MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Packe777
Posts
29
Joined
8/13/2020
Location
Novi Sad RS
6/16/2024 7:26am Edited Date/Time 6/16/2024 7:45am

It seams EXT USA already has a page for selling Storia V4, found it through google, can't be accessed through link on their page yet:

https://extusa.bike/products/ext-storia-v4

 

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adamdigby
Posts
110
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
San Juan Capistrano, CA US
6/16/2024 7:35am
dolface wrote:
LBS just posted this, new to me, anyone else heard of it? (The MTB version; I know about the moto kind)

LBS just posted this, new to me, anyone else heard of it? (The MTB version; I know about the moto kind)

image-20240612180935-1

Great post. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time.  Here are the big questions. 1) Rim lock: How are you actually ensuring...

Great post. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time. 

Here are the big questions.

1) Rim lock: How are you actually ensuring the bead doesn't pop off? In moto you use a rim lock (or two!). Did they create such a thing for a mountain bike? 

2) Weight: Nuetech bibs are heavy AF for moto. Really curious how they made them light enough to be a realistic substitute for mtb.

3) Feel: This will be a huge challenge. While I feel strongly we could make a bib that feels great for commuting, casual noodling around etc, to tune a bib to "feel" like 20, 25 or 30 psi is going to be really hard. 

My Nitro Mousses get flattened/squared on top after a couple desert rides or races (I generally ride 45-60miles any given day and races are 80-100) and it’s not the end of the world for another 3-4 rides because there’s a lot more traction on the dirtbike. After this the tire will start to roll or collapse in whoops and compressions which is too scary. If the mtb versions did the same they’d be unrideable and also wildly expensive. While the Dunlop Mousse is rather harsh to begin with it lasts a lot longer and holds its shape. I’d love to try mousse for DH racing but I’d venture to say the added unsprung and rotational weight would be very noticeable as it is even noticeable on my moto.

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jeff.brines
Posts
1223
Joined
8/29/2010
Location
Grand Junction, CO US
6/16/2024 8:12am
adamdigby wrote:
My Nitro Mousses get flattened/squared on top after a couple desert rides or races (I generally ride 45-60miles any given day and races are 80-100) and...

My Nitro Mousses get flattened/squared on top after a couple desert rides or races (I generally ride 45-60miles any given day and races are 80-100) and it’s not the end of the world for another 3-4 rides because there’s a lot more traction on the dirtbike. After this the tire will start to roll or collapse in whoops and compressions which is too scary. If the mtb versions did the same they’d be unrideable and also wildly expensive. While the Dunlop Mousse is rather harsh to begin with it lasts a lot longer and holds its shape. I’d love to try mousse for DH racing but I’d venture to say the added unsprung and rotational weight would be very noticeable as it is even noticeable on my moto.

I feel there is a system we can make, especially for more casual riders, that will work way good enough but we are probably a ways off of replacing air for competitive use. I still think its insane in 2024 there isn't a flat-proof system for the top guys, but then again I don't know that we've seen a flat derail a good run among the top 20 in DH.

Completely off topic but I hate the Nuetech mousses for moto for the reasons you mentioned. I will only run michelin and get a lot of use out of them, and they are light. I'll never go back to air of any kind. 

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krabo83
Posts
717
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12/26/2017
Location
AT
6/16/2024 8:38am
gibbon wrote:

Combining the Madone and Emonda into one bike.Probably to be called Nomade or something equally stupid (Trek road bikes use the same letters)

it said madone on it, very similar to the current one but slimmer.

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jonkranked
Posts
1185
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5/5/2016
Location
Norristown, PA US
6/16/2024 9:21am
gibbon wrote:

Combining the Madone and Emonda into one bike.Probably to be called Nomade or something equally stupid (Trek road bikes use the same letters)

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Trek Adomen. Trek Enomad. Trek Donema. Trek Amonde.

Trek Mad One.

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yzedf
Posts
241
Joined
1/27/2015
Location
Hebron, CT US
6/16/2024 9:44am
gibbon wrote:

Combining the Madone and Emonda into one bike.Probably to be called Nomade or something equally stupid (Trek road bikes use the same letters)

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Trek Adomen. Trek Enomad. Trek Donema. Trek Amonde.

jonkranked wrote:

Trek Mad One.

