Plenty of people are out there pedaling dual crown forks around or converting their forks to coil.If it performs well nobody will give two shits what...
Plenty of people are out there pedaling dual crown forks around or converting their forks to coil.
If it performs well nobody will give two shits what it weighs.
People are riding 42lb enduro bikes and love them. Lightweight bikes were a curse to the sport. So many performance compromises in pursuit of light bikes.
My Spire with a dual crown weighs more than my tr11 but obviously pedals much better. Might even weight more with a 38 instead of a z1. But I wouldn't mind if both bikes worked as well and weighed less!
Would be a cool feature if you can select different weights or just a rubberized guard if you want as light as possible. I could see a clean adjustable weight system being a feature on bikes in the future. Considering how long guys have been zip tie/duct taping weights their bikes for certain tracks I’m surprised no company has done this sooner.
From a buyers perspective, 20mm axle sucks, as DH bikes seem to be fading, and the popularity of DH hubs with it. I’m assuming it has...
From a buyers perspective, 20mm axle sucks, as DH bikes seem to be fading, and the popularity of DH hubs with it. I’m assuming it has some serious upsides for stiffness etc. But most will need a new hub, which is like $100-200 + spokes and labor. Worse if you have multiple bikes because they may no longer be swap able between bikes.
Hope front hubs for life and luckily the list of 148 DH bikes is growing day by day. (Canyon, YT, Transition, GT, Forbidden, Spesh, Frameworks) Glad...
Hope front hubs for life and luckily the list of 148 DH bikes is growing day by day. (Canyon, YT, Transition, GT, Forbidden, Spesh, Frameworks) Glad the industry is having to cave a little on these incremental improvements that could end up robbing you of a day of riding if you don’t have backup parts. Very interested to see if the new Demo is still 148.
I reckon the new demo is gonna solve the 148 issue by using a 148 super-wide hub like the session is doing. In my eyes this...
I reckon the new demo is gonna solve the 148 issue by using a 148 super-wide hub like the session is doing. In my eyes this is exactly what specialized is up to rn. Only applies to the r2r builds they are going to release obviously.
I am unfamiliar with this, cam you explain? I thought the session was 157.
But you also have a triangle connecting the rear wheel to the front or at least a single piece box section, not a bushinged tube in...
But you also have a triangle connecting the rear wheel to the front or at least a single piece box section, not a bushinged tube in tube arrangement where the two tubes can rotate one relative to the other. These details do wonders for stiffness. QED, 20 years ago it was completely normal to run a 20 mm axle in the front and a QR in the back.
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and...
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and steel axle one piece even though they were much smaller diameter (9mm at 100mm width vs 15mm at 110mm) I would guess they weren't much less stiff. One popular bike channel compared the two few years ago, don't remember his name but he was engineer and I think he worked with hambini on some videos.
Plenty of people are out there pedaling dual crown forks around or converting their forks to coil.If it performs well nobody will give two shits what...
Plenty of people are out there pedaling dual crown forks around or converting their forks to coil.
If it performs well nobody will give two shits what it weighs.
I’d give 3
Same reason while even for a 170 fork I wouldn’t pick a 38 or a zeb, I don’t need 300 extra grams in there giving me nothing more than a 36 would especially being not too heavy or a racer going fast af
Since the 15 mm standard proliferated, the majority of hubs are native 15 mm (or QR if convertible) and there are less and less 20 mm...
Since the 15 mm standard proliferated, the majority of hubs are native 15 mm (or QR if convertible) and there are less and less 20 mm compatible hubs out there.
As for the Orbea, it's both, a weight carrying system and the lower shock mount. Probably there to be able to adapt it to less travel (shorter ETE shock) given the rumors that this is basically a new Rallon.
From what I’ve been able to find out—and judging by Orbea’s Instagram post—it’s more than certain that there’s a new Rallon coming.
There will be one DH version with Fox Factory suspension and a 225x75 shock, while the rest will likely be enduro-oriented, probably using a 205x65mm shock. I'm not sure whether the lower shock mount will be interchangeable or not.
But you also have a triangle connecting the rear wheel to the front or at least a single piece box section, not a bushinged tube in...
