Curious to see if anyone does a SB160 switch infinity vs 6finity comparison video or write up. Hopefully a credible YouTuber/publication has something in the works.
Curious to see if anyone does a SB160 switch infinity vs 6finity comparison video or write up. Hopefully a credible YouTuber/publication has something in the works.
Curious to see if anyone does a SB160 switch infinity vs 6finity comparison video or write up. Hopefully a credible YouTuber/publication has something in the works.
I know for a fact that a dealer near me is testing the new bike currently fwiw. Comparison to SB160 highly likely also.
Thanks for an actual answer!I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service"...
Thanks for an actual answer!
I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service". It is actually something that keeps me off many boutique parts..well besides budget these days..
It is a very solid argument that needs to be overcome to change it, no shops will stock belts until they're quite common. And that does take someone who believes the benefits outweigh the risk.
I'm having a harder time with the weight and efficiency argument. Just compare an Enduro bike from pre-2020 and anything today. They got way heavier, beefed up, downhill tires etc. DH tires alone make the same weight difference, and are way more pain to overcome than a few percent in drivetrain losses compared to a clean chain in a straight chain line. So why is that argument going around for years yet is rather inconsistent regarding its benefits?
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy...
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy high fitness. I guess maybe people in Phoenix where the rocks are razors and the rides are short. Bike weight matters a whole lot less than tire efficiency, especially for us humans who are bigger than average.
For people I ride with, in the PNW, we're always struggling to keep up with one or two friends who seemingly float up the climbs. Pedaling efficiency still matters for bike enjoyment, a lot. E-bikes are where gearboxes have potential, they'll never be mainstream on mountian bikes, ever, because physics and friends.
Long time lurker… longer than I’ve been an ‘official’ member…
Phoenix local here… DH tires. Cushcore.. and a Neo Shock.
I ride a 2023 Rocky Mountain Altitude and the Neo- has been an absolute game changer for me. I pedal a lot.. and it has made my enduro into a ‘trail-duro’ it’s been a huge innovation for me. DH tires and cushcore so I don’t get stranded in the desert heat and can bash the rocks back.. Neo to pedal all day. I’d recommend it for the type of riding I have out the front door from the house.
I think it’s important to remember in the tech rumors forum that we all have dope bikes, tailored specifically for where we ride, and that it’s never the same everywhere for everyone and that minion DHF is still the best tire ever always
Thanks for an actual answer!I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service"...
Thanks for an actual answer!
I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service". It is actually something that keeps me off many boutique parts..well besides budget these days..
It is a very solid argument that needs to be overcome to change it, no shops will stock belts until they're quite common. And that does take someone who believes the benefits outweigh the risk.
I'm having a harder time with the weight and efficiency argument. Just compare an Enduro bike from pre-2020 and anything today. They got way heavier, beefed up, downhill tires etc. DH tires alone make the same weight difference, and are way more pain to overcome than a few percent in drivetrain losses compared to a clean chain in a straight chain line. So why is that argument going around for years yet is rather inconsistent regarding its benefits?
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy...
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy high fitness. I guess maybe people in Phoenix where the rocks are razors and the rides are short. Bike weight matters a whole lot less than tire efficiency, especially for us humans who are bigger than average.
For people I ride with, in the PNW, we're always struggling to keep up with one or two friends who seemingly float up the climbs. Pedaling efficiency still matters for bike enjoyment, a lot. E-bikes are where gearboxes have potential, they'll never be mainstream on mountian bikes, ever, because physics and friends.
Most people I pedal with are on either dh or dd casing tires out here in Alberta. The Rockies are not kind to weak tires.
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye is this weekend. Is the black piece another attempt at the canyon breakaway helmet, is it just a fancy sunglass holder, maybe aero? Couldn't find a great photo but its odd looking.
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye...
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye is this weekend. Is the black piece another attempt at the canyon breakaway helmet, is it just a fancy sunglass holder, maybe aero? Couldn't find a great photo but its odd looking.
"Among the highlights of the collection are the Centric RC MIPS and Cadence RC MIPS helmets, two models already established within the SCOTT range but updated to remain the brand's reference for competitive use.
Both models feature the MIPS protection system, designed to reduce the rotational forces transmitted to the brain during oblique impacts. They also include a specific goggle holder (Centric RC only) and features designed to maximize aerodynamic performance."