Daemon but pronounce it demon

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TayRob
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Location
CA US
6/17/2024 5:56am
gibbon wrote:

Combining the Madone and Emonda into one bike.Probably to be called Nomade or something equally stupid (Trek road bikes use the same letters)

TEAMROBOT wrote:

Trek Adomen. Trek Enomad. Trek Donema. Trek Amonde.

jonkranked wrote:

Trek Mad One.

After working in a handful of Trek dealers in my life, I believe it’s called a Trexs Madrone.

3
PellyNH
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17
Joined
4/12/2021
Location
Austin, TX US
6/17/2024 7:14am

Ibis supposedly launching a new Ripmo (and possibly other models) next month that mimics the design language of the HD6. REALLY quiet out there though which is unusual being this close to launch. Anyone hearing anything new?

7
Carraig042
Posts
70
Joined
3/4/2013
Location
Jonesborough, TN US
6/17/2024 8:49am
PellyNH wrote:
Ibis supposedly launching a new Ripmo (and possibly other models) next month that mimics the design language of the HD6. REALLY quiet out there though which...

Ibis supposedly launching a new Ripmo (and possibly other models) next month that mimics the design language of the HD6. REALLY quiet out there though which is unusual being this close to launch. Anyone hearing anything new?

New Ripmo with straighter tubes sounds great!

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gibbon
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463
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Location
wales GB
6/17/2024 9:26am
TayRob wrote:

After working in a handful of Trek dealers in my life, I believe it’s called a Trexs Madrone.

Having worked directly for the mothership , I hate Terk............so much.

5
6/17/2024 9:36am
Carraig042 wrote:

New Ripmo with straighter tubes sounds great!

Before my pb account got suspended, I photoshoped a straight top tube Rimpo AF. Looks so much better, but I didn't save the image offline

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2
6/17/2024 5:18pm
You don't need different tunes, just use different weight oils. The solution already exists, I know some of the elite XC people use an oil that's...

You don't need different tunes, just use different weight oils. The solution already exists, I know some of the elite XC people use an oil that's called almost water (I can't remember it's exact name, it's 2.5WT from memory? Someone will know what I mean). 

It's much easier to sell the same product, and just swap oils, that way you can onsell it, or gain weight, or lose weight, and it's like $2 of fluids instead of labour on rebuilding your stack. 

HexonJuan wrote:
Like Water from Red Line Oil. Haven't run it in a fork or rear shock, but apparently Fox says that's a big no, per a pal...

Like Water from Red Line Oil. Haven't run it in a fork or rear shock, but apparently Fox says that's a big no, per a pal who runs a service center. I'm using it in my fat bike's dropper and brakes. Works a treat in the dropper, giving great return speed at 10deg F and running lower pressure in the cartridge. Brakes are unphased so far, but I'll have to wait n see how it handles summer heat before I make a firm value call on it for that use.

That's the one! I knew somebody here would know it.  I know people who have used it for kids shocks and super lightweights.  I understand why...

That's the one! I knew somebody here would know it. 

I know people who have used it for kids shocks and super lightweights. 

I understand why Fox and Rockshox use the same oil, but it would be very beneficial IMO if they ship with different weights and just have a sticker on the product showing what current oil is in it for servicing. 

 

Yup "like water" is redlines 0wt product and actually what fox rebadges to use as their seatpost fluid (although they call it 1.5wt). Crazy low viscosity of 4 cSt and insanely high viscosity index which was very very stable at high temperatures (which I tested here https://tinyurl.com/4ucjdsc7) which is good for something like an off road truck but not mtbs where the operating ranges are much smaller. The downsides are those kinds of oils oxidise really fast and turn your internals dark brown, plus they tend to be super noisy. 

Oils are a useful tuning tool for some dampers - but not all of them respond much to changes in viscosity so you will get mixed results. The trade offs of using different oils can be risky too, especially if its not being changed regularly plus you need to track what you used so it doesn't get changed out in the next service!

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6/17/2024 5:27pm
Primoz wrote:
It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency...

It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency to achieve an effect, otherwise it won't do anything or even make things worse.

