MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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4519
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3/18/2024 8:44am

If the brakes topic is still on, has anybody done any tests on the same set of brakes and changing the hose? Theoretically it should impact modulation, because of that (more lever throw once the pads contact) with swing links and servo waves and the like a softer hose could also influence (improve) the power of the brakes... Or braided hoses effectively lowering the power. 

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bizutch
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Fletcher, NC US
3/18/2024 8:46am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2024 8:47am
bizutch wrote:
So...I can't search 20+ pages of data.  The one post where you guys posted the review of the Maven's where the guy basically concluded they were...

So...I can't search 20+ pages of data.  The one post where you guys posted the review of the Maven's where the guy basically concluded they were awful & he couldn't get a gorilla to actuate the lever.....was he the only one?

Krispy wrote:
Seems like the lever has a bit of a breakaway feel to get the swing link to move kind of like Shimano. Once the lever is...

Seems like the lever has a bit of a breakaway feel to get the swing link to move kind of like Shimano. Once the lever is engaged though, the perceived feel is pretty light since there is a ridiculous amount of power on tap. It kind of reminds me of a Hope Tech 3 if you’ve ever experienced those.

I personally think they feel this way because-

They want the lever to be really durable,

The firm feel keeps down the accidental panic breaking

The seals are stiff and so is the spring.

I installed a pair and didn’t notice the firmness in a parking lot ride, I was mostly consumed by the insane power. Haven’t ridden them off road yet.

I had a set of TRP DHR EVO’s and couldn’t ride them with the lever being so far from the grip. Made them feel “unrideable and gave me arm pump” even though the lever pull is light and the feel was great. Once I filed a couple threads off of the barrel I could adjust them closer and they were awesome.

Just an example of personal preference having a huge impact on performance.

Seems like that YouTube goober had set them up strangely to replicate his old brakes. Not saying he’s wrong but I bet these can be set up really close to the bar (Which makes the Code feel less than confidence inspiring) and feel great but people have SRAM notions that a Maven should be set up differently.

Make sense?

 

Shinook wrote:
This reflects my experiences with them, as well.  The YouTuber was Dale Stone, but he's a super light rider (~160lbs) coming off Intend brakes. He went...

This reflects my experiences with them, as well. 

The YouTuber was Dale Stone, but he's a super light rider (~160lbs) coming off Intend brakes. He went straight to metallic pads. As far as I can tell, he didn't adjust the contact point at all or spend any time trying different rotor/pad combinations. SRAM pointed out that you'd need to test these with different rotor/pad combinations because the power and bite point is so much more progressive than most other offerings, which again reflects my experience. The heavier riders I know on these brakes are, for the first time, dialing the contact point in due to the power and progression. You really need to go in expecting to need to tweak these or you'll have a bad time, especially lighter riders, who these flat out may not work for unless they are on an insanely heavy bike

Yes, the lever has more force right off the top than other brakes, but I really didn't find it that significant. All brakes are going to ramp up force once you hit the contact point with the pads, this force increase (on all but the Maximas and maybe Hope T4 V4) is going to require more hand strength than the Mavens do through their deadstroke, this is where most hand fatigue problems are going to come from. In other words, if you can't manage to pull through the deadstroke on the Mavens, I'd be surprised if you can brake at all unless you are on the two brakes I list above. IMO it's really not that firm feeling and this coming from someone with chronic hand fatigue problems.

I found they reduced my hand fatigue (which is significant for me at times) simply because I could feather the bite point and obtain more power for less pull once they engage. IMO there are legitimate complaints about them, they are hideous and obscenely large, but the lever feel isn't one of them. The progression of power is manageable but really strong if the contact point is left all the way out, they are some of the more powerful brakes I've owned, but it's hard to tell if it's overall power or simply that they are more progressive.

I'd also point out that Intends have a very light stroke, so do Trickstuff. Going from those to any mass produced brake except maybe the Hopes is going to make it feel like more force is required. 

My favorite brake of all time is when I've ridden other guys Hope brakes.
But I have Codes & Guides on current bikes just due to "winding up with", not seeeking out.