But you also have a triangle connecting the rear wheel to the front or at least a single piece box section, not a bushinged tube in tube arrangement where the two tubes can rotate one relative to the other. These details do wonders for stiffness. QED, 20 years ago it was completely normal to run a 20 mm axle in the front and a QR in the back.
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and...
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and steel axle one piece even though they were much smaller diameter (9mm at 100mm width vs 15mm at 110mm) I would guess they weren't much less stiff. One popular bike channel compared the two few years ago, don't remember his name but he was engineer and I think he worked with hambini on some videos.
And like we discussed, for the stiffness we are looking for more axial clamping force does not necessarily mean more stiffness. Which means it's interesting Peak Torque missed this point as he's usually very good at engineering stuff (I do recommend watching his videos, though they are primarily road oriented).
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and...
Awesome you brought the qr in to equation, old qts had a higher clamping force than thru axles we run these days, essentially making dropouts and steel axle one piece even though they were much smaller diameter (9mm at 100mm width vs 15mm at 110mm) I would guess they weren't much less stiff. One popular bike channel compared the two few years ago, don't remember his name but he was engineer and I think he worked with hambini on some videos.
Like I said, QR through axles were not tested.And like we discussed, for the stiffness we are looking for more axial clamping force does not necessarily...
Like I said, QR through axles were not tested.
And like we discussed, for the stiffness we are looking for more axial clamping force does not necessarily mean more stiffness. Which means it's interesting Peak Torque missed this point as he's usually very good at engineering stuff (I do recommend watching his videos, though they are primarily road oriented).
FWIW I agree with all that, clamping force isn't the same as stiffness etc. Just figured I could be helpful by dropping the link because I knew exactly which video it was.
Yes many factors with axle thickness can play a roll. The clamps make a giant change as well. The dorado going from 1 bolt upper to...
Yes many factors with axle thickness can play a roll. The clamps make a giant change as well. The dorado going from 1 bolt upper to 2 bolt upper added a lot of torsional rigidity.
Who makes this 20mm to 15mm adapter and is it Boxxer specific or do they make them for other forks?
Thanks. I've been running Joe's setup on a DH38 lowered to 180mm with a 15mm axle for a year. He had an issue with the first gen that he was absolutely amazing about owning up to when I thought it was me who made the mistake / caused the problem. I wanted to buy a replacement part that I thought I broke and he sent me a new redesigned part for this year and I'll be giving it a go when I finally get a chance to use the big bike. I like the setup he came up with but was curious what else was out there and the post above looked very clean and robust.
Since the 15 mm standard proliferated, the majority of hubs are native 15 mm (or QR if convertible) and there are less and less 20 mm...
Since the 15 mm standard proliferated, the majority of hubs are native 15 mm (or QR if convertible) and there are less and less 20 mm compatible hubs out there.
As for the Orbea, it's both, a weight carrying system and the lower shock mount. Probably there to be able to adapt it to less travel (shorter ETE shock) given the rumors that this is basically a new Rallon.
i'd agree that fewer companies are offering prebuilt wheels with 20mm hubs, and companies that are just getting into hubs (oneup) aren't offering 20mm. but there are still plenty of 20mm hub options available:
king, hope, hadley, DT, i9, onyx, novatec, shimano, sram, sun ringle, reverse, e13, project 321, i'm sure there's more.
Who makes this 20mm to 15mm adapter and is it Boxxer specific or do they make them for other forks?
Freaky Nuts also makes them. I'm considering put a Fox 40 on my A.170 for park use this season and ordered one of these for the conversion if I go that way. The materials seem to be of high quality. Compatible with Boxxer, Fox 40 and Rux38.
Yes many factors with axle thickness can play a roll. The clamps make a giant change as well. The dorado going from 1 bolt upper to...
Yes many factors with axle thickness can play a roll. The clamps make a giant change as well. The dorado going from 1 bolt upper to 2 bolt upper added a lot of torsional rigidity.
Freaky Nuts also makes them. I'm considering put a Fox 40 on my A.170 for park use this season and ordered one of these for the...
