Shimano brakes have been bombproof for me. So easy to bleed and can even get them feeling fresh with a lever bleed. Also a big fan of the on/off feel while running Koolstop sintered pads and 203 Icetechs. In 6 years of running SLX brakes (which do about 150-200 rides a year), I've broken one lever and encountered a leaky calliper that needed replacing once. My ownership and riding experience have only been positive.
I've tried and liked RSCs, but I run Shimano drivetrains and like the integration without having to buy matchmakers. Put SLX/XT/RSCs on my bike and I'm happy.
What was the part number for the new brake pads that were compatible with the old 4-piston XTs? supposed to not rattle as much or something? Can't find a definitive answer
With many of the GR4 color options on backorder for 4+ weeks (confirmed with a retailer yesterday), I am thinking about trying something different - has...
With many of the GR4 color options on backorder for 4+ weeks (confirmed with a retailer yesterday), I am thinking about trying something different - has anyone tried to use a larger cam roller in the T3 or T4 levers? I've read that swapping the roller with a 8/9mm bearing reduces the dead stroke quite a bit.
With many of the GR4 color options on backorder for 4+ weeks (confirmed with a retailer yesterday), I am thinking about trying something different - has...
With many of the GR4 color options on backorder for 4+ weeks (confirmed with a retailer yesterday), I am thinking about trying something different - has anyone tried to use a larger cam roller in the T3 or T4 levers? I've read that swapping the roller with a 8/9mm bearing reduces the dead stroke quite a bit.
I’ve got two questions for all you Shimano XT users: - What persistent issues have you experienced in the past? - What aspects of the brakes have you...
I’ve got two questions for all you Shimano XT users:
- What persistent issues have you experienced in the past?
- What aspects of the brakes have you enjoyed?
I’ve been comparing the new XT 4-piston brakes (M8200) against the previous XT 4-piston brakes (M8100). There is a lot of similarities between the two, which begs the question, “should you buy the new brakes if you're happily riding the previous gen?” That’s what I’m hoping to figure out as part of this review. I'm open to any suggestions or things people want answered!
Main downside is the self-contaminating calipers. Spoke with Shimano and they had 'never heard of the issue,' which made me laugh out loud. I think all Shimano's ceramic piston brakes are prone to leaking. In the shop, I see their road calipers contaminate pads at 10x the rate of any other reputable brake manufacturer (sorry Promax, you don't make the cut). They don't leak during a pressure test, but leak during storage. If your current XT brakes aren't leaking, I don't see any reason to try the new ones, unless the new lever ergonomics are really much better.
Lever ergonomics is ok for 81xx series. I'm currently using them with Sram Motive brakes.
I’ve got two questions for all you Shimano XT users: - What persistent issues have you experienced in the past? - What aspects of the brakes have you...
I’ve got two questions for all you Shimano XT users:
- What persistent issues have you experienced in the past?
- What aspects of the brakes have you enjoyed?
I’ve been comparing the new XT 4-piston brakes (M8200) against the previous XT 4-piston brakes (M8100). There is a lot of similarities between the two, which begs the question, “should you buy the new brakes if you're happily riding the previous gen?” That’s what I’m hoping to figure out as part of this review. I'm open to any suggestions or things people want answered!
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues.
The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull the lever twice in quick succession, it'll grab at a different point. My experience is every set of Shimano brakes I've ever gotten on does this, but the people who don't experience it use a different braking technique than those that do. If you are on/off quickly a lot, then you'll notice it, if you tend to make longer single pull drags or have longer gaps between braking, you won't notice it.
I've had some that leaked around the pistons. I never had cracked pistons but know folks who have.
The fluid turns black very quickly. According to the rep at Shimano I spoke with, this isn't normal, but I've again yet to bleed a set that this hadn't happened to. Whether this means degraded performance, I have no idea.
Shimano customer support is nonexistent. Their lack of available seal kits means you dispose of them instead of rebuilding them if there is a problem, which is wasteful.
Power is very mid compared to other, more modern options (Hope, Intend, Radic, Maven). There is worse, but there is a lot better also.