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it won't help (or make it worse)

 

They were made famous in everyones favourite birthplace of technology (F1), where tyre vibration was a real problem because the suspension is so stiff and the regulations normally specify a minimum tyre pressure (which would in theory help dramatically), they needed another way to deal with it. It could maybe benefit push bikes, but would need to be easily tuneable and also be sure that you aren't masking an issue that could have been fixed in a different way

2
Snfoilhat
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84
Joined
5/19/2012
Location
Berkeley, CA US
6/17/2024 5:53pm

I suspect I'm not making a great analogy here (sorry, not my field!) but this is the first thing I thought of and obvs had to say it out loud

 

 

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1
Primoz
Posts
4542
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
6/17/2024 9:44pm
Primoz wrote:
It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency...

It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency to achieve an effect, otherwise it won't do anything or even make things worse.

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it...

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it won't help (or make it worse)

 

They were made famous in everyones favourite birthplace of technology (F1), where tyre vibration was a real problem because the suspension is so stiff and the regulations normally specify a minimum tyre pressure (which would in theory help dramatically), they needed another way to deal with it. It could maybe benefit push bikes, but would need to be easily tuneable and also be sure that you aren't masking an issue that could have been fixed in a different way

Derailing obviously... Renault used a TDM, yes. As far as I read into it, having the force on the tyre in F1 as constant as possible gives you the best grip, any spikes in the loads influence this. So they were looking for a platform that would be even more stable. The suspension is basically rock solid as it's there, primarily, to support the aero platform. In the olden days (13" wheels) the tyre was an essential part of the suspension, less so with the move to 18" wheels (the sidewall is smaller). It was never mentioned that the TDM tuned out the own frequency of the tyre, but it could be used because of that.

Anywho, the FIA outlawed it under the  'moveable aero devices' regulation at the time as on an F1 car technically only the unsprung components can move, but in reality they did not want to have cars with 25 kilo weights suspended in the nosecones. The lack of a TDM was later solved by McLaren who pioneered the inerter (which resists acceleration and effectively makes the sprung portion of the car, from the tyre standpoint, much heavier through it).

4
3
6/17/2024 11:57pm
Primoz wrote:
It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency...

It's usually called a tuned mass damper. And therein lies the issue, in the tuned part. They usually have to be tuned for a certain frequency to achieve an effect, otherwise it won't do anything or even make things worse.

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it...

Yeah its something I've wanted to put some testing in to, but unless you have a specific resonant frequency you are needing to eliminate then it won't help (or make it worse)

 

They were made famous in everyones favourite birthplace of technology (F1), where tyre vibration was a real problem because the suspension is so stiff and the regulations normally specify a minimum tyre pressure (which would in theory help dramatically), they needed another way to deal with it. It could maybe benefit push bikes, but would need to be easily tuneable and also be sure that you aren't masking an issue that could have been fixed in a different way

Primoz wrote:
Derailing obviously... Renault used a TDM, yes. As far as I read into it, having the force on the tyre in F1 as constant as possible...

Derailing obviously... Renault used a TDM, yes. As far as I read into it, having the force on the tyre in F1 as constant as possible gives you the best grip, any spikes in the loads influence this. So they were looking for a platform that would be even more stable. The suspension is basically rock solid as it's there, primarily, to support the aero platform. In the olden days (13" wheels) the tyre was an essential part of the suspension, less so with the move to 18" wheels (the sidewall is smaller). It was never mentioned that the TDM tuned out the own frequency of the tyre, but it could be used because of that.

Anywho, the FIA outlawed it under the  'moveable aero devices' regulation at the time as on an F1 car technically only the unsprung components can move, but in reality they did not want to have cars with 25 kilo weights suspended in the nosecones. The lack of a TDM was later solved by McLaren who pioneered the inerter (which resists acceleration and effectively makes the sprung portion of the car, from the tyre standpoint, much heavier through it).

They also solved it with the FRIC hydraulic suspension that was also subsequently banned. F1 has a unique problem because they require such incredibly high stiffness in heave (the entire chassis going down relative to wheels) but are forbidden to connect the front and rear suspension together, because rules.

