Someone here had to have predicted DJI's entry into the ebike motor market right?? In hindsight this is the most obvious thing ever. My bold prediction is...
Someone here had to have predicted DJI's entry into the ebike motor market right?? In hindsight this is the most obvious thing ever.
My bold prediction is that Shimano will eventually exit the motor market. A bike component/fishing reel company with the slow Japanese engineering philosophy (which is why I like them for the record) just can't compete with Bosch and DJI in terms of speed or technical/engineering. Same prediction but double for SRAM Powertrain. Raise your hand if you've never seen one of those motors in person.
I think if there's ever a chance for standards to emerge it would be now because Yamaha, supplier to Giant, recently acquired Brose, supplier to Specialized and Sram. If Sram remains in that coalition I imaging them remaining in the e-market , I'd imagine them being the standard bearer with Specialized and Giant getting to take liberties "advance the standard".
With that said it's only a chance, components from a BMW motorcycle can't be bolted into a Honda. Perhaps the biggest companies with their own dealer service networks thrive on differentiation rather than standardization. @Primoz's comparison to modular PC's feels accurate.
Just to nitpick, Yamaha did not acquire Brose, they acquired the ebike business. Brose is a multi billion dollar tier 1 automotive supplier, likely much bigger than Yamaha (guessing the last part).
FWIW in the past it was said that Brose was wiling to modify the drive unit (the casing) to fit a specific manufacturer.
If we look at motorcycles, as @jeff.brines also likes to point out often, there's a lot more integration overall compared to what we have. Bikes are...
If we look at motorcycles, as @jeff.brines also likes to point out often, there's a lot more integration overall compared to what we have. Bikes are a lot more similar to old desktop PCs that are also slowly going the way of the dodo in favour of more specialized, integrated products. I fear bikes will sooner go this way as well as opposed to a standard ebike motor mount. And I mean it when I say bikes above, all bikes, not ebikes.
Even if you had a universal motor mount standard, you'd still need to standardise the battery mount and the control interface (at least let it be handlebar mounted if nothing else) for it to work. A standard motor mount doesn't help you much if you can't fit a battery compatible with the new motor.
Actually, outside of the ebike specific parts, we have way more cross compatibility for parts between brands..
As ebike take more (and more) market share, their development will be the main thing for most bike brands.
Choosing the e-system is a lot of the times more important for sales than suspension kinematics or a dialed geo.
Dji has pointed the direction in terms of performance and form factor and the rest will have to follow.
Already today when I see a Bosch equipped bike with an 800w (fat) battery, it looks outdated .Same goes to the new Levo, new Giant E reign ... When you compare their form factor to Amflow,Unno,Megamo,Forbidden ... it just looks outdated.
For Shimano, I think their problem is the brand culture. They are not a brand that likes to change a main product every 2-3 years , and with e-systems you have to do it in order the stay relevant.
Someone here had to have predicted DJI's entry into the ebike motor market right?? In hindsight this is the most obvious thing ever. My bold prediction is...
Someone here had to have predicted DJI's entry into the ebike motor market right?? In hindsight this is the most obvious thing ever.
My bold prediction is that Shimano will eventually exit the motor market. A bike component/fishing reel company with the slow Japanese engineering philosophy (which is why I like them for the record) just can't compete with Bosch and DJI in terms of speed or technical/engineering. Same prediction but double for SRAM Powertrain. Raise your hand if you've never seen one of those motors in person.
I think if there's ever a chance for standards to emerge it would be now because Yamaha, supplier to Giant, recently acquired Brose, supplier to Specialized...
I think if there's ever a chance for standards to emerge it would be now because Yamaha, supplier to Giant, recently acquired Brose, supplier to Specialized and Sram. If Sram remains in that coalition I imaging them remaining in the e-market , I'd imagine them being the standard bearer with Specialized and Giant getting to take liberties "advance the standard".
