I've had T4 and there were a bit noisy with the hope green pads. Using trickstuff or Galfer green and it was dead silent, no matter...
I've had T4 and there were a bit noisy with the hope green pads. Using trickstuff or Galfer green and it was dead silent, no matter the weather. Sinter green are also very very quiet pads.
Well, there are quite similar but :-Galfer are the noisier of the 3. It's subtle but there do make a bit of noise. Trickstuff are second...
Well, there are quite similar but :
-Galfer are the noisier of the 3. It's subtle but there do make a bit of noise. Trickstuff are second, the Sinter are the most silent I've tried. But we can say that the 3 are silent, it's just nutpicking here
-The galfer fade faster than Trickstuff. Can't say for the Sinter has I've don't run them for long enough to know
So the galfer are a bit behind, BUT there usually are cheaper. Can't really go wrong with any of these!
that's interesting, i guess it also depends on what brakes you used them?
on MT7 the Trickstuff power were impossible to fade for me, and pretty quiet especially at speed, the sinter green i didn't keep for long but i found a bit more bitey and a touch more noisy, Galfer i only tried the purple and found them horrible on maguras, black caliper every run, trickstuff kept everything WAY cleaner
Sinter Greens. Haven’t run TS’s but out of MTX, Red’s, Golds, both Hayes compounds and Galfer greens, the sinters are the best I’ve used. Run them...
Sinter Greens. Haven’t run TS’s but out of MTX, Red’s, Golds, both Hayes compounds and Galfer greens, the sinters are the best I’ve used. Run them on A4’s and Kaha’s with the new SE05 TRP rotors on one bike and Galfer Waves on another. Dead silent and more power regardless of how wet it is. Only have a few hundred miles so far but they seem to be wearing well. The stock Kaha pads made the most bizarre warbling noise when you got on the brakes hard. Not quite OG sram turkey call but similar. Drove me nuts.
Thanks, I will give these Sinter guys a shot. I was always intrigued after reading the Enduro Mag brake shootout and how powerful they are. Also the fact couple of you here are saying they are super silent so these should be the ticket to a peaceful descent.
@Pedal Bob There "performance organics" from likes of Trickstuff and Galfer are something special and can't be compared to the organic offerings from SRAM/Shimano. I have faded SRAM metallic pads on our long mountain descents while had zero issues with Trickstuff pads. No change in feel, power and last a long time.
Nobody seems to run with Shimano OEM metallic pads or atleast writing any comments to forums.
Are the all other brands so much better?
I started using Galfer green pads instead of Shimano because they were significantly cheaper, quieter and didn't feel like I gave up any performance. Galfer's aren't as cheap as they used to be, but still my go to (when using Shimano)
how do the v4 behave with 2mm rotors? reason i went with these other than look is thickness and stiffness, given the v4 caliper is meant...
how do the v4 behave with 2mm rotors? reason i went with these other than look is thickness and stiffness, given the v4 caliper is meant to use the 3.3mm rotors, and the floating are just 1.8 ( which i find ridiculous ) i went for something in between, feel is amazing but yeah the noise is the issue, the r1 were noisy on my mt7 but lacked bite badly, these are good rotors so i think it's pad compound or something else
I'm currently run v4 with sram centerline rotors (1.8 ) while awaiting shipment of thicker rotors, works just fine, U will need to file down sram brake mount adapter to fit caliper on 200mm rotor tho (code replacement on the bike)
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we...
For longer levers you could try BL-MT410.
At Sea Otter, Evan of Contra displayed his bike at my booth and we had a little Shigura convention, we had 3 variants. All used Magura 4-pot calipers. Ring used non-servowave XTR BL-M9100; Datum used Servowave XTR BL-M9120; Contra used long-levered non-Servowave BL-MT410.
We both said that our primary motivations were ergonomics/reliability. I like the reliabilty of the Magura calipers (I'd prefer if the pads retracted futher), and I like that the Shimano levers have the hose pointing in the correct direction and have good shifter integration (I've never gotten along with the ergonomics resulting from 2 bolt clamp shifter integration).
Regarding Servowave: in use the biggest things I notice is that the reach adjust on BL-M9100 is fiddly, and the carbon lever is a little bit thinner, so the BL-M9120 lever is a wee bit more comfortable. The Servowave lever does have a shorter stroke than the non-Servowave lever. Maybe I'll assemble a bike with M9100 on one side and M9120 on the other to get a better feel for the difference that Servowave makes**.
Regarding power: Perhaps more than enough braking power is enough, and much more than enough braking power is also enough. Just enough braking power is only enough until something unexpected happens so it's best to have a little bit more than 100% of what's needed.
Regarding numbers: Reducing performance to a single number, be it brake leverage, antisquat, weight, other, can distract from choosing a better, complete solution.
**UPDATE: I tested the servowave vs the non-servowave lever. I very strongly prefer the Servowave lever. Not because of the power difference, but because the freestroke is very long on the non-Servowave lever, and it's skinny lever blade is also less comfortable.