Gearboxes are here. High output Analog bikes will still skip them until the gearboxes get way way lighter and smoother, but I think it’s also one...
Gearboxes are here. High output Analog bikes will still skip them until the gearboxes get way way lighter and smoother, but I think it’s also one of the only things left to push a concept with the geo and suspension designs so dialed. Yes. Chains will be wear they end up tho. Because chains survive mountain biking way better than belts. And are repairable. But none of it matters until tech rumors has more rumors - and that means either 1. Pinion goes hard on a new design or 2. A disruptive box maker comes in with something very clever
Let's not forget 2nd place mens overall for enduro world cup is currently on a gearbox belt drive bike - gearboxes are coming for pedal bikes too people.
Idk how anyone in their right mind defends a derailleur. Seems absurdly obvious that a gearbox will soon be the better option for most long travel applications. It will start with ebikes and continue to make its way to DH/Enduro/Trail.. XC might be a while.
An encased system with the weight at the BB is going to beat an exposed system hanging off the rear wheel.
Gearboxes are here. High output Analog bikes will still skip them until the gearboxes get way way lighter and smoother, but I think it’s also one...
Gearboxes are here. High output Analog bikes will still skip them until the gearboxes get way way lighter and smoother, but I think it’s also one of the only things left to push a concept with the geo and suspension designs so dialed. Yes. Chains will be wear they end up tho. Because chains survive mountain biking way better than belts. And are repairable. But none of it matters until tech rumors has more rumors - and that means either 1. Pinion goes hard on a new design or 2. A disruptive box maker comes in with something very clever
Let's not forget 2nd place mens overall for enduro world cup is currently on a gearbox belt drive bike - gearboxes are coming for pedal bikes...
Let's not forget 2nd place mens overall for enduro world cup is currently on a gearbox belt drive bike - gearboxes are coming for pedal bikes too people.
Idk how anyone in their right mind defends a derailleur. Seems absurdly obvious that a gearbox will soon be the better option for most long travel applications. It will start with ebikes and continue to make its way to DH/Enduro/Trail.. XC might be a while.
An encased system with the weight at the BB is going to beat an exposed system hanging off the rear wheel.
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so the gears break in. I wonder if there's a reason that Pinion doesn't pre break-in their gearboxes before shipping them out. It would likely make the consumer experience much better.
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so...
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so the gears break in. I wonder if there's a reason that Pinion doesn't pre break-in their gearboxes before shipping them out. It would likely make the consumer experience much better.
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for being a tech rumors thread.
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't going to see widespread adoption or replacement of current drivetrains.
They are heavier and less efficient, the frame also has to be built around it, which means if you don't want it for some reason, that frame is out for you. They are more complicated to maintain, shops don't have the expertise to deal with them widely across regions, and do the smaller brands like Pinion have the facility to deal with large scale service/warranty from big brands? These larger brands like Specialized won't adopt stuff unless this scaling exists because it blows back on them if there are issues. The supply chain also doesn't exist for shops.
At a time when bikes are already way too expensive, it just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder to maintain/fix, more expensive option that you have to use with your frame and no one has parts for. All to solve what exactly? Broken rear mechs?
I think they are cool, I'd ride one if there was a bike I was interested in, I also think the traditional drivetrains are kinda meh and at the limit of innovation. The issue is that gearboxes present more problems than they solve at a large scale, problems that have existed since the beginning and probably can't be engineered out.
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't...
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't going to see widespread adoption or replacement of current drivetrains.
They are heavier and less efficient, the frame also has to be built around it, which means if you don't want it for some reason, that frame is out for you. They are more complicated to maintain, shops don't have the expertise to deal with them widely across regions, and do the smaller brands like Pinion have the facility to deal with large scale service/warranty from big brands? These larger brands like Specialized won't adopt stuff unless this scaling exists because it blows back on them if there are issues. The supply chain also doesn't exist for shops.
At a time when bikes are already way too expensive, it just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder to maintain/fix, more expensive option that you have to use with your frame and no one has parts for. All to solve what exactly? Broken rear mechs?
I think they are cool, I'd ride one if there was a bike I was interested in, I also think the traditional drivetrains are kinda meh and at the limit of innovation. The issue is that gearboxes present more problems than they solve at a large scale, problems that have existed since the beginning and probably can't be engineered out.