With that said it's only a chance, components from a BMW motorcycle can't be bolted into a Honda. Perhaps the biggest companies with their own dealer service networks thrive on differentiation rather than standardization. @Primoz's comparison to modular PC's feels accurate.
I don't think Sram is going to be going towards any standardized e-bike motor mount.
Yes, I don't think there's much chance of much standardization happening. But if any were to occur, this seems like the moment.
There is absolutely zero chance of a single standard emerging, we don't have a standard for seatpost diameter, headsets or bottom brackets, and those share function much more closely than ebikes with light motors, heavy motors, integrated batteries, integrated gearbox, idler, suspension pivot, etc...
For me standardized mounts would likely hold back innovation. It's not just the size of the engine, but also how you orientate it. Then there's the MGUs. Do we want someone who's developed a smaller, lighter motor or MGU not bring it to market because they can't make it work with industry standardised mounts?
If we look at motorcycles, as @jeff.brines also likes to point out often, there's a lot more integration overall compared to what we have. Bikes are...
If we look at motorcycles, as @jeff.brines also likes to point out often, there's a lot more integration overall compared to what we have. Bikes are a lot more similar to old desktop PCs that are also slowly going the way of the dodo in favour of more specialized, integrated products. I fear bikes will sooner go this way as well as opposed to a standard ebike motor mount. And I mean it when I say bikes above, all bikes, not ebikes.
Even if you had a universal motor mount standard, you'd still need to standardise the battery mount and the control interface (at least let it be handlebar mounted if nothing else) for it to work. A standard motor mount doesn't help you much if you can't fit a battery compatible with the new motor.
Actually, outside of the ebike specific parts, we have way more cross compatibility for parts between brands..
I know and I am arguing that based on other industries (and the development over the past few years) this looks like it will reverse and there will be more and more integration.
It was the same with drivetrains and geometries 10 years ago. It will smooth out.
Geometry was under the bike designer's total control though. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out Chris Porter was right all along and almost everyone else had to be led by the nose to where we are today.
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I...
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I...
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I...
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
Try a 2x or 3x drivetrain back to back to a modern 1x12 drivetrain and I'm sure you won't be able to keep saying there is no difference...
Geometry was under the bike designer's total control though. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out Chris Porter was right all along and almost everyone...
Geometry was under the bike designer's total control though. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out Chris Porter was right all along and almost everyone else had to be led by the nose to where we are today.
Correct. Then why don't even 5 year old bikes fit 240 dropper posts? Why are the seat tubes too long?
As for Chris Porter I think we saw that while geometries went towards what the Geometron is, generally they took a step back to something less extreme. We don't have the final state, but still. Not everybody is racing at full tilt.
1 CBF is dummy easy to do with a Horst link. IMO the kinematics have some advantages over the dual link setup.
2 this looked more like a “Mr. Miller we make you custom sample bike” from an Asian factory rather than something that’s about to go to market. Especially considering market conditions at the moment. However id love to be proven wrong, looks like a cool bike!
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I...
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
I don't really want to ride Altus or Sram NX(but I'll still have fun if I do), but I'm with you on the ebike thing. As enthusiasts we care a lot about the best, all the old dudes on class 1 ebikes seem pretty stoked regardless of the drive unit that they're on.
Correct. Then why don't even 5 year old bikes fit 240 dropper posts? Why are the seat tubes too long?As for Chris Porter I think we...
Correct. Then why don't even 5 year old bikes fit 240 dropper posts? Why are the seat tubes too long?
As for Chris Porter I think we saw that while geometries went towards what the Geometron is, generally they took a step back to something less extreme. We don't have the final state, but still. Not everybody is racing at full tilt.
I don't think seatubes are too long at all, rather insertion depths are not long enough and all over the place to easily know what will fit and what won't. And geometron geometry works on slow trails as well as fast trails as long as you trust the bike and are active rider, it's not for passengers. Only trails where it's not fun is deep ruts with tight turns where obviously both wheels don't fit inside the rut at the same time.