Freaky Nuts also makes them. I'm considering put a Fox 40 on my A.170 for park use this season and ordered one of these for the conversion if I go that way. The materials seem to be of high quality. Compatible with Boxxer, Fox 40 and Rux38.
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or titanium. I've not done the calculations (@Primoz, didn't you do that?), but I imagine it could be as stiff as thin walled aluminum 20mm axles.
If you look at huck to flat videos it seems that the worst of the flex is at or around the crown. The most productive solution for single crown forks might be to return to 100mm OLD - a 10% narrower CSU would be 10% stiffer.
P.S I have a 190mm air spring for a fox 40 available for anyone looking to lower a set for their park / enduro setups 🙂 drop me a message if you’re interested
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or...
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or titanium. I've not done the calculations (@Primoz, didn't you do that?), but I imagine it could be as stiff as thin walled aluminum 20mm axles.
If you look at huck to flat videos it seems that the worst of the flex is at or around the crown. The most productive solution for single crown forks might be to return to 100mm OLD - a 10% narrower CSU would be 10% stiffer.
Yeah, it was included (had to even check it as I didn't remember).
15 and 20 mm axles with thicknesses of 1, 2, 2,5, 3 and 4 mm were compared. Thickness and diameter have an effect on torsion with USD forks, but still somewhat minor (roughly 10 % going from 10 to 20 mm with the same thickness).
While clamping width was tested I think the main difference was the stiffness of the 'dropout' as the whole assembly was bonded together. Ideally a system with realistic clearances would be simulated (and tested) to show real world differences as it will not be the same, even with pinchbolts clamping down on the axle.
FWIW, old 20 mm Maxles were interesting as they had expanding cones on both sides wedging themselves into the dropouts of the fork AND a step in the axle pressing the hub towards the NDS dropout (aligning the rotor every time) and possibly allowing some float in the dropout for the lower to run smoother. Come to think of it, do modern forks have more clearance in the bushings to offset this issue? @Dave_Camp any insights on this one?
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or...
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or titanium. I've not done the calculations (@Primoz, didn't you do that?), but I imagine it could be as stiff as thin walled aluminum 20mm axles.
If you look at huck to flat videos it seems that the worst of the flex is at or around the crown. The most productive solution for single crown forks might be to return to 100mm OLD - a 10% narrower CSU would be 10% stiffer.
15 and 20 mm axles with thicknesses of 1, 2, 2,5, 3 and 4 mm were compared. Thickness and diameter have an effect on torsion with USD forks, but still somewhat minor (roughly 10 % going from 10 to 20 mm with the same thickness).
While clamping width was tested I think the main difference was the stiffness of the 'dropout' as the whole assembly was bonded together. Ideally a system with realistic clearances would be simulated (and tested) to show real world differences as it will not be the same, even with pinchbolts clamping down on the axle.
FWIW, old 20 mm Maxles were interesting as they had expanding cones on both sides wedging themselves into the dropouts of the fork AND a step in the axle pressing the hub towards the NDS dropout (aligning the rotor every time) and possibly allowing some float in the dropout for the lower to run smoother. Come to think of it, do modern forks have more clearance in the bushings to offset this issue? @Dave_Camp any insights on this one?
I forgot to mention that 100mm OLD would also be 10% stiffer for the axle and for the arch.
I remember various fork and component engineers shaking their heads in disbelief when the industry decided to settle on 15x110 rather than 15x100. Spoke triangulation has always been better for front wheels than rear, wheel manufacturers seem to chase front wheel compliance.
That's correct, those are freedom coast. I have those on one bike and a set of oak components on another. I prefer the oak components.
You put either of them on Mavens? I know the PB review of both on TRPs preferred Oaks as well. I was curious if they change the Maven feel at all other than adding texture. I don't have any issue with the stock Maven levers, but the Oaks look pretty.
That's correct, those are freedom coast. I have those on one bike and a set of oak components on another. I prefer the oak components.
How do the Oaks compare to the Freedoms in shape? Are the Oaks any closer to the bars, or basically the same? Have the Freedoms but would be interested in Oaks if they sit closer to the bars.
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems to be double taping the rim. Once with the Dt-Swiss rim tape and then a layer of Gorilla Tape over the top?