I've had sets where the brake lever began to flop up and down, there would be a noticeable vertical play in the lever to the point it was bouncing around under your finger while you were riding. I gather the bushing supporting the lever blades wears out and it develops this flop, but admittedly I've only had this issue on prior gen M8020 levers. You have to run them a while for this to develop and it seems inconsistent, some do it, some don't, but still it's annoying to have suspended brake levers and feels cheap.
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues. The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull...
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues.
The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull the lever twice in quick succession, it'll grab at a different point. My experience is every set of Shimano brakes I've ever gotten on does this, but the people who don't experience it use a different braking technique than those that do. If you are on/off quickly a lot, then you'll notice it, if you tend to make longer single pull drags or have longer gaps between braking, you won't notice it.
I've had some that leaked around the pistons. I never had cracked pistons but know folks who have.
The fluid turns black very quickly. According to the rep at Shimano I spoke with, this isn't normal, but I've again yet to bleed a set that this hadn't happened to. Whether this means degraded performance, I have no idea.
Shimano customer support is nonexistent. Their lack of available seal kits means you dispose of them instead of rebuilding them if there is a problem, which is wasteful.
Power is very mid compared to other, more modern options (Hope, Intend, Radic, Maven). There is worse, but there is a lot better also.
I've had sets where the brake lever began to flop up and down, there would be a noticeable vertical play in the lever to the point it was bouncing around under your finger while you were riding. I gather the bushing supporting the lever blades wears out and it develops this flop, but admittedly I've only had this issue on prior gen M8020 levers. You have to run them a while for this to develop and it seems inconsistent, some do it, some don't, but still it's annoying to have suspended brake levers and feels cheap.
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality rebuild kits that can be trusted?
As for the colour of the fluid, I once bled a set of lower end Shimanos only because they hadn't been done for three years and a few thousand kilometres – they still worked fine otherwise. The fluid came out black but after the bleed they didn't feel noticeably different. It's possible the performance of the entire system was degraded, but they still felt fine and the visual condition of the fluid didn't seem to have much of an effect on the outcome.
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues. The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull...
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues.
The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull the lever twice in quick succession, it'll grab at a different point. My experience is every set of Shimano brakes I've ever gotten on does this, but the people who don't experience it use a different braking technique than those that do. If you are on/off quickly a lot, then you'll notice it, if you tend to make longer single pull drags or have longer gaps between braking, you won't notice it.
I've had some that leaked around the pistons. I never had cracked pistons but know folks who have.
The fluid turns black very quickly. According to the rep at Shimano I spoke with, this isn't normal, but I've again yet to bleed a set that this hadn't happened to. Whether this means degraded performance, I have no idea.
Shimano customer support is nonexistent. Their lack of available seal kits means you dispose of them instead of rebuilding them if there is a problem, which is wasteful.
Power is very mid compared to other, more modern options (Hope, Intend, Radic, Maven). There is worse, but there is a lot better also.
I've had sets where the brake lever began to flop up and down, there would be a noticeable vertical play in the lever to the point it was bouncing around under your finger while you were riding. I gather the bushing supporting the lever blades wears out and it develops this flop, but admittedly I've only had this issue on prior gen M8020 levers. You have to run them a while for this to develop and it seems inconsistent, some do it, some don't, but still it's annoying to have suspended brake levers and feels cheap.
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality...
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality rebuild kits that can be trusted?
As for the colour of the fluid, I once bled a set of lower end Shimanos only because they hadn't been done for three years and a few thousand kilometres – they still worked fine otherwise. The fluid came out black but after the bleed they didn't feel noticeably different. It's possible the performance of the entire system was degraded, but they still felt fine and the visual condition of the fluid didn't seem to have much of an effect on the outcome.
On rebuilds, Magura is the same way. I don't get it either, but it's not something I'm a fan of with them. For an industry so heavily invested in the environment, it seems silly to me brands like Shimano (and there are others) are so content to just tell people to throw stuff out if it fails and replace it. Maybe there is a technical or liability reason, but I'm not a fan of this when brands like SRAM, Hope, Hayes, etc all provide rebuild kits for levers and calipers. In the grand scheme of things we throw out, it's minor, I get it, but it just seems wrong to me when there are alternatives.