An update to my Shigura experiences:
I've decided I prefer the Servowave levers over the non-Servowave levers. Not because of the Servowave itself, but because they have the free-stroke adjuster.
Interestingly I don't actually use the freestroke adjuster, on M9120 it comes already adjusted in the close to the handlebar position, on M9100 unfortunately the resting position of the lever is always too far away (for my tastes).
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands. I even do this when changing pads to fresh ones. Never let me down.
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands...
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands. I even do this when changing pads to fresh ones. Never let me down.
Fkn yes! This is the sort of ingenuity that I come here for.
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands...
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands. I even do this when changing pads to fresh ones. Never let me down.
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands...
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands. I even do this when changing pads to fresh ones. Never let me down.
Your commitment to the cause is notable and commendable!
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time a brand new Phil Wood bottom bracket to go with it. He installs it and torques to spec (he was a highly competent home mech and used us when the WTF quotient got outta hand) and goes to tweak the chainline some and lo n behold, bottom bracket is frozen solid. Keep in mind, this is brand new, hasn't had the wheels installed yet much less been on a ride. We're contemplating the hows and decided to call Phil before proceeding with any plans from C on up the alphabet. Good thing we did. The cups and the frame were made from the same grade aluminum and had the same heat treat. This in turn meant the thread surfaces had near identical surface finish/topography, so when the BB was tightened to torque, those high and low surfaces interlocked to each other fast, creating a mechanical seizure between the mating parts. Keep in mind those surfaces would need to be seen under a microscope, you wouldn't see any difference, and the threads were greased properly. So, turns out ours and our customer's ignorance of this material property was at fault, and Phil has cups made from a different alloy strictly for this reason. Thankfully we didn't sell em the wares or that would've been an expensive error.
So what's that got to do with brakes? Simple. Different compounds will have a different 'grit' if you will, be it size, composition, or both. Doubt my claim? Take different grit sandpapers and rub them against each other, grit to grit. Note which ones slide easier and which ones lock up. The same grit sandpaper will damn near be impossible to rub against each other under pressure. The closer you get to the same grit, the more /easier the grit will interlock with each other, their topography matches. If you want the most consistent braking possible, replace with like or be prepared to take an orbital sander to a rotor if you don't want to replace it. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
not sure why i'm not a fan of sand paper and rotors, i feel they would become uneven and do more harm than good
That would require a helluvan aggressive abrasive and muscle. I'm not a fan of sandpaper as I don't know the composition of the adhesive and abrasive and don't want to potentially cause a contamination issue on the rotor surface resulting in poor braking characteristics. I think about how much I clean the metals I TIG when after cutting/grinding and apply the same reasoning to my rotors. Maybe I think too hard on these bits, def a possibility.
How about some good ole (glass) lapping plate and fine lapping compound? Still too much risk of having the compound getting embedded in the rotors?
That would be overkill and not necessary. The goal is to scuff up the rotor surface so the new pads can deposit themselves quickly, evenly and efficiently. You really don't need fine sanding compounds for this. Nuke it with some 99% ISO or brake clean for added peace of mind. From Hexon's TED talk, we can gather that we want to match the roughness of the pad and rotor for maximum interlocking. Lapping happens naturally when you ride the bike.
That would be overkill and not necessary. The goal is to scuff up the rotor surface so the new pads can deposit themselves quickly, evenly and...
That would be overkill and not necessary. The goal is to scuff up the rotor surface so the new pads can deposit themselves quickly, evenly and efficiently. You really don't need fine sanding compounds for this. Nuke it with some 99% ISO or brake clean for added peace of mind. From Hexon's TED talk, we can gather that we want to match the roughness of the pad and rotor for maximum interlocking. Lapping happens naturally when you ride the bike.
Agree that people misinterpret "sanding the rotors" as it's commonly practiced (or at least as I do it). I think of it like taking a brillo pad to a pot - very aggressive cleaning. I'm not trying to really "sand" the rotor. Just take off the most microscopic top layer of pad material and scuff it up enough to remate with new pads.
I never prep my rotors. I just run cheap 2,50 chinese resin pads and they all bite the same. To bed them in more quickly just use a few drops of water.
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time...
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time a brand new Phil Wood bottom bracket to go with it. He installs it and torques to spec (he was a highly competent home mech and used us when the WTF quotient got outta hand) and goes to tweak the chainline some and lo n behold, bottom bracket is frozen solid. Keep in mind, this is brand new, hasn't had the wheels installed yet much less been on a ride. We're contemplating the hows and decided to call Phil before proceeding with any plans from C on up the alphabet. Good thing we did. The cups and the frame were made from the same grade aluminum and had the same heat treat. This in turn meant the thread surfaces had near identical surface finish/topography, so when the BB was tightened to torque, those high and low surfaces interlocked to each other fast, creating a mechanical seizure between the mating parts. Keep in mind those surfaces would need to be seen under a microscope, you wouldn't see any difference, and the threads were greased properly. So, turns out ours and our customer's ignorance of this material property was at fault, and Phil has cups made from a different alloy strictly for this reason. Thankfully we didn't sell em the wares or that would've been an expensive error.