I'm like Krispy & run my reach adjust fairly close to the bar.  Don't like reaching way out to pull a lever in just for "feel or modulation".
Modulation should happen from a half pull and to the bar itself.  
The one thing I can't stand about my Codes and/or Guides is that if you're on a ripper running day of laps, at some point either you gotta back the lever out to a reach point that's inconvenient to make up for pad wear & get more throw in to get your power/bite point back.
OR...you get the reach right, the power almost perfect BUT...then you feel the perch and lever flex toward and sometimes touch the grip when you've got a heavy yank.

Maven's sound like a damn nightmare to me.  I want to buy/try them. But damn...I do NOT want to pull wheels, try rotors, try the next rotor, then maybe the next one, then go back through trying a different pad with each style rotor and....good lord!

1
Primoz
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Location
SI
3/18/2024 8:53am

Code R or Code RSC?

Modulation is what happens when the pads contact the rotor, not during the lever pull. 

Agreed on Mavens sound cumbersome to dial in though... Not for the average customer, which is surprising given the size of company that is Sram. Would expect a product like that to come from a boutique brand to be honest. 

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Shinook
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Asheville, NC US
3/18/2024 9:13am
dolface wrote:

LOL at 160lbs being "super light"... 'murica!

Muscle mass and height can attribute to weight too. I know a lot of riders over 200lbs that are super strong and I’d be surprised if most elite DH or enduro riders over 6ft aren’t close to or over that.

I am 210 due to pizza, beer and cake less than gym time, but that’s not everyone.

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Shinook
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Asheville, NC US
3/18/2024 9:15am
bizutch wrote:
My favorite brake of all time is when I've ridden other guys Hope brakes. But I have Codes & Guides on current bikes just due to...

My favorite brake of all time is when I've ridden other guys Hope brakes.
But I have Codes & Guides on current bikes just due to "winding up with", not seeeking out.

I'm like Krispy & run my reach adjust fairly close to the bar.  Don't like reaching way out to pull a lever in just for "feel or modulation".
Modulation should happen from a half pull and to the bar itself.  
The one thing I can't stand about my Codes and/or Guides is that if you're on a ripper running day of laps, at some point either you gotta back the lever out to a reach point that's inconvenient to make up for pad wear & get more throw in to get your power/bite point back.
OR...you get the reach right, the power almost perfect BUT...then you feel the perch and lever flex toward and sometimes touch the grip when you've got a heavy yank.

Maven's sound like a damn nightmare to me.  I want to buy/try them. But damn...I do NOT want to pull wheels, try rotors, try the next rotor, then maybe the next one, then go back through trying a different pad with each style rotor and....good lord!

I didn’t do any of that. I just threw them on and rode them. I think this is where heavier riders will get along better than those under 200 or especially 180. They are very grabby, which is gonna be harder to dial in for lighter riders than heavier ones.

A rider like Dale would need more tweaking than someone like me or someone heavier 

1
dolface
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3/18/2024 9:19am
dolface wrote:

LOL at 160lbs being "super light"... 'murica!

Shinook wrote:
Muscle mass and height can attribute to weight too. I know a lot of riders over 200lbs that are super strong and I’d be surprised if...

Muscle mass and height can attribute to weight too. I know a lot of riders over 200lbs that are super strong and I’d be surprised if most elite DH or enduro riders over 6ft aren’t close to or over that.

I am 210 due to pizza, beer and cake less than gym time, but that’s not everyone.

Yeah, I get it. I'm 5'7", 125lbs which is why it was funny to me...

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2
chasejj
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Alamo, CA US
3/18/2024 10:16am
GyB wrote:
Bit of a speculation on the most possibly never going to happen nukeproof reactor V3. All the comparisons are made with the current V2 generation in...

Bit of a speculation on the most possibly never going to happen nukeproof reactor V3. All the comparisons are made with the current V2 generation in mind. (I consider the old hardtail as the V1 generation)

Would be nice to get a full rundown from Mr. Page himself. Or would be possible to buy the prototype from him?

- Geometry
Geometrywise it might have got a standard longer slacker lower treatment.

