions. We made a low production value video talking about our thoughts.
I would also like to contribute some brake info because I actually took the time to disassemble and measure the master cylinder diameters.
Really interesting how different the Lewis and Hayes feel with identical hydraulic specs. Lever geometry, leverage curve, return spring rate, seal friction, and pad compound all add up.
Also I feel like formula would make a few running changes and be competing with the top dogs.
Upcoming Brembo specs put it above the Mavens in terms of hydraulic leverage. I pulled on a set at Champery worlds and the lever feel seemed really good as well.
Also very interested to get my hands on the Hope GR4's and Maven Base. So if anyone wants to buy/trade some of these brakes hit me up haha
First, I really appreciate the work that it took to do this. I can't even begin to imagine.
Second, what are the changes you spoke about to the Formula's to compete with the big dogs?
Lastly, did you ever come up with any of the data from the brake ace for the Lewis vs Hayes?
Whats people's favorite Shimano lever alternative but keeping the shimano calipers? Shimano lever blades just snap so easily I'd like to try something else.
So they don’t use a control pad or a control rotor?Their test setup photos don’t look like they properly apply the force to the pocket of...
So they don’t use a control pad or a control rotor?
Their test setup photos don’t look like they properly apply the force to the pocket of the brake lever either.
Junk science all around IMO.
I inferred that they tested the XTR's as a set with the XTR rotor, the SLX's as a set with the SLX rotor, Hayes' as a set with the Hayes rotor, Formula with Formula, etc...
They then also tested with Sinter pads as control. They missed a few combinations and the hypothesis/method/apparatus/etc isn't described with technical rigor, so perhaps it wouldn't pass as a scientific paper, but it's not a scientific paper. I feel that I can make meaning of the results.
Thanks for the reply, TeamRobot!
TRP EVO Pro Question.
This is for folks that have run both the EVO Pro and the DH-R Evo's. I ran DH-Rs prior to some MT7s (HC3) then currently some Lewis options on my two primary bikes. I prefer my levers pretty close and just the index into the end curve, which resulted in me having to use Freedom Coast levers to get them close enough on the DH-R's. Ultimately I ended up moving on from them because I was forced to either sacrifice on brake lever position or shift lever position, which was not great for a thumb that has been through shit, skiing and mechanicing.
Question: Is there more room for setup variation on the new master cylinder, or is it the same. How about reach compared to the original with Freedom Coast levers?
Also considering trying some Hayes, but I have a bunch of mineral oil...
I haven't ridden the new Shimano brakes, but I can tell you that if you love the TRP's you'll miss them. I have TRP's on my primary bike and had XT's on my downhill bike. We did 6 park weekends back to back and I rode XT's for those weeks then went back to the TRP's and it took me a couple rides to readjust. Within 2 months I had TRP's on the downhill.
I really would love to try out Hayes but the whole family rides Shimano and it's nice to use the same pads (and fluid) across the board.
Slapped a set of Mavens on my Sight only to find that the little tangs on the Maven pads don't clear the the carrier on my XTR Freeza rotors
Probably just going to chop the tangs off the pads while waiting for new rotors as my buddy said he'd swing me a new set of HS2's for $$. Anyone else run into this?
Had an interference issue with my dominions paired with RT86 rotors. Unfortunately it meant I defaulted to some centrelines I had, which suck.
It has been years and I still have the centrelines. Really need to do something about that lol.
I've discussed these kinds of brake combos with him and he persistantly insists that they don't have a lot of throw (which just isn't true). The brake will have tons of power but will naturally have lots of throw. I tried a Radic/Gustav setup and the lever throw was 28mm with the pads against the rotor. For some reason he likes to mislead.
Love the levers. Bumped up the ergonomics and also modulation + power is much better! Looks good aswell 😎
Bro I think you gotta stop dragging brake
RE: glazing issues. I also run the TRP S05E rotors also and occasionally drag brakes, depending on trail, depending on how steep. But that's cause it's steep, and they certainly are getting hot (I have a rotor shaped burn mark on my right arm from the last time I crashed - bike landed on me and rotor touched my arm for like 2sec before I could shove it off). They are my favorite rotor because of how true they come out of the box, and how quiet. For myself and others using them, the HS2 is decent and widely available, but always require a lot of truing out of the box. I forget if Galfer makes their Sharks in 180mm - but those are pretty good too. They're not as true as TRP though, offer the sharpest bite feel, and tend to be noisier. I also have noticed they produce a weird wear pattern on pads from the holes. Their Wave rotors are really noisy, and I had one come badly warped out of the box (so much I couldn't fix it). I'd run HS2 over Waves.