So what's that got to do with brakes? Simple. Different compounds will have a different 'grit' if you will, be it size, composition, or both. Doubt my claim? Take different grit sandpapers and rub them against each other, grit to grit. Note which ones slide easier and which ones lock up. The same grit sandpaper will damn near be impossible to rub against each other under pressure. The closer you get to the same grit, the more /easier the grit will interlock with each other, their topography matches. If you want the most consistent braking possible, replace with like or be prepared to take an orbital sander to a rotor if you don't want to replace it. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
What you're describing is galling. A situation where a like-for-like metal will basically weld itself in the threads. Some metals are more susceptible to this than others. You can see the effect here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54spcBn-Sk
The point is, galling is not relevant to brakes. Unless you're trying to use brake pads that are a billet of the same stainless steel that's used for the rotors. Then maybe.
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time...
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time a brand new Phil Wood bottom bracket to go with it. He installs it and torques to spec (he was a highly competent home mech and used us when the WTF quotient got outta hand) and goes to tweak the chainline some and lo n behold, bottom bracket is frozen solid. Keep in mind, this is brand new, hasn't had the wheels installed yet much less been on a ride. We're contemplating the hows and decided to call Phil before proceeding with any plans from C on up the alphabet. Good thing we did. The cups and the frame were made from the same grade aluminum and had the same heat treat. This in turn meant the thread surfaces had near identical surface finish/topography, so when the BB was tightened to torque, those high and low surfaces interlocked to each other fast, creating a mechanical seizure between the mating parts. Keep in mind those surfaces would need to be seen under a microscope, you wouldn't see any difference, and the threads were greased properly. So, turns out ours and our customer's ignorance of this material property was at fault, and Phil has cups made from a different alloy strictly for this reason. Thankfully we didn't sell em the wares or that would've been an expensive error.
So what's that got to do with brakes? Simple. Different compounds will have a different 'grit' if you will, be it size, composition, or both. Doubt my claim? Take different grit sandpapers and rub them against each other, grit to grit. Note which ones slide easier and which ones lock up. The same grit sandpaper will damn near be impossible to rub against each other under pressure. The closer you get to the same grit, the more /easier the grit will interlock with each other, their topography matches. If you want the most consistent braking possible, replace with like or be prepared to take an orbital sander to a rotor if you don't want to replace it. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
What you're describing is galling. A situation where a like-for-like metal will basically weld itself in the threads. Some metals are more susceptible to this than...
What you're describing is galling. A situation where a like-for-like metal will basically weld itself in the threads. Some metals are more susceptible to this than others. You can see the effect here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54spcBn-Sk
The point is, galling is not relevant to brakes. Unless you're trying to use brake pads that are a billet of the same stainless steel that's used for the rotors. Then maybe.
Totally aware, but using it as an example to show why I switch rotors if I switch pad compounds. The like size grit/ grain structure analogy is legit when it comes to the discussion at hand, providing context to what happens between a bedded in rotor and pad set and why simply swapping pad compounds may not provide the desired results. The pad material grabbing at each other as contact made is not significantly dissimilar to what occurs during galling.
Side, that AvE cat is one of our own. Highly entertaining fellow that one.
Hopefully you've all been being careful when performing maintenance on your brakes, but a couple new studies just dropped reinforcing that inhaling brake dust is bad, mmmkay. No types of dust were good for you, but interestingly one study showed that metallics were less damaging than organics when exposing lung tissue to dust. Either way, I'd encourage everyone to clean their stuff using a wet method to avoid dust generation, and ideally catch the majority of the liquid in a garbage can for proper disposal, because if you just let it dry on the floor of your workshop it can get kicked back up if you use the air compressor, sweep, etc...
"The scientists examined the effects on lung health of particulate matter from four different types of brake pad with differing chemical compositions; low metallic, semi-metallic, non-asbestos organic and hybrid-ceramic.
Results showed that of the four types of brake pads, non-asbestos organic pads were the most potent at inducing inflammation and other markers of toxicity, and were found to be more toxic to human lung cells than diesel exhaust particles. Ceramic pads were the second most toxic."
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment-
I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those maven cups. I've always been a fan of the Shimano overnight cup bleed rubber band thing and I thought these cups would help me do the same things to my mavens.
Needless to say, it did not work, in fact it made my mavens feel terrible. So I've never used them again and suck with syringes. I think having a bit of positive pressure in the system and "overfilling" it a bit by pushing a little bit of oil from the caliper up with the bleed port on the lever closed makes them feel the best.