I swear this is SRAM propaganda:
"It just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder-to-maintain, more expensive option that's locked to your frame and that no one has parts for."
More complex to maintain? The Pinion service interval is 6,200 miles — people race entire seasons without touching their gearbox. Meanwhile derailleur drivetrains need constant adjustment and eat consumables, especially on ebikes.
Gearboxes will take over ebikes within a few years — the motor negates the efficiency loss, the weight is low and centered, and ebike torque destroys conventional drivetrains anyway. DH won't be far behind (less unsprung mass, nothing to smash on rocks). Enduro and trail will lag, but they'll follow.
This isn't an if, it's a when. I don't get the loyalty to derailleurs.
Things break. This isn't an uncommon theme among mechanical things. Just because some work for the service interval doesn't mean that every one leaving the factory will. When you function on the scale of these larger brands, these things become a problem and a consideration. I can go into any LBS and buy a rear mech almost anywhere in the world, how do you deal with that with gearboxes when something fails or needs replacement? Consider this across 10s of thousands of bikes and you start to see the problem.
There's also a huge difference between loyalty to rear mechs and seeing why gearboxes won't see widespread adoption, so don't beat up strawmen. I am not loyal to derailleurs, I just understand why gearboxes will not see widespread adoption for pedal bikes. eBikes are another story.
I swear this is SRAM propaganda:"It just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder-to-maintain, more expensive option that's locked to your frame and...
I swear this is SRAM propaganda:
"It just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder-to-maintain, more expensive option that's locked to your frame and that no one has parts for."
More complex to maintain? The Pinion service interval is 6,200 miles — people race entire seasons without touching their gearbox. Meanwhile derailleur drivetrains need constant adjustment and eat consumables, especially on ebikes.
Gearboxes will take over ebikes within a few years — the motor negates the efficiency loss, the weight is low and centered, and ebike torque destroys conventional drivetrains anyway. DH won't be far behind (less unsprung mass, nothing to smash on rocks). Enduro and trail will lag, but they'll follow.
This isn't an if, it's a when. I don't get the loyalty to derailleurs.
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't...
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't going to see widespread adoption or replacement of current drivetrains.
They are heavier and less efficient, the frame also has to be built around it, which means if you don't want it for some reason, that frame is out for you. They are more complicated to maintain, shops don't have the expertise to deal with them widely across regions, and do the smaller brands like Pinion have the facility to deal with large scale service/warranty from big brands? These larger brands like Specialized won't adopt stuff unless this scaling exists because it blows back on them if there are issues. The supply chain also doesn't exist for shops.
At a time when bikes are already way too expensive, it just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder to maintain/fix, more expensive option that you have to use with your frame and no one has parts for. All to solve what exactly? Broken rear mechs?
I think they are cool, I'd ride one if there was a bike I was interested in, I also think the traditional drivetrains are kinda meh and at the limit of innovation. The issue is that gearboxes present more problems than they solve at a large scale, problems that have existed since the beginning and probably can't be engineered out.
Try 25 years. Ever since the first Rohloff hub integrated frames that Nicolai built.
I agree that I don’t think they will see widespread popularity, but the key ingredient to their design is how tough and low maintenance they are. All you really have to do is change the oil. Anecdotal example is a friend of mine who has an Archibald. Hasn’t had to do anything to that gearbox, and he’s been pounding it for two years
The benefits go beyond just a broken rear derailleur. No more clutching that contributes to suspension action, and there’s a lot of sprung weight to deal with back there. A rear mech can also potentially go in your spokes, or break your frame.
You say it doesn’t make sense, but a bigger company is going to produce what they think will sell. GT tried it back in the day, and it didn’t sell. Tech has come a long way since then…
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao or whatever they are called have a CVT gearbox using two electric motors. That kind of a "gearbox" (integrated variable transmission to be precise) is wholly incompatible with bikes that do not have batteries.
The only viable gearbox option covering both ebikes and bikes is the Pinion which is, functionally (speaking in volumes), non existent in both camps.
As @Shinook and @Uncle Cliffy have said, the future has been promised for years now with nothing happening. Same as the year of the Linux. Except there Microsoft is shitting the bed so bad Linux is actually becoming a good option.
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao...
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao or whatever they are called have a CVT gearbox using two electric motors. That kind of a "gearbox" (integrated variable transmission to be precise) is wholly incompatible with bikes that do not have batteries.