 

Somebody on here or on MTBR did a test of bolting an inerter to a rear shock mount and found the results, bad haha. 

Is there any real world applicated of a TMD in a high frequency non stable application like a mountain bike? I mostly know of them being used in buildings. Maybe high end boats use them for stability?

Primoz
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4542
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Location
SI
6/18/2024 12:06am Edited Date/Time 6/18/2024 12:06am

FRIC does a different thing, prevents roll in corners and pitch changes under braking and accelerating but otherwise frees up the suspension corners over bumps. Inverters (and tuned mass dampers) oppose acceleration while dampers oppose velocity. FRIC just tunes how that is achieved. Springs oppose displacement obviously. And to have it stiff in heave they use third springs.

As for inerters on bikes, it was actually @Dave_Camp .

5
1
juliusk
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Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
6/18/2024 12:30am

F1 Tech Rumors and Innovation

18
6/18/2024 8:49am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might be a little lower.

1
Grave
Posts
15
Joined
4/11/2023
Location
Marquette Heights, IL US
6/18/2024 8:56am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might...

Escape Collective has some photos of it from a trade show in Australia. Appears to be an alloy clone of the Epic. Thought the price might be a little lower.

It looks like they dropped the low end carbon models. The lowest price is 5000 now.

A little over 28 pounds for a medium frame seems pretty good though.

2
6/18/2024 9:08am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

1
All-MTN-MTB
Posts
126
Joined
3/1/2023
Location
Boulder, CO US
6/18/2024 10:03am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

4
6
FullSend
Posts
187
Joined
7/14/2021
Location
DE
6/18/2024 10:33am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Not sketchy at all I've been told. The relatively low Young's modulus of aluminium let's you get away with quite a bit of deflection on an aluminium structure without any major impacts on fatigue. Fatigue is apparently an incredibly easy problem to fix from a design perspective; just add a little more material and you're good.

Bikes these days undergo excessive testing, both through FEM and on a test bench. Modern bikes are designed to withstand hundreds of thousands of full load cycles and in reality, you'll never even get anywhere close to riding your bike that much.

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6/18/2024 11:05am
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

I assume this frame was made by Merida, part owners of specialized - Merida have the alloy flex stay thing figured out, their One-Sixty models are tough as heck - rated for heavy bike park use with a lifetime warranty.

Speaking of ownership times, i've not had an alloy frame last more than a year until I got an alloy Merida. 

1
zscs
Posts
12
Joined
3/21/2024
Location
Budapest HU
6/18/2024 11:10am

It seems Canyon is experimenting the KIS Steering Stabilizer on the XCO/Marathon bikes as well. I noticed that small black plastic with a screw on the top of the top tube (Canyon Lux CFR), on Luca's bike and accidentally noticed something strange: that's must be a KIS! Smile Source: https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-actual-weights-of-11-world-cup-xc-rac…

6
jeff.brines
Posts
1223
Joined
8/29/2010
Location
Grand Junction, CO US
6/18/2024 11:14am Edited Date/Time 6/18/2024 11:16am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Thankfully someone else beat me to this. 

I could add a lot more about how flex is inherent to any design, even if you don't "feel" it, and that aluminum can be made to work just fine depending on a myriad of factors. 

But instead, I just wanted an excuse to post an OG flex stay alloy bike (that worked) 

 

5
Onawalk
Posts
344
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
6/18/2024 11:17am
Seagrave7 wrote:
Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new...

Specialized Chisel Full Suspension Just added to the Specialized USA site.  I see Articles via google search that are not available to read yet.  Guessing new product announcement this am? 

 

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/chisel-comp-shimano/p/4274028?color=5…

iceman2058 wrote:
Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of...

Is it just me, or does an aluminum flex stay seem sketchy? I’m sure it’s designed to last fine for the typical 3-5 year ownership of a new frame, but it’s certainly not a bike I’d buy second hand given aluminum’s poor fatigue strength. It would be cool if you could swap the carbon rear triangle from an epic to extend the life of the bike instead of just having a cheap, disposable frame. As is, it seems like the soda can of MTB frames tho - light, cheap, and disposable. 

Do you have alu h-bars on your bike?

You'll be just fine

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