On the fluid, I'm not sure if the coloring matters or not. I probably wouldn't have made a comment about it except I had a Shimano rep directly tell me it wasn't normal. They told me to warranty them and throw them out. I didn't and they worked fine, so who knows what the right answer is. I've seen it go black after 1-2 rides and most sets I've seen had the same thing happen. I can't make sense of whatever it is and agree it's probably a non-issue, but Shimano says otherwise.
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues. The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull...
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues.
The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull the lever twice in quick succession, it'll grab at a different point. My experience is every set of Shimano brakes I've ever gotten on does this, but the people who don't experience it use a different braking technique than those that do. If you are on/off quickly a lot, then you'll notice it, if you tend to make longer single pull drags or have longer gaps between braking, you won't notice it.
I've had some that leaked around the pistons. I never had cracked pistons but know folks who have.
The fluid turns black very quickly. According to the rep at Shimano I spoke with, this isn't normal, but I've again yet to bleed a set that this hadn't happened to. Whether this means degraded performance, I have no idea.
Shimano customer support is nonexistent. Their lack of available seal kits means you dispose of them instead of rebuilding them if there is a problem, which is wasteful.
Power is very mid compared to other, more modern options (Hope, Intend, Radic, Maven). There is worse, but there is a lot better also.
I've had sets where the brake lever began to flop up and down, there would be a noticeable vertical play in the lever to the point it was bouncing around under your finger while you were riding. I gather the bushing supporting the lever blades wears out and it develops this flop, but admittedly I've only had this issue on prior gen M8020 levers. You have to run them a while for this to develop and it seems inconsistent, some do it, some don't, but still it's annoying to have suspended brake levers and feels cheap.
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality...
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality rebuild kits that can be trusted?
As for the colour of the fluid, I once bled a set of lower end Shimanos only because they hadn't been done for three years and a few thousand kilometres – they still worked fine otherwise. The fluid came out black but after the bleed they didn't feel noticeably different. It's possible the performance of the entire system was degraded, but they still felt fine and the visual condition of the fluid didn't seem to have much of an effect on the outcome.
I've used the phenolic caliper piston kits from Exnavi (found on Amazon/ALi) without issues, and indeed they improved brake feel. Less retraction than the ceramic pistons, leading to a sharper bite point, and importantly, no wandering bite point. I did try the Ti MC pistons but those were bad. Undersized which allowed the piston to rock and lose seal, generally at times when you didn't want em to. Gave em a go after one unit swelled up and began locking in the MC bore (Ala Sram) and the other nipped a P cup. After all the issues I walked away from Shimano brakes. When they work they work really well, but when they crap the bed they leave a big ol stain. The new gen seems to have acquiesced to phenolics on all models, but the plastic MC pistons remain. That keeps em off my bike parts diet.
FWIW, regarding the oil colouring, Sram's R and RS brakes, where the parts are painted on the outside, have a gray oil when you do a bleed after a while, while RSC and above brakes (not sure how that relates to the new bronze and silve rmonikers) are anodized, which means the master bore is also anodized and thus doesn't wear as much as the raw one in the case of painted outsides. The gray colouring of the oil are aluminium wear particles.
Video says Maven Bronze have 4x18mm, while https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/db-mvn-brz-a1 says it's 2x18 and 2x19.5.Who's correct on this one?Also Sram spare parts catalog says: 2 11.5018.058.001 DISC BRAKE CALIPER...
I believe the bronze was the same as ultimate and silver with 2x18 and 2x19.5 and the base is 4x18. But I think they stopped making the bronze and replaced it with the base.
On the topic of Shimano brakes- I have found a setup that I feel is worth sharing. Match a TRP DHR EVO caliper, a Shimano brake line and a Shimano lever of your choice. Clean fluid, more firm bite point, shorter lever throw, consistency through the life of the pads, and more power. I have done this twice now, one with XT and the other with Deore lever bodies and they feel the same.
Video says Maven Bronze have 4x18mm, while https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/db-mvn-brz-a1 says it's 2x18 and 2x19.5.Who's correct on this one?Also Sram spare parts catalog says: 2 11.5018.058.001 DISC BRAKE CALIPER...