The only viable gearbox option covering both ebikes and bikes is the Pinion which is, functionally (speaking in volumes), non existent in both camps.
As @Shinook and @Uncle Cliffy have said, the future has been promised for years now with nothing happening. Same as the year of the Linux. Except there Microsoft is shitting the bed so bad Linux is actually becoming a good option.
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.
And four major DH teams on gearboxes.
Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…
Let’s see the downvote of simple facts from the derailleur cabal.
“But I can buy a derailleur part at my local shop”
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye...
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye is this weekend. Is the black piece another attempt at the canyon breakaway helmet, is it just a fancy sunglass holder, maybe aero? Couldn't find a great photo but its odd looking.
"Among the highlights of the collection are the Centric RC MIPS and Cadence RC MIPS helmets, two models already established within the SCOTT range but...
"Among the highlights of the collection are the Centric RC MIPS and Cadence RC MIPS helmets, two models already established within the SCOTT range but updated to remain the brand's reference for competitive use.
Both models feature the MIPS protection system, designed to reduce the rotational forces transmitted to the brain during oblique impacts. They also include a specific goggle holder (Centric RC only) and features designed to maximize aerodynamic performance."
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.And four major DH teams on gearboxes.Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…Let’s see the downvote...
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.
And four major DH teams on gearboxes.
Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…
Let’s see the downvote of simple facts from the derailleur cabal.
“But I can buy a derailleur part at my local shop”
This is my last post on this, I don't really want to derail anymore than I have, but I think you need to consider more than just the technical aspects here. There are issues with the technical stuff, but business and user experience are just as, if not more, important when you consider adoption of new innovations (any innovation, not just gearboxes).
As a user, if I have a Pinion gearbox fail or need service, that means it has to be removed from the bike and replaced. Who is doing that? How long am I going to be out of a bike? You scoff at the idea of being able to buy a rear mech anywhere, but this is a valid thing. It's the same reason you probably won't see widespread OEM adoption of Brembo brakes, no one carries pads in the US, which means OE spec buyers have to order them from Europe, wait around, etc. Things like this matter when people are releasing products. It's even more complicated because you can't just bolt whatever you find anywhere laying around, it has to match the mounting from Pinion. Brands won't adopt something that introduces this level of inconvenience on the user, because the average mountain biker doesn't want to deal with it.
The business issues are more significant. They have to consider things like scaling, can Pinion produce a reliable product across their entire lineup to match manufacturing scaling? Will production remain reliable and consistent? Can shops be trained at scale on how to iron out issues, debug things, etc for regular users? Can Pinion manage service across our entire lineup? What is going to happen if Pinion, in an effort to match demand, drops quality control and hundreds or thousands of defective gearboxes go out (this has happened in the bike industry before)? This isn't a suspension fork anyone can replace, the only thing they can replace it with is another Pinion gearbox, which now has to be distributed and replaced across thousands of bikes worldwide or the bikes are bricked. You also have to consider that large brands have group bundles they buy from manufacturers for OEM builds, Pinion doesn't have this relationship.
There is also pricing to consider. There are current drivetrain options from cheap up to obscenely expensive. Frame designers can design one frame that works with all of those, from cheap to expensive, same mold/jigs. With gearboxes, the bottom end from Pinion costs substantially more, which either means putting low grade components on lower tier bike builds to compensate or raising the cost. You see the comments on Pinkbike, we all do, everyone complains about how much new bikes costs every time anything is released. This would just aggravate that.
This applies to all innovations across the bike industry. It's the reason you see smaller brands adopting more innovating technology rather than big players, it's also why a lot of products are hamstrung or perform worse, because things like long term maintenance, availability, business and support at scale matter.
@dwhere you're better off starting new threads for new topics. tech rumors and long-form threads aren't very efficient these days
For what it's worth: I'd still rather have all my tech rumors in one place instead of having to subscribe to a new thread for every new rumor.
The current concept of one, singular annual tech rumors thread would work beautifully well if everyone just stuck to posting actual tech news and rumors.
The problem is the weirdos talking themselves in circles, posting e-bike content (-for which there is a separate thread) or starting the 78th discussion on the feasibility of gearboxes. Maybe, what this thread needs is a more hands-on approach to moderation and a more aggressive policy around deleting off-topic posts and comments.