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I...
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
Try a 2x or 3x drivetrain back to back to a modern 1x12 drivetrain and I'm sure you won't be able to keep saying there is...
Try a 2x or 3x drivetrain back to back to a modern 1x12 drivetrain and I'm sure you won't be able to keep saying there is no difference...
Honestly my favorite bike I have ever owned and ridden was 3x friction shift. NX isn’t bad either, but I just ride in my lowest and highest gears and I don’t care about being fast, so I know that I’m not the average rider in that regard
As ebike take more (and more) market share, their development will be the main thing for most bike brands.Choosing the e-system is a lot of the...
As ebike take more (and more) market share, their development will be the main thing for most bike brands.
Choosing the e-system is a lot of the times more important for sales than suspension kinematics or a dialed geo.
Dji has pointed the direction in terms of performance and form factor and the rest will have to follow.
Already today when I see a Bosch equipped bike with an 800w (fat) battery, it looks outdated .Same goes to the new Levo, new Giant E reign ... When you compare their form factor to Amflow,Unno,Megamo,Forbidden ... it just looks outdated.
For Shimano, I think their problem is the brand culture. They are not a brand that likes to change a main product every 2-3 years , and with e-systems you have to do it in order the stay relevant.
So you think the e-bike motor (Avinox) that rattles by design, is 10-20% behind the Bosch on efficiency, utilizes cadence instead of torque based assistance, has no chain ring protection, has a higher center of gravity due to battery shape, and overheats constantly on the dyno and derates is the correct direction huh?
People are just way to obsessed with absolute power and aesthetics. All of these full power motors can produce way more than 750watts. Actually the correct direction is the Maxon; a smaller motor that can still produce the 750w Class 1 max. Combine that with high efficiency and a Solid State battery and we'll all have 45# Class 1 full power e-bikes by 2028.
I just ordered a new e-bike and Bosch Gen 5 was the primary requirement.
I think if there's ever a chance for standards to emerge it would be now because Yamaha, supplier to Giant, recently acquired Brose, supplier to Specialized and Sram. If Sram remains in that coalition I imaging them remaining in the e-market , I'd imagine them being the standard bearer with Specialized and Giant getting to take liberties "advance the standard".
With that said it's only a chance, components from a BMW motorcycle can't be bolted into a Honda. Perhaps the biggest companies with their own dealer service networks thrive on differentiation rather than standardization. @Primoz's comparison to modular PC's feels accurate.
Just to nitpick, Yamaha did not acquire Brose, they acquired the ebike business. Brose is a multi billion dollar tier 1 automotive supplier, likely much bigger than Yamaha (guessing the last part).
FWIW in the past it was said that Brose was wiling to modify the drive unit (the casing) to fit a specific manufacturer.
Actually, outside of the ebike specific parts, we have way more cross compatibility for parts between brands..
As ebike take more (and more) market share, their development will be the main thing for most bike brands.
Choosing the e-system is a lot of the times more important for sales than suspension kinematics or a dialed geo.
Dji has pointed the direction in terms of performance and form factor and the rest will have to follow.
Already today when I see a Bosch equipped bike with an 800w (fat) battery, it looks outdated .Same goes to the new Levo, new Giant E reign ... When you compare their form factor to Amflow,Unno,Megamo,Forbidden ... it just looks outdated.
For Shimano, I think their problem is the brand culture. They are not a brand that likes to change a main product every 2-3 years , and with e-systems you have to do it in order the stay relevant.
I don't think Sram is going to be going towards any standardized e-bike motor mount.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/sram-patent-shows-ultra-compact-cycloidal-gear-ebike-motor.html
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/spotted-sram-emtb-motor-prototype-at-crankworx-whistler-2025.html
https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb28602353/p5pb28602353.jpg
Yes, I don't think there's much chance of much standardization happening. But if any were to occur, this seems like the moment.