I believe the bronze was the same as ultimate and silver with 2x18 and 2x19.5 and the base is 4x18. But I think they stopped making...
I believe the bronze was the same as ultimate and silver with 2x18 and 2x19.5 and the base is 4x18. But I think they stopped making the bronze and replaced it with the base.
The part about the calipers/pistons is correct. Maven bronze has the same caliper as silver/ult/expert and based is 2x18. This would be the first I'm hearing about maven bronze being discontinued, last I checked (2 days ago) you could still order up a set of bronze brakes, but maybe that's just existing stock. Fwiw, this move would make sense, the bronze/base cost is very close and the base lever action does feel pretty damn good (smooth/light).
Cross-post from RideMonkey: I finally got around to trying LikeWater with one of my Mavens that needed a bleed. The viscosity difference from Maxima mineral oil is massive. Very easy to degas and dislodge bubbles. I did a cup (Pinner) & syringe fluid replacement pulling down from the cup, pausing after 1 syringe full to empty the old oil out and refilling the cup. Piston advancement and retraction (piston massage) seemed smoother and easier. Actual lever feel is about the same, maybe a *hair* smoother. No obvious leaks or change in feel after a couple rides. I'll probably swap over to this for the rest of my quiver as my brakes feel like they need a bleed.
The hope love has really started to come out here. I'm probably going to get them next, messed with some tech 4 v4s braided hose the other day and really liked the way they feel, super smooth but positive enough on the bite.
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems a little inconsistent. The rear brake gets weird sometimes, where I have to throw the lever in quick succession a few times because the contact point is suddenly right in the beginning of the stroke and it feels wooden (that means air in the system, right?).
Bought that AliExpress bleed kit after it received some high praise in the Tech Rumours thread. But now I'm trying to figure out which oil to get. Standard choice seems to be Shimano SM-DB-OIL, but I randomly found a reddit thread where they recommend lower viscosity oil, Redline Likewater in particular.
So, which one should I get (and why) and how much of it? Assuming the standard Shimano stuff is in there, do I need to flush everything out if I want to try a different option?
Also, do I go lever bleed or gravity bleed?
Bonus question: my brand new XT brakes (the now older model, but came on a new bike and were ridden like 10 times by now) had a wandering bite point in the rear pretty much from the beginning. Do I even bother trying to fix it? Seems to be a hopeless endeavor from what I've read.
Bonus question 2: I just remembered that some bike shop person in Whistler claimed to have broken brakes while trying to bleed them?! If that's an actual risk, is it more like 0,5 % or 50 %?
The hope love has really started to come out here. I'm probably going to get them next, messed with some tech 4 v4s braided hose the...
The hope love has really started to come out here. I'm probably going to get them next, messed with some tech 4 v4s braided hose the other day and really liked the way they feel, super smooth but positive enough on the bite.
Do it. I've just upgraded my old T3 V4 braided line pair on the DH rig to T4 levers and oh boy, what a neat and relatively inexpensive upgrade.
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems...
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems a little inconsistent. The rear brake gets weird sometimes, where I have to throw the lever in quick succession a few times because the contact point is suddenly right in the beginning of the stroke and it feels wooden (that means air in the system, right?).
Bought that AliExpress bleed kit after it received some high praise in the Tech Rumours thread. But now I'm trying to figure out which oil to get. Standard choice seems to be Shimano SM-DB-OIL, but I randomly found a reddit thread where they recommend lower viscosity oil, Redline Likewater in particular.
So, which one should I get (and why) and how much of it? Assuming the standard Shimano stuff is in there, do I need to flush everything out if I want to try a different option?
Also, do I go lever bleed or gravity bleed?
Bonus question: my brand new XT brakes (the now older model, but came on a new bike and were ridden like 10 times by now) had a wandering bite point in the rear pretty much from the beginning. Do I even bother trying to fix it? Seems to be a hopeless endeavor from what I've read.
Bonus question 2: I just remembered that some bike shop person in Whistler claimed to have broken brakes while trying to bleed them?! If that's an actual risk, is it more like 0,5 % or 50 %?
