After hearing Team Robot mention this bike during the Podium video, I want a Mountain Cycle Shockwave 9.5 with modern geometry and 29in wheels.. I had one and I loved it.. Especially since the linkage looked like it came out of the Pro Circuit catalog.. Replaced the 5th Element with a Romic (The ROCO wasn't available yet..) and added the floating brake arm... It was a plow monster.. About 10 years ago I saw the bike.. A friend of a coworker bought it off the guy i sold it too..
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
After hearing Team Robot mention this bike during the Podium video, I want a Mountain Cycle Shockwave 9.5 with modern geometry and 29in wheels.. I had...
After hearing Team Robot mention this bike during the Podium video, I want a Mountain Cycle Shockwave 9.5 with modern geometry and 29in wheels.. I had one and I loved it.. Especially since the linkage looked like it came out of the Pro Circuit catalog.. Replaced the 5th Element with a Romic (The ROCO wasn't available yet..) and added the floating brake arm... It was a plow monster.. About 10 years ago I saw the bike.. A friend of a coworker bought it off the guy i sold it too..
The geo was whack but the rear suspension was amazing (to my 17-18 year old self at least).
Also, mega points for the O.G. Intense sticky rubber shoes.
edited by sspomer - brand asked this post be removed.
Yes!!!!! Modularity!!!! I actually love this idea, and I love the idea that they have the Slash as a high pivot and Fuel as a low pivot, but both can be set up with similar travel numbers.
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options as there are right now.
In germany 2024 non-motorised MTBs are merely about 3% of total non-e-bikes sold (if you compare it to the actual bike sales (E-Bikes + Non-E-Bikes) which is about 3,9 million bikes its even more evident - 1,3 %). In total numbers thats about 54.000 MTBs (over all makes and MTB types). Thats cargobike terretory - lol
The carbon version actually looks sick with those paint jobs 👀
I thought the last gen Trek Fuel EX-e looked better than the non-e version last time as well tbh. The EX-e looks a bit more resolved around the BB area where the EX has an empty space that doesn't seem to serve any real purpose.
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options...
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options as there are right now.
In germany 2024 non-motorised MTBs are merely about 3% of total non-e-bikes sold (if you compare it to the actual bike sales (E-Bikes + Non-E-Bikes) which is about 3,9 million bikes its even more evident - 1,3 %). In total numbers thats about 54.000 MTBs (over all makes and MTB types). Thats cargobike terretory - lol
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options...
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options as there are right now.
In germany 2024 non-motorised MTBs are merely about 3% of total non-e-bikes sold (if you compare it to the actual bike sales (E-Bikes + Non-E-Bikes) which is about 3,9 million bikes its even more evident - 1,3 %). In total numbers thats about 54.000 MTBs (over all makes and MTB types). Thats cargobike terretory - lol
Am I the only one thinking this can't be profitable over the long term?
I'm pretty sure both Trek and Specialized have said they're aiming to reduce the number of SKUs they sell. It already looks like the Kenevo and Kenevo SL, for example, won't be getting updated. And the Stumpjumper 15 has taken the place of both the regular Stumpy and the Evo, I think we will see more of this consolidation as we go on.
I think this could lead to a market where small, boutique brands continue to make limited runs of high-end bikes, while the mid-range options become more scarce as the economics get difficult for the bigger companies.
It reminds me of something I read once: the engineering challenge of a VW Golf is much bigger than a Bugatti Veyron. Making something that is both good and affordable to manufacture is far more difficult than throwing the kitchen sink at a small run of incredibly expensive cars that will only ever be bought by a select few. It’s easy to make something awesome without a price target; the real challenge is making something great that’s also affordable. Probably similar to how there are still plenty of sports cars in the high end but a very limited range of mid to low end sports cars as it just isn't an easy market to compete in.
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many...
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
Are we a good example for anything lol? Is it really that different in other european countries? Could be, would be good for the non-motorised MTB.
The Germany ebike vs normal bike sales numbers have come up before.
The question I have not seen an answer to is how many of those ebike/ pedal bikes are being used for actual off road mountain biking? The fact that Ebikes are leading the paved commuter bike sales in Germany really has no relevance to off road use of a mtb like we discuss here.
Regarding longer travel links, Bird at least has been doing it for almost 10 years now - since sometime between 2015 and 2019 for the Aeris 145 (bumped up to 160 mm with a different link) and since 2023ish for the Aether 9 which can be bumped up from 160 to 180 mm with a different link.
Quick rant, does anyone else think Treks new e-bike naming convention sucks.
EX-e was fine, easy to search, minimal, clearly differentiated it from the non-ebike versions.
