I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
Hey, thats not a bad idea for prototyping! Whats the "best" leverage curve for a 150mm bike vs 180mm? Well, before you lock in your order for expensive molds you can use the test rig to find where you want it to be.
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
Canyon will be the first, it'll be called the phase shifter. No one on earth will use it, except for Jesse Melamed... and he will beat everyone's pants off with it.
But seriously, canyon is primed for some sort of real time, variable leverage rate situation with their shape shifter. KISS... amirite?
if blulahahlhlah had some kind of OE deal w/ its spec, at what point do the component brands that support these efforts need to be held...
if blulahahlhlah had some kind of OE deal w/ its spec, at what point do the component brands that support these efforts need to be held accountable? 🤮
Is it OE's selling to brands like this? Or is it factories selling off overstock they have left sitting around? My guess would be the latter I highly doubt Sram/RS is selling directly to these brands.
Jonathan Helly just keeps winning on the 2024 WAO prototype DH bike.
Now he's the latest Canadian DH National Champion, and took last (3) Dunbar series races in a row. It would certainly be in consideration for "the" hot new DH bike of the year if only WAO was on the World Cup circuit, still making frames and made it available to the public... Oh what could have been.
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate and forces are slightly different. ( did not find the shock size and stroke but i made this assuming a 205x60 )
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate...
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate and forces are slightly different. ( did not find the shock size and stroke but i made this assuming a 205x60 )
Additionally, heres a gif. The colors come out weird because the two bikes are layered on eachother :/
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
No, the two shocks are in parallel, not series. Having them in series would make it half as stiff. Having them parallel makes it much stiffer...
No, the two shocks are in parallel, not series. Having them in series would make it half as stiff. Having them parallel makes it much stiffer still.
You’re right, my bad.
I was imagining the necessary air pressure/spring rate for each shock, which is half, but you’re right that once one of the shocks is locked out in parallel, the whole system is locked out.
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so...
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?I thought that...
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?
I thought that was a pretty cool idea - to isolate bottom out and initial stroke effects
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
You could probably do this easily with some sprindexes. An infinitely tuneable leverage rate sounds very much like world cup tech.
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate...
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate and forces are slightly different. ( did not find the shock size and stroke but i made this assuming a 205x60 )
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
I can see Jerry now, fully closing rebound on one shock and leaving the other wide open, so they cancel each other out
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so...
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling...
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
With consistently high AS/kickback rate, consistently high AR, in practice Switch Infinity bikes just ride like linkage driven single pivots. They tune their AS to drop right at the end of the stroke to minimise kickback, but if your suspension is compressing fast enough to give you kickback while it's already 95% compression then you're about to have a bad time, and kickback is the least of your problems.
Switch Infinity is a very complex and expensive way to do very little.
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so...
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling...
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be...
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?I thought that...
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?
I thought that was a pretty cool idea - to isolate bottom out and initial stroke effects
Yeah it was kind of like 2" of bottom out bumper travel....I think the x-fusion shock they used would always blow up but they could be locked out with a bolt through the eyelet instead of a shock. Thats what we did with all the team bikes at least (including one Brook Mac for about 2 races until he got a turner!)
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal...
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
I was hoping for new front triangle as well. anyone got info on legend, are they cooking something new? XL 29 Frames have been sold out fork like 1 year.
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.The SB160's chainstays...
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
The SB Bikes gain about 6-8mm of rearward axle path around the sag point. My size small goes from 442-448/450.
From there they start to shorten some but overall maintain a pretty vertical axle path.
Hey, thats not a bad idea for prototyping! Whats the "best" leverage curve for a 150mm bike vs 180mm? Well, before you lock in your order for expensive molds you can use the test rig to find where you want it to be.
Canyon will be the first, it'll be called the phase shifter. No one on earth will use it, except for Jesse Melamed... and he will beat everyone's pants off with it.
But seriously, canyon is primed for some sort of real time, variable leverage rate situation with their shape shifter. KISS... amirite?
Is it OE's selling to brands like this? Or is it factories selling off overstock they have left sitting around? My guess would be the latter I highly doubt Sram/RS is selling directly to these brands.
Jonathan Helly just keeps winning on the 2024 WAO prototype DH bike.
Now he's the latest Canadian DH National Champion, and took last (3) Dunbar series races in a row. It would certainly be in consideration for "the" hot new DH bike of the year if only WAO was on the World Cup circuit, still making frames and made it available to the public... Oh what could have been.
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate and forces are slightly different. ( did not find the shock size and stroke but i made this assuming a 205x60 )
Additionally, heres a gif. The colors come out weird because the two bikes are layered on eachother :/
hell yeah. crabbotron4000 with global shock redundancy
Isnt that similar to Yeti’s Switch Infinity?
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
You’re right, my bad.
I was imagining the necessary air pressure/spring rate for each shock, which is half, but you’re right that once one of the shocks is locked out in parallel, the whole system is locked out.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?
I thought that was a pretty cool idea - to isolate bottom out and initial stroke effects
https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/products/3357/photos/2155/s1600_49372.jpg?1319761656
https://www.sicklines.com/news-images/corsair_2.jpg
You could probably do this easily with some sprindexes. An infinitely tuneable leverage rate sounds very much like world cup tech.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/2Stage-Elite-9-Test-2009.html
I've actually ridden one of these....it was not awful.
Dude, you forgot the kickstand.
Good work on the analysis.
But if I have 2 shocks? I need 2 kickstands. HA
Does this bike come with a 6 minutes abs VHS?
I wish I could’ve had a chance to try one!
I can see Jerry now, fully closing rebound on one shock and leaving the other wide open, so they cancel each other out
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
With consistently high AS/kickback rate, consistently high AR, in practice Switch Infinity bikes just ride like linkage driven single pivots. They tune their AS to drop right at the end of the stroke to minimise kickback, but if your suspension is compressing fast enough to give you kickback while it's already 95% compression then you're about to have a bad time, and kickback is the least of your problems.
Switch Infinity is a very complex and expensive way to do very little.
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
Yeah it was kind of like 2" of bottom out bumper travel....I think the x-fusion shock they used would always blow up but they could be locked out with a bolt through the eyelet instead of a shock. Thats what we did with all the team bikes at least (including one Brook Mac for about 2 races until he got a turner!)
We can only wish to see any updates from Banshee...
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
For that money I'd at least want an AXS and Kashima coated kickstand !
I was hoping for new front triangle as well. anyone got info on legend, are they cooking something new? XL 29 Frames have been sold out fork like 1 year.
The SB Bikes gain about 6-8mm of rearward axle path around the sag point. My size small goes from 442-448/450.
From there they start to shorten some but overall maintain a pretty vertical axle path.
You're talking about the horizontal distance between the bb and axle. That does shorten after sag.
The axle still moves upwards, away from the bb, extending the distance between the two. Which is what Primoz seemed to be talking about.