My recommedation is to go for LikeWater or Putolines HPX R 2.5 fork oil. Both help massively with the wandering bite point issue and are better if you ride at colder temps.
Gravity bleed and lever bleed after it is good, I’ve always used a shimano cup at the lever and a syringe at the caliper.
Yeah you need to flush the all of the old brake fluid out if you change fluids.
I guess its possible to somehow break your brakes while bleeding but highly unlikely, its an really easy process, especially with Shimano.
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems...
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems a little inconsistent. The rear brake gets weird sometimes, where I have to throw the lever in quick succession a few times because the contact point is suddenly right in the beginning of the stroke and it feels wooden (that means air in the system, right?).
Bought that AliExpress bleed kit after it received some high praise in the Tech Rumours thread. But now I'm trying to figure out which oil to get. Standard choice seems to be Shimano SM-DB-OIL, but I randomly found a reddit thread where they recommend lower viscosity oil, Redline Likewater in particular.
So, which one should I get (and why) and how much of it? Assuming the standard Shimano stuff is in there, do I need to flush everything out if I want to try a different option?
Also, do I go lever bleed or gravity bleed?
Bonus question: my brand new XT brakes (the now older model, but came on a new bike and were ridden like 10 times by now) had a wandering bite point in the rear pretty much from the beginning. Do I even bother trying to fix it? Seems to be a hopeless endeavor from what I've read.
Bonus question 2: I just remembered that some bike shop person in Whistler claimed to have broken brakes while trying to bleed them?! If that's an actual risk, is it more like 0,5 % or 50 %?
Since I saw this one 7 years ago this is how I've bled all my shimano and it has always worked well. I use putoline 2.5W but used to use the normal shimano.
Breaking Shimano brakes during a bleed is easy. You just have to apply pressure to the system, this pushes on the membrane which is then pushed against a pin in the cover of the membrane on the lever. Same issue if you have air in the system and go on a plane.
Its very easy to damage it if you don't know what to look for.
I've had alot of trouble with my Shimano xt brakes- the first set of brakes I've worked on myself. But after a while I've now got them working reasonably well. I'll probably buy the new hope brakes in the next year. A few tips anyway-
- The syndicate bleed guide above is good but I've also always had to do a lever bleed on top of that, with the pads and rotors installed, in order to get acceptable levels of free stroke.
- There are 2 ways in which you can fairly easily break them. The first is by over pressurising the system, IE pushing the pistons back in without a bleed funnel. This can unseat or even puncture a rubber diaphragm inside the lever assembly. This will present as oil leaking out of the end of the lever, and can be fixed quite easily by either repairing the puncture or reseating the diaphragm. The second way they can break is the pistons can crack as they're made of ceramics. You can minimise the chances of this by buying the correct bleed block, but I think they can still crack if you're unlucky.
- I've had to lube and exercise the pistons to get them moving properly. Walk them out (not all the way out), lube with mineral oil and get them moving in unison before cleaning.
What Ali express bleed kit are you using that you've seen recommended?
Thanks everyone, the replies have already been super helpful! Although I'll admit the task seems as daunting as ever.
This is the AliEx kit (gotta switch to your country), bought the 2022 STD variant (box with 10 different connector pieces or whatever they're called). Someone in the Tech Rumors thread even claimed to have seen it used in the DH World Cup pits.
The point with the lever bleed for free throw is interesting! Would that also apply to other brakes? Derailing my own question here, but I've parking lot tested my friends Dominions. Based on reviews alone, I thought they are exactly what I want (super light lever, lots of modulation, strong power), but they feel terrible to me: extremely strong but bite to almost full power within the first 3 mm of lever pull.
So far, my favorites from lever pull have been Hopes, but the lever shape was terrible for my taste. New version seems to mitigate this though, so if I'm ever in the market for new brakes, it's gonne be those (or Maven Base if I find them for super cheap). Anyway, I've been surprisingly happy with the Saints. It was a bit disappointing to get something this "old" on my latest purchase, but so far they do everything I want quite well.