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so...
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so the gears break in. I wonder if there's a reason that Pinion doesn't pre break-in their gearboxes before shipping them out. It would likely make the consumer experience much better.
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for...
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for being a tech rumors thread.
Where did I say I don't want a future world with gearboxes? In fact the opposite is true, I just want to make it better.
It's like how blind patriotism without any drive to improve the nation is just nationalism. Claiming that current gearboxes are the pinnacle of possible engineering and development is flat out wrong. I want gearboxes to be better so they are part of our future world.
There are some pretty tough engineering challenges that need to be overcome before gearboxes can find their way into mainstream pedal MTBs.They pretty much have to...
There are some pretty tough engineering challenges that need to be overcome before gearboxes can find their way into mainstream pedal MTBs.
They pretty much have to be fully enclosed, as lubricated gears at BB height would never survive otherwise. That's a lot of material to form that enclosure. Perhaps some use of really tough fiber-filled thermo-plastics could offset some of this weight, but the GB is also the bash guard, and there are a lot of internal stresses that the shell has to handle.
Due to material properties of even the most exotic metals, the gears really can't get much smaller, so the GBs, particularly ones that cover 500+% range will inevitably have to remain pretty large. This will keep weight up both for the gears and the shell.
Use of roller chains or belts instead of gears inside the GB would likely vastly increase the size of the GB, to the point that you couldn't fit it in any realistic frame. I doubt you could get away with a smaller pitch chain than we already use, so imagine a pair of 12-speed 10-50 cassettes in a box at the BB.
Gear-on-gear friction is generally higher than a clean roller-chain, and the fact that GB-systems still need either a chain or a belt to complete the drivetrain anyway will never let them compete on efficiency.
For the enduro crowd with high pivots, I'm curious if a different sort of gearbox could be had with an elevated chainring. Like the new Demo, but with a gearbox in place of the second chain. Does anyone know if this has been tried? There are a fair number of dual-chain frames out there, so perhaps this is an opportunity for innovation.
Effigear had or has the option of a nonconcentric output. Cavaliere bikes used it in the past. As for two cassettes in a box, you actually need...
Effigear had or has the option of a nonconcentric output. Cavaliere bikes used it in the past.
As for two cassettes in a box, you actually need like two 11-25 cassettes to get 516% of range if you run them "back to front" like in the shimano patent. Two 10-50 cassettes, besides definitely not fitting, would give you 2500 % of range. That's a bit much.
Sorry, I didn't think through the gear ratio carefully, but even so, a pair of 10-25 cassettes in a box would be huge. It's hard to imagine a derailleur inside the box, so maybe 12 chains or belts, and a way to determine which drives the output shaft. I think conventional will win there.
Unfortunately yes
Can we rename this thread and make a new rumors and tech one? This one is tainted now.
Bike industry surprises everyone with new tech.
Forum discusses its innovative nature and implications.
Members start complaining about the relevance.
Rinse and repeat.
Curious to see if anyone does a SB160 switch infinity vs 6finity comparison video or write up. Hopefully a credible YouTuber/publication has something in the works.
I know for a fact that a dealer near me is testing the new bike currently fwiw. Comparison to SB160 highly likely also.
When will we get non concentric ebike motors?!?
The real question!
Long time lurker… longer than I’ve been an ‘official’ member…
Phoenix local here… DH tires. Cushcore.. and a Neo Shock.
I ride a 2023 Rocky Mountain Altitude and the Neo- has been an absolute game changer for me. I pedal a lot.. and it has made my enduro into a ‘trail-duro’ it’s been a huge innovation for me. DH tires and cushcore so I don’t get stranded in the desert heat and can bash the rocks back.. Neo to pedal all day. I’d recommend it for the type of riding I have out the front door from the house.
I think it’s important to remember in the tech rumors forum that we all have dope bikes, tailored specifically for where we ride, and that it’s never the same everywhere for everyone and that minion DHF is still the best tire ever always
Most people I pedal with are on either dh or dd casing tires out here in Alberta. The Rockies are not kind to weak tires.
my attempt at a palete cleanser to get this forum back on track. Scott XC team is wearing some new interesting looking helmets. Caught my eye is this weekend. Is the black piece another attempt at the canyon breakaway helmet, is it just a fancy sunglass holder, maybe aero? Couldn't find a great photo but its odd looking.