Their new naming convention seems to just be putting + after everything. Fuel+, Rail+, Slash+ etc. It doesn't work at all from an SEO perspective, the + ends up getting lost in google and you end up with a bunch of results for outgoing bikes or non-ebike versions when you search it. And Slash-e is way more fun to say than Slash+.
The idea of the variable path was what he was going for, but not the high and low speed shaft movements doing different of axle paths...
The idea of the variable path was what he was going for, but not the high and low speed shaft movements doing different of axle paths. It was called VST. I’ve talked to Frank about this and even asked him about making one for me. He said the axle path almost looked like a football shape, it would move backwards up and then forward and you can pump it railroad track and just generate speed.
This is an old image and screen grab I found off of a forum from the early 2010s
I spent a few hundred hours riding the VST prototypes. Still, to this day, I have yet to ride a bike that goes so damn fast in a straight line.
There was so much drama in that era of Sinister, it’s too bad development stopped on that project, two or three more prototypes and I think we would have ended up with a production-ready bike.
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many...
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10 is closer to stock than not, and we all know how his season is going. Maybe there are a few special parts hung from his bike, but the difference is likely pretty small between what he is running and what we can buy (IE, Grip-X vs Grip-2). Put differently, if you were to hang totally off the shelf parts from his bike and have him race a weekend, I still wouldn't bet against him winning.
The one area the top guys/gals have resources that we mostly ignore is in the "bike fit" category. Fancy suspension, TMDs, suspension layouts etc are all fun but I'm always surprised how changing small things around how the bike fits me translates to a big difference on track/trail.
Its not so much access to special parts as it is making those parts work really well for the person riding them.
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many...
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10...
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10 is closer to stock than not, and we all know how his season is going. Maybe there are a few special parts hung from his bike, but the difference is likely pretty small between what he is running and what we can buy (IE, Grip-X vs Grip-2). Put differently, if you were to hang totally off the shelf parts from his bike and have him race a weekend, I still wouldn't bet against him winning.
The one area the top guys/gals have resources that we mostly ignore is in the "bike fit" category. Fancy suspension, TMDs, suspension layouts etc are all fun but I'm always surprised how changing small things around how the bike fits me translates to a big difference on track/trail.
Its not so much access to special parts as it is making those parts work really well for the person riding them.
Based on my lack of riding this year and everything this brings with it, a lot of what you say, so bike fit, I think comes down to having enough time to try things out and test them back to back and also knowing what to look for improvement wise.
The Germany ebike vs normal bike sales numbers have come up before. The question I have not seen an answer to is how many of those ebike/...
The Germany ebike vs normal bike sales numbers have come up before.
The question I have not seen an answer to is how many of those ebike/ pedal bikes are being used for actual off road mountain biking? The fact that Ebikes are leading the paved commuter bike sales in Germany really has no relevance to off road use of a mtb like we discuss here.
While that's surely true and I completely agree with you on that. 3% of total non-e-bike sales is still very low. So low even that I could absolutely understand that any bikebrand would want to reduce "SKUs" or models.
Even though germany's bikemarket is probably not comparable to the world, I'd assume that almost nobody buys a MTB in germany to use as 90%+ commuter like it is with the EMTBs...
Sorry for kinda off-topic again just wanted to try and clear that up.
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many...
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10...
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10 is closer to stock than not, and we all know how his season is going. Maybe there are a few special parts hung from his bike, but the difference is likely pretty small between what he is running and what we can buy (IE, Grip-X vs Grip-2). Put differently, if you were to hang totally off the shelf parts from his bike and have him race a weekend, I still wouldn't bet against him winning.
The one area the top guys/gals have resources that we mostly ignore is in the "bike fit" category. Fancy suspension, TMDs, suspension layouts etc are all fun but I'm always surprised how changing small things around how the bike fits me translates to a big difference on track/trail.
Its not so much access to special parts as it is making those parts work really well for the person riding them.
It's clearly the tires making the difference for Jackson
edited by sspomer - brand asked this post be removed.
I get that theres nothing new under the sun (to quote scripture), and that no matter how cool of an idea you come up with, someone will point to some mad scientist dong it in 2002 already, but more recently I think it was Guerrilla Gravity pioneering the resuable, modular frame design across travel brackets and models. They took it to an extreme with dramatic reach adjustments via modular, oval headset spacers. They could cover 4 sizes (I think?) and 3-4 modesl with just two molds.
My worry is you are forced to forgo tuned stiffness. A short travel bike needs to be a lot less stiff than an enduro bike since you have less travel to help you and the fork itself is shorter, so its a shorter lever on the frame.
I think the spring was only there to return the link to the "normal" position, and the dial was preload to tune the crossover point. The...