Shimano brakes have been bombproof for me. So easy to bleed and can even get them feeling fresh with a lever bleed. Also a big fan of the on/off feel while running Koolstop sintered pads and 203 Icetechs. In 6 years of running SLX brakes (which do about 150-200 rides a year), I've broken one lever and encountered a leaky calliper that needed replacing once. My ownership and riding experience have only been positive.
I've tried and liked RSCs, but I run Shimano drivetrains and like the integration without having to buy matchmakers. Put SLX/XT/RSCs on my bike and I'm happy.
What was the part number for the new brake pads that were compatible with the old 4-piston XTs? supposed to not rattle as much or something? Can't find a definitive answer
How did you make that work? All I am getting is too little lever and piston movement -> poor seal rollback -> locked wheels.
Work great here?
That being the case - does that mean the EVO blades would fit a Tech 4 lever? I want a more hooked blade.
No, evo blade on tech 4 doesn’t
Tech 4 blade on evo master yes
Main downside is the self-contaminating calipers. Spoke with Shimano and they had 'never heard of the issue,' which made me laugh out loud. I think all Shimano's ceramic piston brakes are prone to leaking. In the shop, I see their road calipers contaminate pads at 10x the rate of any other reputable brake manufacturer (sorry Promax, you don't make the cut). They don't leak during a pressure test, but leak during storage. If your current XT brakes aren't leaking, I don't see any reason to try the new ones, unless the new lever ergonomics are really much better.
Lever ergonomics is ok for 81xx series. I'm currently using them with Sram Motive brakes.
Fresh 612s in the works
Tried lots of Shimano brakes, all the same issues.
The wandering bite point is the biggest one for me. When temps drop below freezing, if you pull the lever twice in quick succession, it'll grab at a different point. My experience is every set of Shimano brakes I've ever gotten on does this, but the people who don't experience it use a different braking technique than those that do. If you are on/off quickly a lot, then you'll notice it, if you tend to make longer single pull drags or have longer gaps between braking, you won't notice it.
I've had some that leaked around the pistons. I never had cracked pistons but know folks who have.
The fluid turns black very quickly. According to the rep at Shimano I spoke with, this isn't normal, but I've again yet to bleed a set that this hadn't happened to. Whether this means degraded performance, I have no idea.
Shimano customer support is nonexistent. Their lack of available seal kits means you dispose of them instead of rebuilding them if there is a problem, which is wasteful.
Power is very mid compared to other, more modern options (Hope, Intend, Radic, Maven). There is worse, but there is a lot better also.
I've had sets where the brake lever began to flop up and down, there would be a noticeable vertical play in the lever to the point it was bouncing around under your finger while you were riding. I gather the bushing supporting the lever blades wears out and it develops this flop, but admittedly I've only had this issue on prior gen M8020 levers. You have to run them a while for this to develop and it seems inconsistent, some do it, some don't, but still it's annoying to have suspended brake levers and feels cheap.
The wandering bite point has always been resolved by using another mineral oil (like Putoline) in my case !
The disposable nature of Shimano brake components is a real head-scratcher and a bit of an anachronism in today's world. Is there anyone doing good quality rebuild kits that can be trusted?
As for the colour of the fluid, I once bled a set of lower end Shimanos only because they hadn't been done for three years and a few thousand kilometres – they still worked fine otherwise. The fluid came out black but after the bleed they didn't feel noticeably different. It's possible the performance of the entire system was degraded, but they still felt fine and the visual condition of the fluid didn't seem to have much of an effect on the outcome.
On rebuilds, Magura is the same way. I don't get it either, but it's not something I'm a fan of with them. For an industry so heavily invested in the environment, it seems silly to me brands like Shimano (and there are others) are so content to just tell people to throw stuff out if it fails and replace it. Maybe there is a technical or liability reason, but I'm not a fan of this when brands like SRAM, Hope, Hayes, etc all provide rebuild kits for levers and calipers. In the grand scheme of things we throw out, it's minor, I get it, but it just seems wrong to me when there are alternatives.