"Among the highlights of the collection are the Centric RC MIPS and Cadence RC MIPS helmets, two models already established within the SCOTT range but updated to remain the brand's reference for competitive use.
Both models feature the MIPS protection system, designed to reduce the rotational forces transmitted to the brain during oblique impacts. They also include a specific goggle holder (Centric RC only) and features designed to maximize aerodynamic performance."
Source: https://en.brujulabike.com/the-scott-sram-team-debuts-new-gear-shoes-an…
Let's not forget 2nd place mens overall for enduro world cup is currently on a gearbox belt drive bike - gearboxes are coming for pedal bikes too people.
Idk how anyone in their right mind defends a derailleur. Seems absurdly obvious that a gearbox will soon be the better option for most long travel applications. It will start with ebikes and continue to make its way to DH/Enduro/Trail.. XC might be a while.
An encased system with the weight at the BB is going to beat an exposed system hanging off the rear wheel.
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so the gears break in. I wonder if there's a reason that Pinion doesn't pre break-in their gearboxes before shipping them out. It would likely make the consumer experience much better.
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for being a tech rumors thread.
People have been saying gearboxes are the future for what, a decade now or more? I think they are really cool and innovative, but they aren't going to see widespread adoption or replacement of current drivetrains.
They are heavier and less efficient, the frame also has to be built around it, which means if you don't want it for some reason, that frame is out for you. They are more complicated to maintain, shops don't have the expertise to deal with them widely across regions, and do the smaller brands like Pinion have the facility to deal with large scale service/warranty from big brands? These larger brands like Specialized won't adopt stuff unless this scaling exists because it blows back on them if there are issues. The supply chain also doesn't exist for shops.
At a time when bikes are already way too expensive, it just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder to maintain/fix, more expensive option that you have to use with your frame and no one has parts for. All to solve what exactly? Broken rear mechs?
I think they are cool, I'd ride one if there was a bike I was interested in, I also think the traditional drivetrains are kinda meh and at the limit of innovation. The issue is that gearboxes present more problems than they solve at a large scale, problems that have existed since the beginning and probably can't be engineered out.
I swear this is SRAM propaganda:
"It just doesn't make sense to add a more complex, harder-to-maintain, more expensive option that's locked to your frame and that no one has parts for."
More complex to maintain? The Pinion service interval is 6,200 miles — people race entire seasons without touching their gearbox. Meanwhile derailleur drivetrains need constant adjustment and eat consumables, especially on ebikes.
Gearboxes will take over ebikes within a few years — the motor negates the efficiency loss, the weight is low and centered, and ebike torque destroys conventional drivetrains anyway. DH won't be far behind (less unsprung mass, nothing to smash on rocks). Enduro and trail will lag, but they'll follow.
This isn't an if, it's a when. I don't get the loyalty to derailleurs.
Things break. This isn't an uncommon theme among mechanical things. Just because some work for the service interval doesn't mean that every one leaving the factory will. When you function on the scale of these larger brands, these things become a problem and a consideration. I can go into any LBS and buy a rear mech almost anywhere in the world, how do you deal with that with gearboxes when something fails or needs replacement? Consider this across 10s of thousands of bikes and you start to see the problem.
There's also a huge difference between loyalty to rear mechs and seeing why gearboxes won't see widespread adoption, so don't beat up strawmen. I am not loyal to derailleurs, I just understand why gearboxes will not see widespread adoption for pedal bikes. eBikes are another story.
$$$
Rear brake adapter with a built in Mass Damper holder.
Try 25 years. Ever since the first Rohloff hub integrated frames that Nicolai built.
I agree that I don’t think they will see widespread popularity, but the key ingredient to their design is how tough and low maintenance they are. All you really have to do is change the oil. Anecdotal example is a friend of mine who has an Archibald. Hasn’t had to do anything to that gearbox, and he’s been pounding it for two years
The benefits go beyond just a broken rear derailleur. No more clutching that contributes to suspension action, and there’s a lot of sprung weight to deal with back there. A rear mech can also potentially go in your spokes, or break your frame.
You say it doesn’t make sense, but a bigger company is going to produce what they think will sell. GT tried it back in the day, and it didn’t sell. Tech has come a long way since then…
Gearboxes, the “fusion energy” of MTB.