Though I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I've never relied on the rubber band to the bar method (now or 20 years ago) - it might help if small air bubbles have been mixed in and trapped in tight corners of the brake but generally I try to flush degassed fluid through the whole system and that carries a lot of the air with it.
Theres 2 things which seem obvious but manufacturer bleed methods seem to forget -
Gravity - air will always travel upwards so if there is a local high point then a vacuum won't be able to pull it unless the path to the bleed port is roughly vertical. Some brakes have more spots to trap air than others so if you're having trouble you might need to experiment with orientation of the whole system*
The reason a vacuum helps is because it changes the ratio of bouyancy vs friction (archimedes principle). Small bubbles have a relatively high surface area compared to their mass so the friction on the bubble prevents them from floating. Pulling a vacuum causes the bubbles to expand, greatly reducing their density and if there are multiple bubbles that can join together they will now be much more likely to travel up to the lever.
Tapping the brake gently also breaks the friction between the hose which helps it get moving, and once moving will be more likely to continue travelling upwards. Too much agitation will break up the bubbles and create a foam which is harder to move though. Personally I like to fill a sysringe and pull a vacuum to degas it before gently pushing it in to the brake from the bottom. That makes for far less air to remove later on. Holding pressure on the bubbles shrinks them and might help it squeeze through small gaps but might not be a lot of help getting it all out.
*I really want a workstand that somehow clamps in the middle of the bike and makes it easy to spin 360 degrees for this exact thing. EVT had an offset clamp on their stand for the reason too, but it held the seatpost which I would like to be able to remove in the stand as well
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment- I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those...
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment-
I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those maven cups. I've always been a fan of the Shimano overnight cup bleed rubber band thing and I thought these cups would help me do the same things to my mavens.
Needless to say, it did not work, in fact it made my mavens feel terrible. So I've never used them again and suck with syringes. I think having a bit of positive pressure in the system and "overfilling" it a bit by pushing a little bit of oil from the caliper up with the bleed port on the lever closed makes them feel the best.
Though I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I've never relied on the rubber band to the bar method (now or 20 years ago) - it might help if small air bubbles have been mixed in and trapped in tight corners of the brake but generally I try to flush degassed fluid through the whole system and that carries a lot of the air with it.
Theres 2 things which seem obvious but manufacturer bleed methods seem to forget -
Gravity - air will always travel upwards so if there is a local high point then a vacuum won't be able to pull it unless the path to the bleed port is roughly vertical. Some brakes have more spots to trap air than others so if you're having trouble you might need to experiment with orientation of the whole system*
The reason a vacuum helps is because it changes the ratio of bouyancy vs friction (archimedes principle). Small bubbles have a relatively high surface area compared to their mass so the friction on the bubble prevents them from floating. Pulling a vacuum causes the bubbles to expand, greatly reducing their density and if there are multiple bubbles that can join together they will now be much more likely to travel up to the lever.
Tapping the brake gently also breaks the friction between the hose which helps it get moving, and once moving will be more likely to continue travelling upwards. Too much agitation will break up the bubbles and create a foam which is harder to move though. Personally I like to fill a sysringe and pull a vacuum to degas it before gently pushing it in to the brake from the bottom. That makes for far less air to remove later on. Holding pressure on the bubbles shrinks them and might help it squeeze through small gaps but might not be a lot of help getting it all out.
*I really want a workstand that somehow clamps in the middle of the bike and makes it easy to spin 360 degrees for this exact thing. EVT had an offset clamp on their stand for the reason too, but it held the seatpost which I would like to be able to remove in the stand as well
I'm with you 100%.
It seems to me the most likely place air is going to get trapped is in the caliper or master cylinder, not the line. First thing I do is pull a vacuum on each with the opposite end closed to get any bubbles out so I'm not pushing them through the system. I think it should be stated that the vacuum is slight and consistent for around 30 seconds while tapping and flicking the lever to give the bubbles time to move. Don't crank on it, you're not plunging a turd out of a clogged toilet!
I have had a bleed block move when pulling a vacuum. I think at that point it's too much negative pressure but I always make sure I give the system a good pressurizing and ensure the pistons are back out with the bleed block secure.
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment- I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those...
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment-
I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those maven cups. I've always been a fan of the Shimano overnight cup bleed rubber band thing and I thought these cups would help me do the same things to my mavens.
Needless to say, it did not work, in fact it made my mavens feel terrible. So I've never used them again and suck with syringes. I think having a bit of positive pressure in the system and "overfilling" it a bit by pushing a little bit of oil from the caliper up with the bleed port on the lever closed makes them feel the best.
Though I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I've never relied on the rubber band to the bar method (now or 20 years ago) - it might help if small air bubbles have been mixed in and trapped in tight corners of the brake but generally I try to flush degassed fluid through the whole system and that carries a lot of the air with it.
Theres 2 things which seem obvious but manufacturer bleed methods seem to forget -
Gravity - air will always travel upwards so if there is a local high point then a vacuum won't be able to pull it unless the path to the bleed port is roughly vertical. Some brakes have more spots to trap air than others so if you're having trouble you might need to experiment with orientation of the whole system*
The reason a vacuum helps is because it changes the ratio of bouyancy vs friction (archimedes principle). Small bubbles have a relatively high surface area compared to their mass so the friction on the bubble prevents them from floating. Pulling a vacuum causes the bubbles to expand, greatly reducing their density and if there are multiple bubbles that can join together they will now be much more likely to travel up to the lever.
Tapping the brake gently also breaks the friction between the hose which helps it get moving, and once moving will be more likely to continue travelling upwards. Too much agitation will break up the bubbles and create a foam which is harder to move though. Personally I like to fill a sysringe and pull a vacuum to degas it before gently pushing it in to the brake from the bottom. That makes for far less air to remove later on. Holding pressure on the bubbles shrinks them and might help it squeeze through small gaps but might not be a lot of help getting it all out.
*I really want a workstand that somehow clamps in the middle of the bike and makes it easy to spin 360 degrees for this exact thing. EVT had an offset clamp on their stand for the reason too, but it held the seatpost which I would like to be able to remove in the stand as well
I'm with you 100%. It seems to me the most likely place air is going to get trapped is in the caliper or master cylinder, not the line. First...
I'm with you 100%.
It seems to me the most likely place air is going to get trapped is in the caliper or master cylinder, not the line. First thing I do is pull a vacuum on each with the opposite end closed to get any bubbles out so I'm not pushing them through the system. I think it should be stated that the vacuum is slight and consistent for around 30 seconds while tapping and flicking the lever to give the bubbles time to move. Don't crank on it, you're not plunging a turd out of a clogged toilet!
I have had a bleed block move when pulling a vacuum. I think at that point it's too much negative pressure but I always make sure I give the system a good pressurizing and ensure the pistons are back out with the bleed block secure.
Yup I do it a very similar way - the the inital bleed nipple opening at the caliper involves drawing the air out, as well as any crud that might be stuck there. I'll often hold the lever closed so its not sucking the bladder back or if you have already installed a cup/top syringe. But leaving the top plug in place works too
And yeah i've had bleed blocks fall out too - I'll always hold it with a pin or rubber band now!
@Digit Bikes mentioned that pulling a vacuum might make the bubble too big for them to be able to move through the hose. I'd say pulling a vacuum with the other syringe opened (there's enough restriction in the line or complete system that there still will be a vacuum) will enable the oil to flow under a vacuum, so pulled through the system, thus the bubbles will enlarge and flow together with the oil.
That's why I was saying here about using a vacuum machine connected to both ends of the brake system with a Y plumbing system and pulling a vacuum on a reservoir then maybe even having a pump or something flowing the oil from the caliper to the lever (and back towards the caliper through the external plumbing) to promote this flow of bubbles. The only reason for this is to a) be able to tune the level of vacuum (0,9 to 0,8 bar absolute pressure, so 0,1 to 0,2 bar vacuum might be enough and prevent ingress of air past the master seals) vs. how you're able to control it with a syringe and to be able to plug the system and have the machine run instead of standing there and handle the two syringes back and forth, pulling vacuum, holding it there, holding your hands up above your head, etc. etc.
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment- I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those...
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment-
I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those maven cups. I've always been a fan of the Shimano overnight cup bleed rubber band thing and I thought these cups would help me do the same things to my mavens.
Needless to say, it did not work, in fact it made my mavens feel terrible. So I've never used them again and suck with syringes. I think having a bit of positive pressure in the system and "overfilling" it a bit by pushing a little bit of oil from the caliper up with the bleed port on the lever closed makes them feel the best.
Though I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I've never relied on the rubber band to the bar method (now or 20 years ago) - it might help if small air bubbles have been mixed in and trapped in tight corners of the brake but generally I try to flush degassed fluid through the whole system and that carries a lot of the air with it.
Theres 2 things which seem obvious but manufacturer bleed methods seem to forget -
Gravity - air will always travel upwards so if there is a local high point then a vacuum won't be able to pull it unless the path to the bleed port is roughly vertical. Some brakes have more spots to trap air than others so if you're having trouble you might need to experiment with orientation of the whole system*
The reason a vacuum helps is because it changes the ratio of bouyancy vs friction (archimedes principle). Small bubbles have a relatively high surface area compared to their mass so the friction on the bubble prevents them from floating. Pulling a vacuum causes the bubbles to expand, greatly reducing their density and if there are multiple bubbles that can join together they will now be much more likely to travel up to the lever.
Tapping the brake gently also breaks the friction between the hose which helps it get moving, and once moving will be more likely to continue travelling upwards. Too much agitation will break up the bubbles and create a foam which is harder to move though. Personally I like to fill a sysringe and pull a vacuum to degas it before gently pushing it in to the brake from the bottom. That makes for far less air to remove later on. Holding pressure on the bubbles shrinks them and might help it squeeze through small gaps but might not be a lot of help getting it all out.
*I really want a workstand that somehow clamps in the middle of the bike and makes it easy to spin 360 degrees for this exact thing. EVT had an offset clamp on their stand for the reason too, but it held the seatpost which I would like to be able to remove in the stand as well
Re a work stand clamping in the middle of the bike without using the seat post, could you use the Silca ‘Hirobel Frame Clamp’ or something similar? Seems designed for aero road bikes but a very brief web search shows people using it on mtbs.
@Digit Bikes mentioned that pulling a vacuum might make the bubble too big for them to be able to move through the hose. I'd say pulling...
@Digit Bikes mentioned that pulling a vacuum might make the bubble too big for them to be able to move through the hose. I'd say pulling a vacuum with the other syringe opened (there's enough restriction in the line or complete system that there still will be a vacuum) will enable the oil to flow under a vacuum, so pulled through the system, thus the bubbles will enlarge and flow together with the oil.
That's why I was saying here about using a vacuum machine connected to both ends of the brake system with a Y plumbing system and pulling a vacuum on a reservoir then maybe even having a pump or something flowing the oil from the caliper to the lever (and back towards the caliper through the external plumbing) to promote this flow of bubbles. The only reason for this is to a) be able to tune the level of vacuum (0,9 to 0,8 bar absolute pressure, so 0,1 to 0,2 bar vacuum might be enough and prevent ingress of air past the master seals) vs. how you're able to control it with a syringe and to be able to plug the system and have the machine run instead of standing there and handle the two syringes back and forth, pulling vacuum, holding it there, holding your hands up above your head, etc. etc.
The vacuum machine makes me think of the Unior rotor/pad bedding machine. It's a $2,000 piece of equipment to replace pedaling up a hill a few times. But sometimes it's raining, sometimes it's snowing, it takes employees time to go do the pedaling (assuming the shop actually does a bed-in procedure), maybe the shop is located where it's hard to do the bedding procedure.
The vacuum bleeding machine seems similar, although standing there with a syringe in each hand seems like a lot less trouble than bedding in brakes.
Saying all that to ask the industry folks on here if they are seeing or hearing about the Unior machine getting purchased by larger shops. I would think that would be a useful data point on the commercial viability of a vacuum bleeding machine for brakes.
I suppose shops could also use the vacuum machine to get more business be claiming that their brake bleed with the machine is superior to a home bleed with syringes, but I'm not sure I'd buy that argument.
that's interesting, i guess it also depends on what brakes you used them?
on MT7 the Trickstuff power were impossible to fade for me, and pretty quiet especially at speed, the sinter green i didn't keep for long but i found a bit more bitey and a touch more noisy, Galfer i only tried the purple and found them horrible on maguras, black caliper every run, trickstuff kept everything WAY cleaner
It was on T4V4 / Intend Trinity, same feeling for me on both brakes.
Thanks, I will give these Sinter guys a shot. I was always intrigued after reading the Enduro Mag brake shootout and how powerful they are. Also the fact couple of you here are saying they are super silent so these should be the ticket to a peaceful descent.
@Pedal Bob There "performance organics" from likes of Trickstuff and Galfer are something special and can't be compared to the organic offerings from SRAM/Shimano. I have faded SRAM metallic pads on our long mountain descents while had zero issues with Trickstuff pads. No change in feel, power and last a long time.
Nobody seems to run with Shimano OEM metallic pads or atleast writing any comments to forums.
Are the all other brands so much better?
I started using Galfer green pads instead of Shimano because they were significantly cheaper, quieter and didn't feel like I gave up any performance. Galfer's aren't as cheap as they used to be, but still my go to (when using Shimano)
I'm currently run v4 with sram centerline rotors (1.8 ) while awaiting shipment of thicker rotors, works just fine, U will need to file down sram brake mount adapter to fit caliper on 200mm rotor tho (code replacement on the bike)
An update to my Shigura experiences:
I've decided I prefer the Servowave levers over the non-Servowave levers. Not because of the Servowave itself, but because they have the free-stroke adjuster.
Interestingly I don't actually use the freestroke adjuster, on M9120 it comes already adjusted in the close to the handlebar position, on M9100 unfortunately the resting position of the lever is always too far away (for my tastes).
Orbital sander + 120 grit pad 20-30 seconds on each side x2 using medium pressure. This is how I prep my rotors when changing pad compounds/brands. I even do this when changing pads to fresh ones. Never let me down.
Fkn yes! This is the sort of ingenuity that I come here for.
looks like i'm buying a sander....
not sure why i'm not a fan of sand paper and rotors, i feel they would become uneven and do more harm than good
Well I have access to a high accuracy surface grinder at work, I wonder how I can get it to hold brake rotors.
Your commitment to the cause is notable and commendable!
Magnetic base.
Story time. Ages ago, a good customer at the shop I worked at picked up some fancy aluminum Italian road frame and at the same time a brand new Phil Wood bottom bracket to go with it. He installs it and torques to spec (he was a highly competent home mech and used us when the WTF quotient got outta hand) and goes to tweak the chainline some and lo n behold, bottom bracket is frozen solid. Keep in mind, this is brand new, hasn't had the wheels installed yet much less been on a ride. We're contemplating the hows and decided to call Phil before proceeding with any plans from C on up the alphabet. Good thing we did. The cups and the frame were made from the same grade aluminum and had the same heat treat. This in turn meant the thread surfaces had near identical surface finish/topography, so when the BB was tightened to torque, those high and low surfaces interlocked to each other fast, creating a mechanical seizure between the mating parts. Keep in mind those surfaces would need to be seen under a microscope, you wouldn't see any difference, and the threads were greased properly. So, turns out ours and our customer's ignorance of this material property was at fault, and Phil has cups made from a different alloy strictly for this reason. Thankfully we didn't sell em the wares or that would've been an expensive error.
So what's that got to do with brakes? Simple. Different compounds will have a different 'grit' if you will, be it size, composition, or both. Doubt my claim? Take different grit sandpapers and rub them against each other, grit to grit. Note which ones slide easier and which ones lock up. The same grit sandpaper will damn near be impossible to rub against each other under pressure. The closer you get to the same grit, the more /easier the grit will interlock with each other, their topography matches. If you want the most consistent braking possible, replace with like or be prepared to take an orbital sander to a rotor if you don't want to replace it. Thank you for attending my Ted Talk.
That would require a helluvan aggressive abrasive and muscle. I'm not a fan of sandpaper as I don't know the composition of the adhesive and abrasive and don't want to potentially cause a contamination issue on the rotor surface resulting in poor braking characteristics. I think about how much I clean the metals I TIG when after cutting/grinding and apply the same reasoning to my rotors. Maybe I think too hard on these bits, def a possibility.
How about some good ole (glass) lapping plate and fine lapping compound? Still too much risk of having the compound getting embedded in the rotors?
Rotors are hardened steel -- you're not removing a meaningful amount of material.
That would be overkill and not necessary. The goal is to scuff up the rotor surface so the new pads can deposit themselves quickly, evenly and efficiently. You really don't need fine sanding compounds for this. Nuke it with some 99% ISO or brake clean for added peace of mind. From Hexon's TED talk, we can gather that we want to match the roughness of the pad and rotor for maximum interlocking. Lapping happens naturally when you ride the bike.
Agree that people misinterpret "sanding the rotors" as it's commonly practiced (or at least as I do it). I think of it like taking a brillo pad to a pot - very aggressive cleaning. I'm not trying to really "sand" the rotor. Just take off the most microscopic top layer of pad material and scuff it up enough to remate with new pads.
I never prep my rotors. I just run cheap 2,50 chinese resin pads and they all bite the same. To bed them in more quickly just use a few drops of water.
What you're describing is galling. A situation where a like-for-like metal will basically weld itself in the threads. Some metals are more susceptible to this than others. You can see the effect here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R54spcBn-Sk
Or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHAhfX7iRjs
Or here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlDUqf-1XsM
The point is, galling is not relevant to brakes. Unless you're trying to use brake pads that are a billet of the same stainless steel that's used for the rotors. Then maybe.
Totally aware, but using it as an example to show why I switch rotors if I switch pad compounds. The like size grit/ grain structure analogy is legit when it comes to the discussion at hand, providing context to what happens between a bedded in rotor and pad set and why simply swapping pad compounds may not provide the desired results. The pad material grabbing at each other as contact made is not significantly dissimilar to what occurs during galling.
Side, that AvE cat is one of our own. Highly entertaining fellow that one.
Hopefully you've all been being careful when performing maintenance on your brakes, but a couple new studies just dropped reinforcing that inhaling brake dust is bad, mmmkay. No types of dust were good for you, but interestingly one study showed that metallics were less damaging than organics when exposing lung tissue to dust. Either way, I'd encourage everyone to clean their stuff using a wet method to avoid dust generation, and ideally catch the majority of the liquid in a garbage can for proper disposal, because if you just let it dry on the floor of your workshop it can get kicked back up if you use the air compressor, sweep, etc...
From: https://particleandfibretoxicology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s…
"The scientists examined the effects on lung health of particulate matter from four different types of brake pad with differing chemical compositions; low metallic, semi-metallic, non-asbestos organic and hybrid-ceramic.
Results showed that of the four types of brake pads, non-asbestos organic pads were the most potent at inducing inflammation and other markers of toxicity, and were found to be more toxic to human lung cells than diesel exhaust particles. Ceramic pads were the second most toxic."