- No Cable Tourism
All the cables are routed internally, yet not through the headset. Hooray! 

- Horst Link stays
I was expecting a flex pivot. If the rear travel stayed 130 mm they could have implemented flex pivot. Specialized and Merida can solve this on their frames that has more rear travel.

- Brake line disappearing into the chainstay
Instead of routing the brake line outboard, they are now going on the inside of the chainstay. It would have been nice to have a fully external brake line solution.

- Brake + rear derailleur line over the bottom bracket.
At least the brake line is over the bottom bracket, but the rear derailleur line is not visible. Possibly because of AXS? Definitely an improvement over the current model where the cables / lines are routed under.

- Bottom bracket housing looks to be quite big in dimateter compared to the bottom bracket. Could it be a T47?
With all the 30 mm spindles, and outboard bearings the wall thickness of the standard BSA bottom bracket is quite thin. T47 could help on this as it allows for thicker walls. Can not be a coincidence that Hambini makes BSA/30 mm bottom brakcets in titanium.

- 2 Cable ports on the downtube for brake line? 
As the frame is made of carbon on the picture, and it must have inside channels for the brake lines, I suppose that one channel is coming out next to the headtube on the left (for EU) the other is coming out on the right side for UK / moto people.

Brakelineimage-20240314130631-1

iceman2058 wrote:
Having a solution to route brake lines left or right would be SICK. As a moto style rider I’m forever having to put up with the...

Having a solution to route brake lines left or right would be SICK. As a moto style rider I’m forever having to put up with the rear brake cable coming out the wrong side and it just looks untidy. 

veefour wrote:
Considering how much of the world runs brakes moto style it blows my mind how many manufacturers don't make allowances for it. I wouldn't consider doing...

Considering how much of the world runs brakes moto style it blows my mind how many manufacturers don't make allowances for it.

I wouldn't consider doing it with a carbon frame, but I did drill a Commencal alloy frame for moto routing a few years ago, as they are one of many brands that just thinks everyone runs their brakes the way they do.

I even rerouted my drop bar Duraace road bikes moto style BITD. I think it is insane to run anything else as the muscle memory is a disaster, going from one way to another.

1
krabo83
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AT
3/18/2024 11:33am Edited Date/Time 3/18/2024 11:52am
bizutch wrote:
My favorite brake of all time is when I've ridden other guys Hope brakes. But I have Codes & Guides on current bikes just due to...

My favorite brake of all time is when I've ridden other guys Hope brakes.
But I have Codes & Guides on current bikes just due to "winding up with", not seeeking out.

I'm like Krispy & run my reach adjust fairly close to the bar.  Don't like reaching way out to pull a lever in just for "feel or modulation".
Modulation should happen from a half pull and to the bar itself.  
The one thing I can't stand about my Codes and/or Guides is that if you're on a ripper running day of laps, at some point either you gotta back the lever out to a reach point that's inconvenient to make up for pad wear & get more throw in to get your power/bite point back.
OR...you get the reach right, the power almost perfect BUT...then you feel the perch and lever flex toward and sometimes touch the grip when you've got a heavy yank.

Maven's sound like a damn nightmare to me.  I want to buy/try them. But damn...I do NOT want to pull wheels, try rotors, try the next rotor, then maybe the next one, then go back through trying a different pad with each style rotor and....good lord!

i swiched to mavens coming from code RCSs, still riding 200mm front and rear, only thing i changed was now running organic pads in both ends. tried sintered in the rear same as with codes but wheel locked up too quick for my taste. now with organics on both ends brake is real dream, same feel/modulation as codes but with way more power. lever pull isn‘t any firmer than on the codes. can only recommend tryin mavens. hope that helped Smile

edit: also i‘m on the lighter side with around 165lbs.

7
3/18/2024 12:02pm
peecee wrote:

IMG 3983

IMG 0908

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chriskief
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New York, NY US
3/18/2024 12:10pm
peecee wrote:

IMG 3983

IMG 0908

Looks like front and rear Flight Attendant.

2
bizutch
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Fletcher, NC US
3/18/2024 12:27pm

There was a little piece of tech hiding at Aussie Nats that hasn't been mentioned here. 