What could the reasons be behind this? It looks like the DT tape is going from edge to edge so the Gorilla wouldn't be offering any additional adhesive. Is it a tape thickness thing? Never seen anyone double tape like that before.
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems...
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems to be double taping the rim. Once with the Dt-Swiss rim tape and then a layer of Gorilla Tape over the top?
What could the reasons be behind this? It looks like the DT tape is going from edge to edge so the Gorilla wouldn't be offering any additional adhesive. Is it a tape thickness thing? Never seen anyone double tape like that before.
One reason might be to prevent flats. I've only had 2 flats in the past year and a half, but both were from breaking a spoke, which then pushed back through the hole in the DTSwiss rim and punctured the rim tape. Regular rim tape (stans, mucoff, etc) isn't good against spoke impacts, but it doesn't leave residue when you peel it off like Gorilla tape. If combined, you get no residue, but also better resistance against spoke punctures.
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems...
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems to be double taping the rim. Once with the Dt-Swiss rim tape and then a layer of Gorilla Tape over the top?
What could the reasons be behind this? It looks like the DT tape is going from edge to edge so the Gorilla wouldn't be offering any additional adhesive. Is it a tape thickness thing? Never seen anyone double tape like that before.
I would think it would be to get the tire tighter on the wheel.
You put either of them on Mavens? I know the PB review of both on TRPs preferred Oaks as well. I was curious if they change...
You put either of them on Mavens? I know the PB review of both on TRPs preferred Oaks as well. I was curious if they change the Maven feel at all other than adding texture. I don't have any issue with the stock Maven levers, but the Oaks look pretty.
My Spire with a dual crown weighs more than my tr11 but obviously pedals much better. Might even weight more with a 38 instead of a z1. But I wouldn't mind if both bikes worked as well and weighed less!
Would be a cool feature if you can select different weights or just a rubberized guard if you want as light as possible. I could see a clean adjustable weight system being a feature on bikes in the future. Considering how long guys have been zip tie/duct taping weights their bikes for certain tracks I’m surprised no company has done this sooner.
I am unfamiliar with this, cam you explain? I thought the session was 157.
I’d give 3
Same reason while even for a 170 fork I wouldn’t pick a 38 or a zeb, I don’t need 300 extra grams in there giving me nothing more than a 36 would especially being not too heavy or a racer going fast af
From what I’ve been able to find out—and judging by Orbea’s Instagram post—it’s more than certain that there’s a new Rallon coming.
There will be one DH version with Fox Factory suspension and a 225x75 shock, while the rest will likely be enduro-oriented, probably using a 205x65mm shock. I'm not sure whether the lower shock mount will be interchangeable or not.
Like I said, QR through axles were not tested.
And like we discussed, for the stiffness we are looking for more axial clamping force does not necessarily mean more stiffness. Which means it's interesting Peak Torque missed this point as he's usually very good at engineering stuff (I do recommend watching his videos, though they are primarily road oriented).
FWIW I agree with all that, clamping force isn't the same as stiffness etc. Just figured I could be helpful by dropping the link because I knew exactly which video it was.
Yeah, honestly I could have linked it too considering I was mentioning it and giving details about it... So thank you for that actually!
Who makes this 20mm to 15mm adapter and is it Boxxer specific or do they make them for other forks?
Not the same but similar, this guy has options.
https://www.ebay.com/str/jjpellc?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l161211
Thanks. I've been running Joe's setup on a DH38 lowered to 180mm with a 15mm axle for a year. He had an issue with the first gen that he was absolutely amazing about owning up to when I thought it was me who made the mistake / caused the problem. I wanted to buy a replacement part that I thought I broke and he sent me a new redesigned part for this year and I'll be giving it a go when I finally get a chance to use the big bike. I like the setup he came up with but was curious what else was out there and the post above looked very clean and robust.
i'd agree that fewer companies are offering prebuilt wheels with 20mm hubs, and companies that are just getting into hubs (oneup) aren't offering 20mm. but there are still plenty of 20mm hub options available:
king, hope, hadley, DT, i9, onyx, novatec, shimano, sram, sun ringle, reverse, e13, project 321, i'm sure there's more.
this is a race vid, but lots of tech with troy, jackson and reece from poland world cup DH
Freaky Nuts also makes them. I'm considering put a Fox 40 on my A.170 for park use this season and ordered one of these for the conversion if I go that way. The materials seem to be of high quality. Compatible with Boxxer, Fox 40 and Rux38.
https://www.freakynuts.com
https://www.freakynuts.com/product-tag/front-axle/
They also have the Fox40 and Rux
Thanks everyone. Looks like Freaky Nuts doesn't do Ohlins so that doesn't work for me but still looks like a great solution.