On the fluid, I'm not sure if the coloring matters or not. I probably wouldn't have made a comment about it except I had a Shimano rep directly tell me it wasn't normal. They told me to warranty them and throw them out. I didn't and they worked fine, so who knows what the right answer is. I've seen it go black after 1-2 rides and most sets I've seen had the same thing happen. I can't make sense of whatever it is and agree it's probably a non-issue, but Shimano says otherwise.
I've used the phenolic caliper piston kits from Exnavi (found on Amazon/ALi) without issues, and indeed they improved brake feel. Less retraction than the ceramic pistons, leading to a sharper bite point, and importantly, no wandering bite point. I did try the Ti MC pistons but those were bad. Undersized which allowed the piston to rock and lose seal, generally at times when you didn't want em to. Gave em a go after one unit swelled up and began locking in the MC bore (Ala Sram) and the other nipped a P cup. After all the issues I walked away from Shimano brakes. When they work they work really well, but when they crap the bed they leave a big ol stain. The new gen seems to have acquiesced to phenolics on all models, but the plastic MC pistons remain. That keeps em off my bike parts diet.
FWIW, regarding the oil colouring, Sram's R and RS brakes, where the parts are painted on the outside, have a gray oil when you do a bleed after a while, while RSC and above brakes (not sure how that relates to the new bronze and silve rmonikers) are anodized, which means the master bore is also anodized and thus doesn't wear as much as the raw one in the case of painted outsides. The gray colouring of the oil are aluminium wear particles.
@lucacometti did a Maven vs. Motive comparison for us! Maybe a bit of obvious results, but still interesting nonetheless. #theforumknowsfirst
Video says Maven Bronze have 4x18mm, while https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/db-mvn-brz-a1 says it's 2x18 and 2x19.5.
Who's correct on this one?
Also Sram spare parts catalog says:
2 11.5018.058.001 DISC BRAKE CALIPER PISTON KIT - (INCLUDES 2-19.5MM, 2-18MM CALIPER PISTONS, SEALS, O-RINGS) - MAVEN ULT/SLV/BRZ (A1)
2 11.5018.058.002 DISC BRAKE CALIPER PISTON KIT - (INCLUDES 4-18MM CALIPER PISTONS, SEALS, O-RINGS) - MAVEN BASE (A1)\
(I know, SRAM naming is also confusing for me)
I believe the bronze was the same as ultimate and silver with 2x18 and 2x19.5 and the base is 4x18. But I think they stopped making the bronze and replaced it with the base.
On the topic of Shimano brakes- I have found a setup that I feel is worth sharing. Match a TRP DHR EVO caliper, a Shimano brake line and a Shimano lever of your choice. Clean fluid, more firm bite point, shorter lever throw, consistency through the life of the pads, and more power. I have done this twice now, one with XT and the other with Deore lever bodies and they feel the same.
The part about the calipers/pistons is correct. Maven bronze has the same caliper as silver/ult/expert and based is 2x18. This would be the first I'm hearing about maven bronze being discontinued, last I checked (2 days ago) you could still order up a set of bronze brakes, but maybe that's just existing stock. Fwiw, this move would make sense, the bronze/base cost is very close and the base lever action does feel pretty damn good (smooth/light).
Cross-post from RideMonkey: I finally got around to trying LikeWater with one of my Mavens that needed a bleed. The viscosity difference from Maxima mineral oil is massive. Very easy to degas and dislodge bubbles. I did a cup (Pinner) & syringe fluid replacement pulling down from the cup, pausing after 1 syringe full to empty the old oil out and refilling the cup. Piston advancement and retraction (piston massage) seemed smoother and easier. Actual lever feel is about the same, maybe a *hair* smoother. No obvious leaks or change in feel after a couple rides. I'll probably swap over to this for the rest of my quiver as my brakes feel like they need a bleed.
The hope love has really started to come out here. I'm probably going to get them next, messed with some tech 4 v4s braided hose the other day and really liked the way they feel, super smooth but positive enough on the bite.
Can I come into this thread with a question? I would like to attempt my first brake bleed (ever) on a Shimano Saint, since it seems a little inconsistent. The rear brake gets weird sometimes, where I have to throw the lever in quick succession a few times because the contact point is suddenly right in the beginning of the stroke and it feels wooden (that means air in the system, right?).