2
39
TimBud
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530
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GB
3/18/2024 12:45pm
bizutch wrote:

There was a little piece of tech hiding at Aussie Nats that hasn't been mentioned here. 

Don’t be that guy

”I’ve got a secret… tee hee hee”

It’s pathetic even for 7 year olds

46
3
Sjames88
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Location
AU
3/18/2024 1:46pm

Are they also still testing the electronic fox coil on the covered up rocky? Noticed the sensors on the front and rear calipers. 

3
3/18/2024 2:31pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2024 2:39pm
Krispy wrote:
Seems like the lever has a bit of a breakaway feel to get the swing link to move kind of like Shimano. Once the lever is...

Seems like the lever has a bit of a breakaway feel to get the swing link to move kind of like Shimano. Once the lever is engaged though, the perceived feel is pretty light since there is a ridiculous amount of power on tap. It kind of reminds me of a Hope Tech 3 if you’ve ever experienced those.

I personally think they feel this way because-

They want the lever to be really durable,

The firm feel keeps down the accidental panic breaking

The seals are stiff and so is the spring.

I installed a pair and didn’t notice the firmness in a parking lot ride, I was mostly consumed by the insane power. Haven’t ridden them off road yet.

I had a set of TRP DHR EVO’s and couldn’t ride them with the lever being so far from the grip. Made them feel “unrideable and gave me arm pump” even though the lever pull is light and the feel was great. Once I filed a couple threads off of the barrel I could adjust them closer and they were awesome.

Just an example of personal preference having a huge impact on performance.

Seems like that YouTube goober had set them up strangely to replicate his old brakes. Not saying he’s wrong but I bet these can be set up really close to the bar (Which makes the Code feel less than confidence inspiring) and feel great but people have SRAM notions that a Maven should be set up differently.

Make sense?

 

Shinook wrote:
This reflects my experiences with them, as well.  The YouTuber was Dale Stone, but he's a super light rider (~160lbs) coming off Intend brakes. He went...

This reflects my experiences with them, as well. 

The YouTuber was Dale Stone, but he's a super light rider (~160lbs) coming off Intend brakes. He went straight to metallic pads. As far as I can tell, he didn't adjust the contact point at all or spend any time trying different rotor/pad combinations. SRAM pointed out that you'd need to test these with different rotor/pad combinations because the power and bite point is so much more progressive than most other offerings, which again reflects my experience. The heavier riders I know on these brakes are, for the first time, dialing the contact point in due to the power and progression. You really need to go in expecting to need to tweak these or you'll have a bad time, especially lighter riders, who these flat out may not work for unless they are on an insanely heavy bike

Yes, the lever has more force right off the top than other brakes, but I really didn't find it that significant. All brakes are going to ramp up force once you hit the contact point with the pads, this force increase (on all but the Maximas and maybe Hope T4 V4) is going to require more hand strength than the Mavens do through their deadstroke, this is where most hand fatigue problems are going to come from. In other words, if you can't manage to pull through the deadstroke on the Mavens, I'd be surprised if you can brake at all unless you are on the two brakes I list above. IMO it's really not that firm feeling and this coming from someone with chronic hand fatigue problems.

I found they reduced my hand fatigue (which is significant for me at times) simply because I could feather the bite point and obtain more power for less pull once they engage. IMO there are legitimate complaints about them, they are hideous and obscenely large, but the lever feel isn't one of them. The progression of power is manageable but really strong if the contact point is left all the way out, they are some of the more powerful brakes I've owned, but it's hard to tell if it's overall power or simply that they are more progressive.

I'd also point out that Intends have a very light stroke, so do Trickstuff. Going from those to any mass produced brake except maybe the Hopes is going to make it feel like more force is required. 

dolface wrote:

LOL at 160lbs being "super light"... 'murica!

fwiw Dale said in the video he is 62kg which is ~135lbs (I would know as I'm the exact same weight lol). Sorry to keep adding on to the endless brake topic but it was really intriguing to me as there seems to be very little representation of us lightweights in MTB media and discussion, especially with regards to suspension and brake tuning/feel. Sadly women (for whom this topic would generally be more useful) are left out even more from these conversations, which should be a big reason to start having them.