IME, Galfer green pads last 1/4 the time of sintered/metallic pads. I do think that you want organic/hybrid pads though if you think you're struggling to heat up the pads enough.
One final thought - if you want to try and correct your brake dragging habits, I'd suggest trying to make your brakes as powerful and sharp biting as possible. It will force you to brake in short bursts. Also at the same time try to practice braking early.
Your final tip is what helped me.
I had pretty good service out of the cheap Shimano RT66 but they wore too thin way too quickly. They only lasted one set of organic pads before they were under spec. Unexceptable.
Where are you guys finding the HS1's cheap? They are the same price as my go to rotor, the TRP ROS1E.
Maybe a paint removal air gun would also work? They go up to 600 degrees Celsius and might be more useful for a home mechanic that doesn't have either...
If nothing else, even at the same temperature, a flame will also burn off oily residue while an air gun might not.
Just curious—why IPA over brake cleaner?
no residues left from additives
Much better taste and less painful hangover.
So after a decade on shimano brakes I’ve got some cheap db8s in the mail. I’ll definitely try them as is and likely switch to mtx pads at some point, but I also have a set of maven bronze levers. I’ve seen a lot about using the maven calipers, but had anyone swapped the maven levers over?
why would you get the levers and not the maven calipers which is what makes them good
Cuz when a friend gives you the levers and keeps the calipers you end up with the levers and not the calipers
I've been itching to try Shimano levers with the DB8 calipers. I think it'd be a neat thing to try.
I have tried this, but they were secondhand old xt deore levers and they were leaky AF. Tried to resurrect them with after market seal kits by no cigar.
Ended up buying Zrace levers and they are a fantastic combo with the DB8 calipers
I do want to try and find some Lewis radial cylinder levers (lv4 ones) to try, but I’d probably wait until tariffs calm down
I'm now on MT7's with the zrace levers on one bike (mave some MT5's to put on the other bike that is currently running the zrams...
Hello brake nerds. I subjected my partner and best friend to a year of brake swaps to get their opinions. We made a low production value video talking about our thoughts.
I would also like to contribute some brake info because I actually took the time to disassemble and measure the master cylinder diameters.
Really interesting how different the Lewis and Hayes feel with identical hydraulic specs. Lever geometry, leverage curve, return spring rate, seal friction, and pad compound all add up.
Also I feel like formula would make a few running changes and be competing with the top dogs.
Upcoming Brembo specs put it above the Mavens in terms of hydraulic leverage. I pulled on a set at Champery worlds and the lever feel seemed really good as well.
Also very interested to get my hands on the Hope GR4's and Maven Base. So if anyone wants to buy/trade some of these brakes hit me up haha
First, I really appreciate the work that it took to do this. I can't even begin to imagine.
Second, what are the changes you spoke about to the Formula's to compete with the big dogs?
Lastly, did you ever come up with any of the data from the brake ace for the Lewis vs Hayes?
Whats people's favorite Shimano lever alternative but keeping the shimano calipers? Shimano lever blades just snap so easily I'd like to try something else.
@Evwan @iceman2058 backlink
Different rotors = different cooling.
So they don’t use a control pad or a control rotor?
Their test setup photos don’t look like they properly apply the force to the pocket of the brake lever either.
Junk science all around IMO.
I inferred that they tested the XTR's as a set with the XTR rotor, the SLX's as a set with the SLX rotor, Hayes' as a set with the Hayes rotor, Formula with Formula, etc...
They then also tested with Sinter pads as control. They missed a few combinations and the hypothesis/method/apparatus/etc isn't described with technical rigor, so perhaps it wouldn't pass as a scientific paper, but it's not a scientific paper. I feel that I can make meaning of the results.
Iirc they use the product as shipped, as it's much more relevant than people mix and matching which doesn't happen on stock bikes.
It's one of the better brake tests done, sorry it's not to your standards.
I'll kindly wait your entirely free review of 14 brake systems in and out of the lab, until then, maybe be a touch more accepting.
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment