@whitesq I know you mentioned that the creating the traditional fork would not be worth the time. So you went the USD route. Were the wilder things considered like linkage fork or even a take on the lefty?
Yeah but the ohlins market is much smaller and number of units sold way lower. Not really a surprise there
Is it smaller? Their powersports business is significant I believe. They make components for off road moto, on road moto, 4 wheel racing and other powersports I believe. Maybe its more so that Rad Power is overevaluated as far as actual value.
@whitesq I know you mentioned that the creating the traditional fork would not be worth the time. So you went the USD route. Were the wilder...
@whitesq I know you mentioned that the creating the traditional fork would not be worth the time. So you went the USD route. Were the wilder things considered like linkage fork or even a take on the lefty?
"Opportunity for increased bushing overlap via a dynamic bushing is the main upside I see inverted offering.Only valid for a dual crown fork. With a single...
"Opportunity for increased bushing overlap via a dynamic bushing is the main upside I see inverted offering.
Only valid for a dual crown fork. With a single crown, you have the same space in either an upside down or a right side up fork. With a dual crown, the surface that could be used to slide is clamped in the crowns with a right side up fork. With a USD dual crown fork, the 'dynamic' bushing can protrude past the lower crown so you get a genuine advantage of this layout.
The BIG negative is that besides having to deal with the surface finish of the outer surface of the stanchion (normal for all forks out there, besides the inner surface if you are using the stanchion as the air spring cylinder), you have to deal with the surface finish of the inside of the outer tube as well. You double the parts that need to be finished to a tight tolerance, have a high smoothness of the surface AND then be surface treated for hardness.
(I'd be happy to be proven wrong on these assumptions by someone who actually had a hand at designing a fork, I did no such thing ever after all, this is all just assuming how it's done.)
@whitesq regarding sourcing a casting in the US, is the industry that far gone or are there specifics when it comes to fork castings? Geometry specific, material specific, etc.? We can get proto cast parts from basically a garage here in Slovenia and there are a few suppliers of cast aluminium parts within a 20 kilometer radius around here. Not sure about the quality, that is true, but there are options at least. Plus there's always CNC milling
I am in the engineering department at Push, and we're all big fans of the Vital community! - Matt
I guess I should prefaced that manufacturing comment, before I get the "my buddy owns a casting shop and ..." 😂 So for starters there aren't many magnesium casting suppliers in the US (probably because of safety issues 🔥) but funny enough there is one just down the street from us. The problem with most US manufacturers is size, difficulty, volume, and capacity all have to align before they are interested in any new work. In my experience this is fundamentally different thinking than eastern suppliers that want your business first and foremost and will work through the issues later. Credit to the Asian suppliers making these castings, they are very difficult, but they've also had 30-40 years to refine the process and gradually scale up from 28mm forks to 40mm forks. I know the scale of these castings is outside the capability of our local supplier and I suspect the difficultly and volume would be outside the interest of others in the US. So all that to say, we're not against using a casting or other materials, but we have a building full of machines cutting aluminum (sometimes 24/7), so designing to your strengths makes a lot of sense.
Truly all options were on the table conventional, inverted, & linkage. Each has strengths and weaknesses, for us starting with a blank sheet design it was all about picking the layout we felt we could best minimize the weakness and maximize the strengths.
I'll also add, there's so much dogma in the bike industry, you can't do X because it has such bad Y...etc. We're not totally impervious to this thinking, but with this project we made it a point to actually test these assertions and sort fact from fiction. An example, from the start I felt we had to do a 20mm axle because everyone says so, it was Darren that commented how much it sucks to get a new fork and then realize your wheel doesn't work with it. So we tested and found the diameter has much less influence compared to the interface between the hub/lug/axle.
I'll also add, there's so much dogma in the bike industry, you can't do X because it has such bad Y...etc. We're not totally impervious to...
I'll also add, there's so much dogma in the bike industry, you can't do X because it has such bad Y...etc. We're not totally impervious to this thinking, but with this project we made it a point to actually test these assertions and sort fact from fiction. An example, from the start I felt we had to do a 20mm axle because everyone says so, it was Darren that commented how much it sucks to get a new fork and then realize your wheel doesn't work with it. So we tested and found the diameter has much less influence compared to the interface between the hub/lug/axle.
I super appreciate the number of product engineers we have in this forum. There's also PMs from brands and sales guys like me. Great to interact with super knowledgeable consumers and riders.
BTW, I was looking at the fork the other day. As technical of a product the fork is, I was a little surprised not to see some common details listed on the website. I couldn't for the life of me verify it was 15mm axle, didn't see A2C lengths or fork offset. Might not hurt to add some specs to the page.
Dogma persists where there are barriers to freely exchanged information, right? When an insider working on the design and manufacturing side says ‘test’ it seems to me to mean something different from when anyone working the marketing and media side says it. And before you leap to the idea that i’m dragging the bike testers and youtubers for displaying a sense of conviction far outstripping the level of rigor in their process, it’s the highbrow side that chooses to keep the data secret, keep the methodologies vague, ensuring that no one has the tools to do a comparison across products. Unless they were to found something like the forthcoming “Outside (pinkbike) Labs” —and you know they’ll bring the skills and the integrity!!11! Every brand communicates from the center of their own bubble.
Let me put it concretely: feeling burned that people perform the dumbass handlebar twist test? Scolding doesn’t change much behavior. You have to offer something better to replace it. You need a lot of different people’s buy in. Strange but true: sram also has people working the streets saying trust us we’re engineers. Yeah so best of luck!
Big new today from Öhlins, as the Swedish suspension specialist is acquired by Brembo (from Tenneco). We reached out to Öhlins for comments regarding the future...
Big new today from Öhlins, as the Swedish suspension specialist is acquired by Brembo (from Tenneco). We reached out to Öhlins for comments regarding the future of MTB products under the new ownership, although it's obviously early days yet. They have informed us that for the time being, they are continuing to manufacture and support their products as per usual, with stable demand observed from their customer base. They also have new products in the pipeline that will be unveiled "over the coming months", so that all sounds like they will continue to build their presence on the MTB side of things going forward.
[editor's note: Tenneco acquired Öhlins for $160M in 2018, so the brand must have been doing well under their ownership as they have now been able to sell it for $400M.]
BREMBO ACQUIRES ÖHLINS, LEADING MANUFACTURER OF PREMIUM SUSPENSION TECHNOLOGY
Bergamo (Italy), October 11th 2024 – Brembo today signed an agreement with Tenneco, a portfolio company of funds managed by affiliates of Apollo Global Management, Inc., for the acquisition of a 100% stake in Öhlins Racing, the leading manufacturer of premium, high performance suspension technology for motorcycles and cars in the Original Equipment, Motorsport, and Aftermarket segments.
“Öhlins is a strong fit for Brembo. It is a world-renowned brand, with a solid business and an unrivaled reputation, both on the racetrack and the road,” said Matteo Tiraboschi, Brembo Executive Chairman. “We welcome Öhlins to our Group as a great opportunity to expand our offerings for the automotive market. With this addition, we take another step forward in our strategy to provide integrated intelligent solutions to our customers, leveraging synergies across key technologies in the vehicle’s corner.”
Founded in 1976, Öhlins Racing is based in Upplands Väsby (Stockholm), Sweden, and has a strong international footprint. Öhlins employs approximately 500 people across two production facilities located in Sweden and Thailand, two R&D centers in Sweden and Thailand, and four distribution and testing branches in the U.S., Germany, Thailand and Sweden.
Öhlins’ suspension technology is renowned for precision, performance, and innovation. With decades of expertise and advanced engineering, Öhlins Racing offers an extensive range of products, including shock absorbers, front forks, steering dampers, software and algorithms, and accessories for the OEM and aftermarket segments. The company also has a strong racing heritage and presence in major motorsport championships, supplying MotoGP, Formula 1, World Superbike, NASCAR, and others. Öhlins Racing is projected to close 2024 with a turnover in the range of USD 144 million, with an expected adjusted EBITDA margin between 21% and 22%.
“We’re confident that Brembo is the right partner to take Öhlins Racing to the next level,” said Jim Voss, CEO of Tenneco. “This sale not only positions Öhlins and its employees for continued success under Brembo’s leadership in the market, but it also supports Tenneco’s strategy of streamlining our business portfolio and strengthening our balance sheet as we continue to execute on our long-term vision.”
"As we join forces with Brembo, we are excited to unlock new growth opportunities and leverage our respective strengths and assets to drive innovation and deliver even greater value to our customers and employees,” said Tom Wittenschlaeger, CEO of Öhlins Racing.
Öhlins Racing is committed to developing the next generation of mechatronic suspension technology for both road and track. This innovation-driven approach will reinforce Brembo’s mission to be a Solution Provider for future mobility.
This deal marks the largest acquisition in Brembo’s history. The purchase price is USD 405 million, (corresponding to 370 million at today’s exchange rate), on a cash free / debt free basis, subject to customary price adjustment mechanisms. The acquisition will be paid using available cash. The acquisition is subject to customary regulatory approvals and is expected to close in early 2025.
This acquisition continues Brembo’s investment in the motorcycle and motor racing area. In 2021 the Group acquired SBS Friction in Denmark and J.Juan in Spain, completing the offer of braking system solutions dedicated to two-wheelers. In February of this year, Brembo announced its entry into Thailand with a new production site dedicated to braking systems for motorcycle manufacturers. Brembo also controls Marchesini, the leading brand in the design and production of light alloy wheels for racing and road motorcycles. The two-wheeler business is today worth approximately 13% of Brembo’s total revenues.
BofA Securities is acting as financial advisor to Brembo. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett and BonelliErede are acting as legal advisors. Jefferies LLC is acting as lead financial advisor to Tenneco. Barclays is also acting as financial advisor and Sidley Austin LLP as legal advisor. 2 / 3About Brembo Brembo leads the world in the design and production of high-performance braking systems and components for topflight manufacturers of cars, motorbikes and commercial vehicles. Founded in 1961 in Italy, Brembo has a longstanding reputation for providing innovative solutions for OEMs and aftermarket. Brembo also competes in the most challenging motorsport championships in the world and has won over 600 titles. Guided by its strategic vision – “Turning Energy into Inspiration” – Brembo’s ambition is to help shape the future of mobility through cutting-edge, digital and sustainable solutions. With over 16,000 people across 15 countries, 32 production and business sites, 9 R&D centers and with a turnover of 3,849 million in 2023, Brembo is the trusted solution provider for everyone who demands the best driving experience.
Dogma persists where there are barriers to freely exchanged information, right? When an insider working on the design and manufacturing side says ‘test’ it seems to...
Dogma persists where there are barriers to freely exchanged information, right? When an insider working on the design and manufacturing side says ‘test’ it seems to me to mean something different from when anyone working the marketing and media side says it. And before you leap to the idea that i’m dragging the bike testers and youtubers for displaying a sense of conviction far outstripping the level of rigor in their process, it’s the highbrow side that chooses to keep the data secret, keep the methodologies vague, ensuring that no one has the tools to do a comparison across products. Unless they were to found something like the forthcoming “Outside (pinkbike) Labs” —and you know they’ll bring the skills and the integrity!!11! Every brand communicates from the center of their own bubble.
Let me put it concretely: feeling burned that people perform the dumbass handlebar twist test? Scolding doesn’t change much behavior. You have to offer something better to replace it. You need a lot of different people’s buy in. Strange but true: sram also has people working the streets saying trust us we’re engineers. Yeah so best of luck!
Outside labs? Any more info on it?
As for dogma, it's normal for people to hold to their convictions which is where dogmae come from. Finding out you've been wrong, even when proven wrong, is often a tough cookie to swallow. Too many people do not want to do that. But my god is the feeling of realizing you CAN have it better a good one. But it's still an uphill battle to get there every single time.
One step at a time. First we need journalists in the industry that understand how bikes actually function, and understand their own biases. Most are a fucking joke (looking at you, everyone at pinkbike except Kaz).
There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to invest time w/ a few Manufacturers and Teams in Bicycling. Every merger from outside of this Industry is not an open invitation to get bloated.
Flipside is your next post complaining how smaller niche supplier who knows 'the 'gram' went tits up due to 'the induhstry.
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. - There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to...
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. -
There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to invest time w/ a few Manufacturers and Teams in Bicycling. Every merger from outside of this Industry is not an open invitation to get bloated.
Flipside is your next post complaining how smaller niche supplier who knows 'the 'gram' went tits up due to 'the induhstry.
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. - There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to...
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. -
There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to invest time w/ a few Manufacturers and Teams in Bicycling. Every merger from outside of this Industry is not an open invitation to get bloated.
Flipside is your next post complaining how smaller niche supplier who knows 'the 'gram' went tits up due to 'the induhstry.
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. - There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to...
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. -
There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to invest time w/ a few Manufacturers and Teams in Bicycling. Every merger from outside of this Industry is not an open invitation to get bloated.
Flipside is your next post complaining how smaller niche supplier who knows 'the 'gram' went tits up due to 'the induhstry.
Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. I am not a crackpot!
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that business from their bike line.
Probably to mitigate the aftermarket issue WAO is dealing with.
I think one of the things that's most difficult for consumers, and even inside the bike industry pro-sumers to understand is how difficult and expensive the...
I think one of the things that's most difficult for consumers, and even inside the bike industry pro-sumers to understand is how difficult and expensive the tolerances are for mountain biking products. This is likely the other big factor in the cost gap and perception gap between moto parts and full vehicle costs (other than the other large one that is economics of scale). Any time you are specifying a tolerances that is tighter then +/- 1mm, things start costing way more, and the amount of suppliers that are capable/willing of taking that on plummet. Beyond that, the amount of people that are capable of doing that, at a reasonable volume with the proper qa/qc, plummet even further.
For example, Just from my own experience replacing sliding bushings on moto forks, It's immediately obvious that the stanchion and bushing tolerances are on a completely different planet. I'd venture to guess that you could have .5 - 1mm more bushing clearance on a moto without perceiving bushing knock.
You make a great point about tolerances and the complexity behind mountain biking products! Similar to the reviews I've seen on PissedConsumer regarding consumer awareness of these engineering complexities, it's not always easy for the average user to understand the level of precision and specialized expertise required. Many consumers don’t realize how much precision affects costs. And it's true that quality control plays a huge role.
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that...
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that business from their bike line.
Probably to mitigate the aftermarket issue WAO is dealing with.
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that...
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that business from their bike line.
Probably to mitigate the aftermarket issue WAO is dealing with.
@whitesq I know you mentioned that the creating the traditional fork would not be worth the time. So you went the USD route. Were the wilder things considered like linkage fork or even a take on the lefty?
Is it smaller? Their powersports business is significant I believe. They make components for off road moto, on road moto, 4 wheel racing and other powersports I believe. Maybe its more so that Rad Power is overevaluated as far as actual value.
both at once:
I am in the engineering department at Push, and we're all big fans of the Vital community! - Matt
I guess I should prefaced that manufacturing comment, before I get the "my buddy owns a casting shop and ..." 😂 So for starters there aren't many magnesium casting suppliers in the US (probably because of safety issues 🔥) but funny enough there is one just down the street from us. The problem with most US manufacturers is size, difficulty, volume, and capacity all have to align before they are interested in any new work. In my experience this is fundamentally different thinking than eastern suppliers that want your business first and foremost and will work through the issues later. Credit to the Asian suppliers making these castings, they are very difficult, but they've also had 30-40 years to refine the process and gradually scale up from 28mm forks to 40mm forks. I know the scale of these castings is outside the capability of our local supplier and I suspect the difficultly and volume would be outside the interest of others in the US. So all that to say, we're not against using a casting or other materials, but we have a building full of machines cutting aluminum (sometimes 24/7), so designing to your strengths makes a lot of sense.
Truly all options were on the table conventional, inverted, & linkage. Each has strengths and weaknesses, for us starting with a blank sheet design it was all about picking the layout we felt we could best minimize the weakness and maximize the strengths.
I'll also add, there's so much dogma in the bike industry, you can't do X because it has such bad Y...etc. We're not totally impervious to this thinking, but with this project we made it a point to actually test these assertions and sort fact from fiction. An example, from the start I felt we had to do a 20mm axle because everyone says so, it was Darren that commented how much it sucks to get a new fork and then realize your wheel doesn't work with it. So we tested and found the diameter has much less influence compared to the interface between the hub/lug/axle.
I super appreciate the number of product engineers we have in this forum. There's also PMs from brands and sales guys like me. Great to interact with super knowledgeable consumers and riders.
BTW, I was looking at the fork the other day. As technical of a product the fork is, I was a little surprised not to see some common details listed on the website. I couldn't for the life of me verify it was 15mm axle, didn't see A2C lengths or fork offset. Might not hurt to add some specs to the page.
Dogma persists where there are barriers to freely exchanged information, right? When an insider working on the design and manufacturing side says ‘test’ it seems to me to mean something different from when anyone working the marketing and media side says it. And before you leap to the idea that i’m dragging the bike testers and youtubers for displaying a sense of conviction far outstripping the level of rigor in their process, it’s the highbrow side that chooses to keep the data secret, keep the methodologies vague, ensuring that no one has the tools to do a comparison across products. Unless they were to found something like the forthcoming “Outside (pinkbike) Labs” —and you know they’ll bring the skills and the integrity!!11! Every brand communicates from the center of their own bubble.
Let me put it concretely: feeling burned that people perform the dumbass handlebar twist test? Scolding doesn’t change much behavior. You have to offer something better to replace it. You need a lot of different people’s buy in. Strange but true: sram also has people working the streets saying trust us we’re engineers. Yeah so best of luck!
Some brembo brakes would be sick on the eeb
Bold New Graphics
Outside labs? Any more info on it?
As for dogma, it's normal for people to hold to their convictions which is where dogmae come from. Finding out you've been wrong, even when proven wrong, is often a tough cookie to swallow. Too many people do not want to do that. But my god is the feeling of realizing you CAN have it better a good one. But it's still an uphill battle to get there every single time.
New Graphic Technology (NGT)
One step at a time. First we need journalists in the industry that understand how bikes actually function, and understand their own biases. Most are a fucking joke (looking at you, everyone at pinkbike except Kaz).
Dear Jefferson Budweiser McNuggets Jr. -
There's already enough bikes parts to choose from. Brembo is already grounded in Powersports, as is Öhlins. Öhlins just happens to invest time w/ a few Manufacturers and Teams in Bicycling. Every merger from outside of this Industry is not an open invitation to get bloated.
Flipside is your next post complaining how smaller niche supplier who knows 'the 'gram' went tits up due to 'the induhstry.
Woosh
If you don't have anything positive to say...
Back to everyone's favorite color.
Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. I am not a crackpot!
insta ban
you 2 knucklheads, please continue in DM! thx
Relating to WAO : back in the day when Evil bikes started making a chainguide and other components, they created the e.thirteen brand to separate that business from their bike line.
Probably to mitigate the aftermarket issue WAO is dealing with.
According to Dave Weagle they changed the name because Santa Cruz couldn’t spec them on their team bikes with the EVIL logo.
Have a listen to Nigel Page’s “Stay on Your Bike” podcast with him. It’s a good listen
You make a great point about tolerances and the complexity behind mountain biking products! Similar to the reviews I've seen on PissedConsumer regarding consumer awareness of these engineering complexities, it's not always easy for the average user to understand the level of precision and specialized expertise required. Many consumers don’t realize how much precision affects costs. And it's true that quality control plays a huge role.
E13 was created by Evil bikes? Dafaq?!?!?! O_o
Well, Dave Weagle started both initially before selling them off.
I think they gave the components a different name as they also made these at the same time.
https://p.vitalmtb.com/styles/full_size_1600/s3/photos/users/52061/setup_checks/121741/IMG_4459.JPG?VersionId=7ihTv.3nNSaEJidIjzgFvwGOx72dunnU&itok=b0wgoXc7
Wouldn't want to be associated with those monstrosity either.
When did Evil last release a new bike? been a while hasn't it?
They updated the Following, Offering and Wreckoning for UDH (LS models) around 18 months ago.
yes, although that is new colors, udh and the integrated trunnion spacers in the linkage, so, still same bike.
i'd love to see what's next, i feel they could tweak the geo a tad to make it more fresh, cause the bikes ride like nothing else already!