I think the spring was only there to return the link to the "normal" position, and the dial was preload to tune the crossover point. The idea was when descending the link moved backwards to make a longer travel/more progressive linkage, then when you started pedalling the chain tension would pull it forwards back in to the high/steep position. I think a bit like canyon shapeshifter but automatic
To further differentiate it from the Canyon Shapeshifter, the little link gave it about 1cm of rear axle movement as well, independent of the vertical suspension travel. Imagine if every square edged hit had 1cm of elastomer foam on the front of it. Or your tires were 1cm taller, like a 650B+ tire, but only in a rearward direction. For its time it rode so well.
I wonder if its worth resurrecting the idea, or if modern suspension and geo being so good that its not really adding anything.
Regarding those new Trek fuel ex’s, I think Trek did themselves good by departing from these “busy”-looking frames. I actually really like the look of the new frame. But the beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
And big yes to adaptability on suspension travel, geometry and wheel sizes. I think the YT could h e done that easily with their Capras and Jeffsys. The Jeffsy has 8mm difference on the flip chip. Not quite enough to offset a 27.5 rear wheel but closer than other bikes where it’s a 3mm difference or so.
Long story short, I like where the adaptability is going (if it’s well executed and doesn’t cause a bunch of creaking, etc.)
After hearing Team Robot mention this bike during the Podium video, I want a Mountain Cycle Shockwave 9.5 with modern geometry and 29in wheels.. I had one and I loved it.. Especially since the linkage looked like it came out of the Pro Circuit catalog.. Replaced the 5th Element with a Romic (The ROCO wasn't available yet..) and added the floating brake arm... It was a plow monster.. About 10 years ago I saw the bike.. A friend of a coworker bought it off the guy i sold it too..
Alex Morgan was WAY ahead of his time. When I see all these pics from the past I am still amazed that even with so many creative smart dudes working on all this stuff it still took us so long to get to the modern geo we have today. Look at the HTA on that bike! There was barely anyone riding carbon like that in the 90's and he was makin those bikes himself. Alex was such an interesting dude. I hope he has continued to be so productive.
one of the best things about todays modern age is how you can buy an freakin amazing bike that is not much different than a factory team bike for not even all that much money- and now with unprotected riders at the world cup DH's we are seeing some day job dudes mixing it up again prime time on the weekends in the summer. Enduro seems to level out the equipment advantages even more.
Just noticed Dakota is off the Yoshimura prototype clip in pedals back on to Mallets.
Looks interesting. Would like to see 38mm stanchions and a fully once piece CSU.
Common sand? Don't be such a peasant. Surely it's lead shot.
The geo was whack but the rear suspension was amazing (to my 17-18 year old self at least).
Also, mega points for the O.G. Intense sticky rubber shoes.
edited by sspomer - brand asked this post be removed.
Yes!!!!! Modularity!!!! I actually love this idea, and I love the idea that they have the Slash as a high pivot and Fuel as a low pivot, but both can be set up with similar travel numbers.
I think every bike brand will do this at least for their non-e-bikes pretty soon. I am honestly still amazed that there as many non-e-bike options as there are right now.
In germany 2024 non-motorised MTBs are merely about 3% of total non-e-bikes sold (if you compare it to the actual bike sales (E-Bikes + Non-E-Bikes) which is about 3,9 million bikes its even more evident - 1,3 %). In total numbers thats about 54.000 MTBs (over all makes and MTB types). Thats cargobike terretory - lol
Source ZIV
Am I the only one thinking this can't be profitable over the long term?
The carbon version actually looks sick with those paint jobs 👀
I thought the last gen Trek Fuel EX-e looked better than the non-e version last time as well tbh. The EX-e looks a bit more resolved around the BB area where the EX has an empty space that doesn't seem to serve any real purpose.
Germany is not a good example in that respect
I'm pretty sure both Trek and Specialized have said they're aiming to reduce the number of SKUs they sell. It already looks like the Kenevo and Kenevo SL, for example, won't be getting updated. And the Stumpjumper 15 has taken the place of both the regular Stumpy and the Evo, I think we will see more of this consolidation as we go on.
I think this could lead to a market where small, boutique brands continue to make limited runs of high-end bikes, while the mid-range options become more scarce as the economics get difficult for the bigger companies.
It reminds me of something I read once: the engineering challenge of a VW Golf is much bigger than a Bugatti Veyron. Making something that is both good and affordable to manufacture is far more difficult than throwing the kitchen sink at a small run of incredibly expensive cars that will only ever be bought by a select few. It’s easy to make something awesome without a price target; the real challenge is making something great that’s also affordable. Probably similar to how there are still plenty of sports cars in the high end but a very limited range of mid to low end sports cars as it just isn't an easy market to compete in.