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1
Shinook
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3/18/2024 2:50pm Edited Date/Time 3/18/2024 2:53pm
fwiw Dale said in the video he is 62kg which is ~135lbs (I would know as I'm the exact same weight lol). Sorry to keep adding...

fwiw Dale said in the video he is 62kg which is ~135lbs (I would know as I'm the exact same weight lol). Sorry to keep adding on to the endless brake topic but it was really intriguing to me as there seems to be very little representation of us lightweights in MTB media and discussion, especially with regards to suspension and brake tuning/feel. Sadly women (for whom this topic would generally be more useful) are left out even more from these conversations, which should be a big reason to start having them.

Sorry, that's my mistake. I thought I heard him say 160. 

Having ridden the Mavens a fair bit, the overall point I was trying to make is that I think lighter riders will struggle with them a lot more than heavier riders will. Even folks slightly lighter than me are dialing the contact point almost all the way in and running the levers close to the bar. It's gonna be really hard for much lighter riders to get along with these since they ramp up so quickly and bite so hard. I (210-220ish) was running organic pads with 200 rotors and it was close to too much for me, I just put them on my SST (LOLOLOLOL, yes it's dumb putting these on a 120mm bike but it's what I had) which is max 180, so it's gonna be interesting to see how that plays out. I'm surprised a 135lb rider wasn't chewing their handlebar the entire time riding these.

I believe some other reviewers on the lighter side noticed and commented on the same thing. I think it is an interesting contrast especially to Kazimer, who reviewed the Maximas and made no such note despite them theoretically having more power. IMO having run both, it comes down to the way the power progresses rather than how much is available and tuning them will only achieve so much for certain riders. I'd venture almost everyone could get along with Maximas, but Mavens is another story.

IMO this is also why we won't see these on a lot of OE spec mtbs. They just aren't going to work for everyone, but if you fall into the category they work for, IMO they are really really good for a brake from a high quantity manufacturer and I don't agree at all with the lever force "issue".

2
peecee
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Brisbane AU
3/18/2024 3:14pm
bizutch wrote:

There was a little piece of tech hiding at Aussie Nats that hasn't been mentioned here. 

Someone wants attention 

18
1
lloyd506
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CA
3/18/2024 3:35pm
bizutch wrote:

There was a little piece of tech hiding at Aussie Nats that hasn't been mentioned here. 

peecee wrote:

Someone wants attention 

Did you look under a bike diaper? 

brash
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AU
3/18/2024 4:07pm
sspomer wrote:
rocky undercover at the windrock enduro

rocky undercover at the windrock enduro

sockymtn

RockyCover1.jpg?VersionId=wzf6cakE09

RockyCover2

krabo83 wrote:
so remi is also on that black 38, same as richies was seen. seems like a new chassis incoming maybe? last time fox did that it...

so remi is also on that black 38, same as richies was seen. seems like a new chassis incoming maybe? last time fox did that it was when the 38 was coming.

Buttons wrote:
This is definitely wild speculation but fox does have part numbers for the rhythm 38. Previous rhythm products were a little heavier and used some different...

This is definitely wild speculation but fox does have part numbers for the rhythm 38. Previous rhythm products were a little heavier and used some different materials. The most significant difference was a thicker tube wall for the stations. I have a z1 bomber and have ridden it back to back with 36 and I think there is definitely a stiffness benefit from the thicker tubes. Maybe these black stantion 38s are using the rhythm chassis to get a little more stiffness.

Pretty sure 38 Rhythm and Factory are the same chassis, unlike the 36. The 36 Rhythm uses a 34 airspring diameter, same as the 38 airspring tube in tube.

1
owl-x
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3/18/2024 5:18pm
dolface wrote:

LOL at 160lbs being "super light"... 'murica!

Shinook wrote:
Muscle mass and height can attribute to weight too. I know a lot of riders over 200lbs that are super strong and I’d be surprised if...