And from: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0300483X25000113
•Exposure to brake pad particles induced lung inflammation and a tendency towards fibrosis.
•Notable alterations in pulmonary function parameters, indicating compromised respiratory health.
•Significant changes in plasma metabolites, implicating KEGG pathways of purine metabolism and caffeine metabolism.
•Alterations in intestinal microbiota, with implications for the gut-lung axis.
Ok I'll try bring this convo over here and reply to this comment-
I really hate to derail this conversation but I must talk about those maven cups. I've always been a fan of the Shimano overnight cup bleed rubber band thing and I thought these cups would help me do the same things to my mavens.
Needless to say, it did not work, in fact it made my mavens feel terrible. So I've never used them again and suck with syringes. I think having a bit of positive pressure in the system and "overfilling" it a bit by pushing a little bit of oil from the caliper up with the bleed port on the lever closed makes them feel the best.
Though I'd be really interested in your thoughts.
I've never relied on the rubber band to the bar method (now or 20 years ago) - it might help if small air bubbles have been mixed in and trapped in tight corners of the brake but generally I try to flush degassed fluid through the whole system and that carries a lot of the air with it.
Theres 2 things which seem obvious but manufacturer bleed methods seem to forget -
Gravity - air will always travel upwards so if there is a local high point then a vacuum won't be able to pull it unless the path to the bleed port is roughly vertical. Some brakes have more spots to trap air than others so if you're having trouble you might need to experiment with orientation of the whole system*
The reason a vacuum helps is because it changes the ratio of bouyancy vs friction (archimedes principle). Small bubbles have a relatively high surface area compared to their mass so the friction on the bubble prevents them from floating. Pulling a vacuum causes the bubbles to expand, greatly reducing their density and if there are multiple bubbles that can join together they will now be much more likely to travel up to the lever.
Tapping the brake gently also breaks the friction between the hose which helps it get moving, and once moving will be more likely to continue travelling upwards. Too much agitation will break up the bubbles and create a foam which is harder to move though. Personally I like to fill a sysringe and pull a vacuum to degas it before gently pushing it in to the brake from the bottom. That makes for far less air to remove later on. Holding pressure on the bubbles shrinks them and might help it squeeze through small gaps but might not be a lot of help getting it all out.
*I really want a workstand that somehow clamps in the middle of the bike and makes it easy to spin 360 degrees for this exact thing. EVT had an offset clamp on their stand for the reason too, but it held the seatpost which I would like to be able to remove in the stand as well
Yup I do it a very similar way - the the inital bleed nipple opening at the caliper involves drawing the air out, as well as any crud that might be stuck there. I'll often hold the lever closed so its not sucking the bladder back or if you have already installed a cup/top syringe. But leaving the top plug in place works too
And yeah i've had bleed blocks fall out too - I'll always hold it with a pin or rubber band now!
@Digit Bikes mentioned that pulling a vacuum might make the bubble too big for them to be able to move through the hose. I'd say pulling a vacuum with the other syringe opened (there's enough restriction in the line or complete system that there still will be a vacuum) will enable the oil to flow under a vacuum, so pulled through the system, thus the bubbles will enlarge and flow together with the oil.
That's why I was saying here about using a vacuum machine connected to both ends of the brake system with a Y plumbing system and pulling a vacuum on a reservoir then maybe even having a pump or something flowing the oil from the caliper to the lever (and back towards the caliper through the external plumbing) to promote this flow of bubbles. The only reason for this is to a) be able to tune the level of vacuum (0,9 to 0,8 bar absolute pressure, so 0,1 to 0,2 bar vacuum might be enough and prevent ingress of air past the master seals) vs. how you're able to control it with a syringe and to be able to plug the system and have the machine run instead of standing there and handle the two syringes back and forth, pulling vacuum, holding it there, holding your hands up above your head, etc. etc.
Re a work stand clamping in the middle of the bike without using the seat post, could you use the Silca ‘Hirobel Frame Clamp’ or something similar? Seems designed for aero road bikes but a very brief web search shows people using it on mtbs.
The vacuum machine makes me think of the Unior rotor/pad bedding machine. It's a $2,000 piece of equipment to replace pedaling up a hill a few times. But sometimes it's raining, sometimes it's snowing, it takes employees time to go do the pedaling (assuming the shop actually does a bed-in procedure), maybe the shop is located where it's hard to do the bedding procedure.
The vacuum bleeding machine seems similar, although standing there with a syringe in each hand seems like a lot less trouble than bedding in brakes.
Saying all that to ask the industry folks on here if they are seeing or hearing about the Unior machine getting purchased by larger shops. I would think that would be a useful data point on the commercial viability of a vacuum bleeding machine for brakes.
I suppose shops could also use the vacuum machine to get more business be claiming that their brake bleed with the machine is superior to a home bleed with syringes, but I'm not sure I'd buy that argument.
Post a reply to: Nerding out on Brakes shall we? Not another tech deraliment