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao or whatever they are called have a CVT gearbox using two electric motors. That kind of a "gearbox" (integrated variable transmission to be precise) is wholly incompatible with bikes that do not have batteries.
The only viable gearbox option covering both ebikes and bikes is the Pinion which is, functionally (speaking in volumes), non existent in both camps.
As @Shinook and @Uncle Cliffy have said, the future has been promised for years now with nothing happening. Same as the year of the Linux. Except there Microsoft is shitting the bed so bad Linux is actually becoming a good option.
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.
And four major DH teams on gearboxes.
Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…
Let’s see the downvote of simple facts from the derailleur cabal.
“But I can buy a derailleur part at my local shop”
I tried everyone. ZSCS ruined it in less than 1 hour. Back to your shit regularly schedule programing,
@dwhere you're better off starting new threads for new topics. tech rumors and long-form threads aren't very efficient these days
This is my last post on this, I don't really want to derail anymore than I have, but I think you need to consider more than just the technical aspects here. There are issues with the technical stuff, but business and user experience are just as, if not more, important when you consider adoption of new innovations (any innovation, not just gearboxes).
As a user, if I have a Pinion gearbox fail or need service, that means it has to be removed from the bike and replaced. Who is doing that? How long am I going to be out of a bike? You scoff at the idea of being able to buy a rear mech anywhere, but this is a valid thing. It's the same reason you probably won't see widespread OEM adoption of Brembo brakes, no one carries pads in the US, which means OE spec buyers have to order them from Europe, wait around, etc. Things like this matter when people are releasing products. It's even more complicated because you can't just bolt whatever you find anywhere laying around, it has to match the mounting from Pinion. Brands won't adopt something that introduces this level of inconvenience on the user, because the average mountain biker doesn't want to deal with it.
The business issues are more significant. They have to consider things like scaling, can Pinion produce a reliable product across their entire lineup to match manufacturing scaling? Will production remain reliable and consistent? Can shops be trained at scale on how to iron out issues, debug things, etc for regular users? Can Pinion manage service across our entire lineup? What is going to happen if Pinion, in an effort to match demand, drops quality control and hundreds or thousands of defective gearboxes go out (this has happened in the bike industry before)? This isn't a suspension fork anyone can replace, the only thing they can replace it with is another Pinion gearbox, which now has to be distributed and replaced across thousands of bikes worldwide or the bikes are bricked. You also have to consider that large brands have group bundles they buy from manufacturers for OEM builds, Pinion doesn't have this relationship.
There is also pricing to consider. There are current drivetrain options from cheap up to obscenely expensive. Frame designers can design one frame that works with all of those, from cheap to expensive, same mold/jigs. With gearboxes, the bottom end from Pinion costs substantially more, which either means putting low grade components on lower tier bike builds to compensate or raising the cost. You see the comments on Pinkbike, we all do, everyone complains about how much new bikes costs every time anything is released. This would just aggravate that.
This applies to all innovations across the bike industry. It's the reason you see smaller brands adopting more innovating technology rather than big players, it's also why a lot of products are hamstrung or perform worse, because things like long term maintenance, availability, business and support at scale matter.
For what it's worth: I'd still rather have all my tech rumors in one place instead of having to subscribe to a new thread for every new rumor.
The current concept of one, singular annual tech rumors thread would work beautifully well if everyone just stuck to posting actual tech news and rumors.
The problem is the weirdos talking themselves in circles, posting e-bike content (-for which there is a separate thread) or starting the 78th discussion on the feasibility of gearboxes. Maybe, what this thread needs is a more hands-on approach to moderation and a more aggressive policy around deleting off-topic posts and comments.
Where did I say I don't want a future world with gearboxes? In fact the opposite is true, I just want to make it better.
It's like how blind patriotism without any drive to improve the nation is just nationalism. Claiming that current gearboxes are the pinnacle of possible engineering and development is flat out wrong. I want gearboxes to be better so they are part of our future world.
Sorry, I didn't think through the gear ratio carefully, but even so, a pair of 10-25 cassettes in a box would be huge. It's hard to imagine a derailleur inside the box, so maybe 12 chains or belts, and a way to determine which drives the output shaft. I think conventional will win there.
sl bikes are OUT
high power tq sl bikes are IN
internal range extenders are IN
32" from the big t are IN
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