Muscle mass and height can attribute to weight too. I know a lot of riders over 200lbs that are super strong and I’d be surprised if most elite DH or enduro riders over 6ft aren’t close to or over that.

I am 210 due to pizza, beer and cake less than gym time, but that’s not everyone.

How many World Cup riders are 200+, in your estimation? I’d say zero.
 

 

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10
Shinook
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3/18/2024 5:39pm
owl-x wrote:

How many World Cup riders are 200+, in your estimation? I’d say zero.
 

 

Richie Rude is 92kg

How many? I have no idea, there isn't a lot of info on elite athletes and their weight ranges, but it isn't hard for someone muscular over 6ft to break 200lbs or be close. They aren't bumping 220, 230, etc, but approaching or over 200lbs isn't unreasonable for a 6ft tall or taller athlete especially in a discipline requiring as much gym time as DH or enduro.

12
3/18/2024 5:40pm
owl-x wrote:

How many World Cup riders are 200+, in your estimation? I’d say zero.
 

 

Shinook wrote:
Richie Rude is 92kg How many? I have no idea, there isn't a lot of info on elite athletes and their weight ranges, but it isn't...

Richie Rude is 92kg

How many? I have no idea, there isn't a lot of info on elite athletes and their weight ranges, but it isn't hard for someone muscular over 6ft to break 200lbs or be close. They aren't bumping 220, 230, etc, but approaching or over 200lbs isn't unreasonable for a 6ft tall or taller athlete especially in a discipline requiring as much gym time as DH or enduro.

Bruni probably isn't far off either.

earleb
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3/18/2024 6:06pm
owl-x wrote:

How many World Cup riders are 200+, in your estimation? I’d say zero.
 

 

Shinook wrote:
Richie Rude is 92kg How many? I have no idea, there isn't a lot of info on elite athletes and their weight ranges, but it isn't...

Richie Rude is 92kg

How many? I have no idea, there isn't a lot of info on elite athletes and their weight ranges, but it isn't hard for someone muscular over 6ft to break 200lbs or be close. They aren't bumping 220, 230, etc, but approaching or over 200lbs isn't unreasonable for a 6ft tall or taller athlete especially in a discipline requiring as much gym time as DH or enduro.

Bruni probably isn't far off either.

2021 bike check on Pinkbike lists Bruni as 75kg. So not close to 200lbs /90kg.

3
matmattmatthew
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Fresh Prince of Bel Air, MD US
3/18/2024 7:01pm

Stay on target boys!  We are drifting into Weight Rumors and Innovation territory.  

21
Digit Bikes
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Irvine, CA US
3/18/2024 7:04pm

With zero press or fanfare (that I noticed), this new (v4) AXS pod showed up on Sram's website.

Has anyone touched it yet? I'm a fan of the Rocker Paddle (v2), I was was kinda ambivilent toward v1 which I think maybe this is trying to emulate. I don't get along with the first pods (v3).

https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/ec-axs-podr-c1

image-20240318182900-3

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dknapton
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CA
3/18/2024 9:17pm

The other site has an article with a bit of an update on why they think Bernards Pivot broke. A comment from the main Pivot guy. 

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Stewyeww
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3/18/2024 9:53pm
earleb wrote:

2021 bike check on Pinkbike lists Bruni as 75kg. So not close to 200lbs /90kg.

That was a few years ago now, I don't study mountain bikers physique year to year but a few off seasons in the gym will would get him up there pretty easily

Marcus J
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SE
3/18/2024 11:29pm
With zero press or fanfare (that I noticed), this new (v4) AXS pod showed up on Sram's website. Has anyone touched it yet? I'm a fan...

With zero press or fanfare (that I noticed), this new (v4) AXS pod showed up on Sram's website.

Has anyone touched it yet? I'm a fan of the Rocker Paddle (v2), I was was kinda ambivilent toward v1 which I think maybe this is trying to emulate. I don't get along with the first pods (v3).

https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/ec-axs-podr-c1

image-20240318182900-3

There is supposed to be a "v2" left paddle. That would be my pick if i went down the transmission etc ecosystem. (I like my v2 shifter)

image-20240319072723-1

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