Are we a good example for anything lol? Is it really that different in other european countries? Could be, would be good for the non-motorised MTB.
Bring back Alex and Sanjay!!!!!!
The Germany ebike vs normal bike sales numbers have come up before.
The question I have not seen an answer to is how many of those ebike/ pedal bikes are being used for actual off road mountain biking? The fact that Ebikes are leading the paved commuter bike sales in Germany really has no relevance to off road use of a mtb like we discuss here.
Looks like Yoshimura's under his foot
Regarding longer travel links, Bird at least has been doing it for almost 10 years now - since sometime between 2015 and 2019 for the Aeris 145 (bumped up to 160 mm with a different link) and since 2023ish for the Aether 9 which can be bumped up from 160 to 180 mm with a different link.
Quick rant, does anyone else think Treks new e-bike naming convention sucks.
EX-e was fine, easy to search, minimal, clearly differentiated it from the non-ebike versions.
Their new naming convention seems to just be putting + after everything. Fuel+, Rail+, Slash+ etc. It doesn't work at all from an SEO perspective, the + ends up getting lost in google and you end up with a bunch of results for outgoing bikes or non-ebike versions when you search it. And Slash-e is way more fun to say than Slash+.
I spent a few hundred hours riding the VST prototypes. Still, to this day, I have yet to ride a bike that goes so damn fast in a straight line.
There was so much drama in that era of Sinister, it’s too bad development stopped on that project, two or three more prototypes and I think we would have ended up with a production-ready bike.
I'd bet the delta between what we can go buy and what the top guys are running is a lot tighter than most think. Jackson's V10 is closer to stock than not, and we all know how his season is going. Maybe there are a few special parts hung from his bike, but the difference is likely pretty small between what he is running and what we can buy (IE, Grip-X vs Grip-2). Put differently, if you were to hang totally off the shelf parts from his bike and have him race a weekend, I still wouldn't bet against him winning.
The one area the top guys/gals have resources that we mostly ignore is in the "bike fit" category. Fancy suspension, TMDs, suspension layouts etc are all fun but I'm always surprised how changing small things around how the bike fits me translates to a big difference on track/trail.
Its not so much access to special parts as it is making those parts work really well for the person riding them.
Based on my lack of riding this year and everything this brings with it, a lot of what you say, so bike fit, I think comes down to having enough time to try things out and test them back to back and also knowing what to look for improvement wise.
Weird! Check out Wyn's on track. He is absolutely on a silver pair of Mallets.
While that's surely true and I completely agree with you on that. 3% of total non-e-bike sales is still very low. So low even that I could absolutely understand that any bikebrand would want to reduce "SKUs" or models.
Even though germany's bikemarket is probably not comparable to the world, I'd assume that almost nobody buys a MTB in germany to use as 90%+ commuter like it is with the EMTBs...
Sorry for kinda off-topic again just wanted to try and clear that up.
That was Greg Williamson.
Oof. Going to the optometrist this morning haha. My bad!
It's clearly the tires making the difference for Jackson
I get that theres nothing new under the sun (to quote scripture), and that no matter how cool of an idea you come up with, someone will point to some mad scientist dong it in 2002 already, but more recently I think it was Guerrilla Gravity pioneering the resuable, modular frame design across travel brackets and models. They took it to an extreme with dramatic reach adjustments via modular, oval headset spacers. They could cover 4 sizes (I think?) and 3-4 modesl with just two molds.
My worry is you are forced to forgo tuned stiffness. A short travel bike needs to be a lot less stiff than an enduro bike since you have less travel to help you and the fork itself is shorter, so its a shorter lever on the frame.
To further differentiate it from the Canyon Shapeshifter, the little link gave it about 1cm of rear axle movement as well, independent of the vertical suspension travel. Imagine if every square edged hit had 1cm of elastomer foam on the front of it. Or your tires were 1cm taller, like a 650B+ tire, but only in a rearward direction. For its time it rode so well.
I wonder if its worth resurrecting the idea, or if modern suspension and geo being so good that its not really adding anything.
Regarding those new Trek fuel ex’s, I think Trek did themselves good by departing from these “busy”-looking frames. I actually really like the look of the new frame. But the beauty is in the eye of the beholder…
And big yes to adaptability on suspension travel, geometry and wheel sizes.
I think the YT could h e done that easily with their Capras and Jeffsys. The Jeffsy has 8mm difference on the flip chip. Not quite enough to offset a 27.5 rear wheel but closer than other bikes where it’s a 3mm difference or so.
Long story short, I like where the adaptability is going (if it’s well executed and doesn’t cause a bunch of creaking, etc.)