There is absolutely zero chance of a single standard emerging, we don't have a standard for seatpost diameter, headsets or bottom brackets, and those share function much more closely than ebikes with light motors, heavy motors, integrated batteries, integrated gearbox, idler, suspension pivot, etc...
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/e-bike-talk-not-tech-rumor-derailme…
Can we officially rename this thread to "The Derailleur"?
For me standardized mounts would likely hold back innovation. It's not just the size of the engine, but also how you orientate it. Then there's the MGUs. Do we want someone who's developed a smaller, lighter motor or MGU not bring it to market because they can't make it work with industry standardised mounts?
I know and I am arguing that based on other industries (and the development over the past few years) this looks like it will reverse and there will be more and more integration.
Geometry was under the bike designer's total control though. With the benefit of hindsight, it turns out Chris Porter was right all along and almost everyone else had to be led by the nose to where we are today.
I don’t understand why people care so much about drivetrains. I’ll ride anything. I can’t see myself feeling differently about motors. All of the eebs I have tried have worked great, over an 8 year span even?!?
Not sure what this means but I understand that my opinion won’t be popular. I just personally don’t understand the obsession…
Try a 2x or 3x drivetrain back to back to a modern 1x12 drivetrain and I'm sure you won't be able to keep saying there is no difference...
Correct. Then why don't even 5 year old bikes fit 240 dropper posts? Why are the seat tubes too long?
As for Chris Porter I think we saw that while geometries went towards what the Geometron is, generally they took a step back to something less extreme. We don't have the final state, but still. Not everybody is racing at full tilt.
1 CBF is dummy easy to do with a Horst link. IMO the kinematics have some advantages over the dual link setup.
2 this looked more like a “Mr. Miller we make you custom sample bike” from an Asian factory rather than something that’s about to go to market. Especially considering market conditions at the moment. However id love to be proven wrong, looks like a cool bike!
I don't really want to ride Altus or Sram NX(but I'll still have fun if I do), but I'm with you on the ebike thing. As enthusiasts we care a lot about the best, all the old dudes on class 1 ebikes seem pretty stoked regardless of the drive unit that they're on.
I don't think seatubes are too long at all, rather insertion depths are not long enough and all over the place to easily know what will fit and what won't. And geometron geometry works on slow trails as well as fast trails as long as you trust the bike and are active rider, it's not for passengers. Only trails where it's not fun is deep ruts with tight turns where obviously both wheels don't fit inside the rut at the same time.
Honestly my favorite bike I have ever owned and ridden was 3x friction shift. NX isn’t bad either, but I just ride in my lowest and highest gears and I don’t care about being fast, so I know that I’m not the average rider in that regard
So you think the e-bike motor (Avinox) that rattles by design, is 10-20% behind the Bosch on efficiency, utilizes cadence instead of torque based assistance, has no chain ring protection, has a higher center of gravity due to battery shape, and overheats constantly on the dyno and derates is the correct direction huh?
People are just way to obsessed with absolute power and aesthetics. All of these full power motors can produce way more than 750watts. Actually the correct direction is the Maxon; a smaller motor that can still produce the 750w Class 1 max. Combine that with high efficiency and a Solid State battery and we'll all have 45# Class 1 full power e-bikes by 2028.
I just ordered a new e-bike and Bosch Gen 5 was the primary requirement.
New inexpensive bash option for e-bikes - https://www.ethirteen.com/products/turbocharger-race-104bcd-e-spec
What’s Berrecloth on… 😬
Im definitely, absolutely, not trying to be a smartass or anything… but wild guess says its a bike.
Or a moped.
I wouldn't rule out drugs as well Mkay...
Based on prior judging decisions, crack cocaine
Ursa = bear. Bearclaw bikes.
This is starting to take a dark turn towards some hard drugs and Im confused why…
I thought it was a old Chumba badge 😂