An A.170 with a DC fork is very nice.
Most 15mm axles are hollow aluminum. The easiest solutions to making them stiffer is to not hollow them out, and/or to make them from steel or titanium. I've not done the calculations (@Primoz, didn't you do that?), but I imagine it could be as stiff as thin walled aluminum 20mm axles.
If you look at huck to flat videos it seems that the worst of the flex is at or around the crown. The most productive solution for single crown forks might be to return to 100mm OLD - a 10% narrower CSU would be 10% stiffer.
Something new on the way from EXT?
P.S I have a 190mm air spring for a fox 40 available for anyone looking to lower a set for their park / enduro setups 🙂 drop me a message if you’re interested
Yeah, it was included (had to even check it as I didn't remember).
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/The-Hub,2/Are-Upside-Down-forks-really-flexy,11099?page=0
15 and 20 mm axles with thicknesses of 1, 2, 2,5, 3 and 4 mm were compared. Thickness and diameter have an effect on torsion with USD forks, but still somewhat minor (roughly 10 % going from 10 to 20 mm with the same thickness).
While clamping width was tested I think the main difference was the stiffness of the 'dropout' as the whole assembly was bonded together. Ideally a system with realistic clearances would be simulated (and tested) to show real world differences as it will not be the same, even with pinchbolts clamping down on the axle.
FWIW, old 20 mm Maxles were interesting as they had expanding cones on both sides wedging themselves into the dropouts of the fork AND a step in the axle pressing the hub towards the NDS dropout (aligning the rotor every time) and possibly allowing some float in the dropout for the lower to run smoother. Come to think of it, do modern forks have more clearance in the bushings to offset this issue? @Dave_Camp any insights on this one?
Anyone know what brake lever Troy is using on his Mavens?
I forgot to mention that 100mm OLD would also be 10% stiffer for the axle and for the arch.
I remember various fork and component engineers shaking their heads in disbelief when the industry decided to settle on 15x110 rather than 15x100. Spoke triangulation has always been better for front wheels than rear, wheel manufacturers seem to chase front wheel compliance.
Looks like Freedom Coast. In another shot I saw the little flag etching near the pivot.
That's correct, those are freedom coast. I have those on one bike and a set of oak components on another. I prefer the oak components.
You put either of them on Mavens? I know the PB review of both on TRPs preferred Oaks as well. I was curious if they change the Maven feel at all other than adding texture. I don't have any issue with the stock Maven levers, but the Oaks look pretty.
How do the Oaks compare to the Freedoms in shape? Are the Oaks any closer to the bars, or basically the same? Have the Freedoms but would be interested in Oaks if they sit closer to the bars.
I wasn't too sure where to post this so feel free to delete or move accordingly if it's in the wrong thread. Troy Brosnan's mechanic seems to be double taping the rim. Once with the Dt-Swiss rim tape and then a layer of Gorilla Tape over the top?
What could the reasons be behind this? It looks like the DT tape is going from edge to edge so the Gorilla wouldn't be offering any additional adhesive. Is it a tape thickness thing? Never seen anyone double tape like that before.
One reason might be to prevent flats. I've only had 2 flats in the past year and a half, but both were from breaking a spoke, which then pushed back through the hole in the DTSwiss rim and punctured the rim tape. Regular rim tape (stans, mucoff, etc) isn't good against spoke impacts, but it doesn't leave residue when you peel it off like Gorilla tape. If combined, you get no residue, but also better resistance against spoke punctures.
I would think it would be to get the tire tighter on the wheel.
@AndehM & @FaahkEet answers to your question in the brake thread. https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/nerding-out-brakes-shall-we-not-ano…