Bought that AliExpress bleed kit after it received some high praise in the Tech Rumours thread. But now I'm trying to figure out which oil to get. Standard choice seems to be Shimano SM-DB-OIL, but I randomly found a reddit thread where they recommend lower viscosity oil, Redline Likewater in particular.
So, which one should I get (and why) and how much of it? Assuming the standard Shimano stuff is in there, do I need to flush everything out if I want to try a different option?
Also, do I go lever bleed or gravity bleed?
Bonus question: my brand new XT brakes (the now older model, but came on a new bike and were ridden like 10 times by now) had a wandering bite point in the rear pretty much from the beginning. Do I even bother trying to fix it? Seems to be a hopeless endeavor from what I've read.
Bonus question 2: I just remembered that some bike shop person in Whistler claimed to have broken brakes while trying to bleed them?! If that's an actual risk, is it more like 0,5 % or 50 %?
Do it. I've just upgraded my old T3 V4 braided line pair on the DH rig to T4 levers and oh boy, what a neat and relatively inexpensive upgrade.
My recommedation is to go for LikeWater or Putolines HPX R 2.5 fork oil. Both help massively with the wandering bite point issue and are better if you ride at colder temps.
Gravity bleed and lever bleed after it is good, I’ve always used a shimano cup at the lever and a syringe at the caliper.
Yeah you need to flush the all of the old brake fluid out if you change fluids.
I guess its possible to somehow break your brakes while bleeding but highly unlikely, its an really easy process, especially with Shimano.
Since I saw this one 7 years ago this is how I've bled all my shimano and it has always worked well. I use putoline 2.5W but used to use the normal shimano.
Breaking Shimano brakes during a bleed is easy. You just have to apply pressure to the system, this pushes on the membrane which is then pushed against a pin in the cover of the membrane on the lever. Same issue if you have air in the system and go on a plane.
Its very easy to damage it if you don't know what to look for.
I've had alot of trouble with my Shimano xt brakes- the first set of brakes I've worked on myself. But after a while I've now got them working reasonably well. I'll probably buy the new hope brakes in the next year. A few tips anyway-
- The syndicate bleed guide above is good but I've also always had to do a lever bleed on top of that, with the pads and rotors installed, in order to get acceptable levels of free stroke.
- There are 2 ways in which you can fairly easily break them. The first is by over pressurising the system, IE pushing the pistons back in without a bleed funnel. This can unseat or even puncture a rubber diaphragm inside the lever assembly. This will present as oil leaking out of the end of the lever, and can be fixed quite easily by either repairing the puncture or reseating the diaphragm. The second way they can break is the pistons can crack as they're made of ceramics. You can minimise the chances of this by buying the correct bleed block, but I think they can still crack if you're unlucky.
- I've had to lube and exercise the pistons to get them moving properly. Walk them out (not all the way out), lube with mineral oil and get them moving in unison before cleaning.
What Ali express bleed kit are you using that you've seen recommended?
Thanks everyone, the replies have already been super helpful! Although I'll admit the task seems as daunting as ever.
This is the AliEx kit (gotta switch to your country), bought the 2022 STD variant (box with 10 different connector pieces or whatever they're called). Someone in the Tech Rumors thread even claimed to have seen it used in the DH World Cup pits.
The point with the lever bleed for free throw is interesting! Would that also apply to other brakes? Derailing my own question here, but I've parking lot tested my friends Dominions. Based on reviews alone, I thought they are exactly what I want (super light lever, lots of modulation, strong power), but they feel terrible to me: extremely strong but bite to almost full power within the first 3 mm of lever pull.
So far, my favorites from lever pull have been Hopes, but the lever shape was terrible for my taste. New version seems to mitigate this though, so if I'm ever in the market for new brakes, it's gonne be those (or Maven Base if I find them for super cheap). Anyway, I've been surprisingly happy with the Saints. It was a bit disappointing to get something this "old" on my latest purchase, but so far they do everything I want quite well.
if you want light lever pull, get the intend
I was about to sass you about them never being in stock, but they actually have some available at this moment in time!
Trinity 2.0 black & silver - Intend
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