MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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5/31/2024 3:32pm
Primoz wrote:
Think it through once more. Last I checked Shimano's RapidRise derailleurs died a deserved death almost 20 years ago and are the only ones where your...

Think it through once more. Last I checked Shimano's RapidRise derailleurs died a deserved death almost 20 years ago and are the only ones where your explanation is actually correct. In all other cases (on derailleurs where you PULL the derailleur towards larger cogs, so inwards) you're just going to slacken off the cable. The only thing prevent the derailleur from coming inwards under a hit is the top pulley hitting the cassette (which wasn't a problem until X-horizon 1x11 Sram derailleurs and Shimano nearly horizontal 12spd stuff).

If you don't believe me, go to your bike, put it in the 10T cog and push the derailleur inwards. There isn't even any resistance like there probably is with a clutch Tongue

Kudos to Sram's marketing department though, they really sold this clutch thingie like it's the bees knees Smile

Bet against Primoz you lose. I should have trusted my instincts over my pride. 

I now feel about myself how my Asian dad must have felt when I brought home that b+ in Calc1

10
notthatbryan
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5/31/2024 3:37pm Edited Date/Time 5/31/2024 3:37pm

My favorite set up has been the GX AXS (non transmission) derailleur paired with a Shimano chain and cassette. Best of both worlds 

Ive been super happy with XO1 derailleur with XT chain and cassette. 

Fast + shifts under load 

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5/31/2024 3:41pm
One interesting thing is that they use the super large chainrings so that they spend more time in the middle of the cassette and specifically lean...

One interesting thing is that they use the super large chainrings so that they spend more time in the middle of the cassette and specifically lean more towards the larger cogs because they are more efficient than the small. (because of chain articulation) Nino and the boys want to avoid the 10T at all costs (unless in a sprint) and even the 11t because it's less efficient. So the big chainrings are choses so they spend most of the race in the middle of the cassette. The 52 is more efficient than the 10T, and so on. 

That said 13 speed would be great. The jumps on MTB are manageable with 12 speed, but for gravel and road especially, 13 (really 14) is really needed to have small jumps and enough range to really make 1x 100% way to go. 

For MTB short track, the riders can use the SRAM 10-42 12speed XPLR cassette from the gravel lineup for tighter jumps. But what they'd really want is a 11-42 13speed.
 

Indeed, the frictional losses are highest in the small cogs, but the middle is the most efficient because of the straighter chainline: 

 

https://www.cyclingabout.com/drivetrain-efficiency-difference-speed-bet…

I love big jumps between shifts on a mountain bike, my ideal would be if we had Shimano Hyperglide (or whatever its called) on a 10-50 nine speed cassette, like what Box was trying to do with their Prime 9 but never released. 

However, on a road bike, I need tight gearing. When you're fighting a headwind or trying to not get dropped when you need to stay tucked behind your faster mate, having the precisely correct gear is essential. I still think dual rings for road is King, as this goal is easier to reach (plus the efficiency of the straight chain line, as seen above). I have a 9-46 11 speed on my gravel bike, and I wish I had more road-like, tighter gaps here too. 

 

9
jsray
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5/31/2024 9:50pm

Ok. Now do gearboxes. 

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1
Primoz
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5/31/2024 10:10pm

I read the split clamp article about fork crowns and there aren't any benefits for mountain bikes other than easier torquing of the clamps. The main advantage is bushing binding or less of it that isn't applicable for MTB forks as the bushing does not travel through the clamp (like it does with MX forks).

An older (32mm) Boxxer had this issue where the air spring piston traveled past the clamp and often bound there but there was a revision that followed quickly to change the design by moving the piston lower overall where it would top out below the clamp.

5
Jakub_G
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5/31/2024 10:53pm Edited Date/Time 6/1/2024 6:58am
This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically. Riding your bike depends...

This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically.

Riding your bike depends quite a bit on your hands, the muscles connected to them need to have the strength and flexibility to deal with it. 

The issue with this "just get fitter" theory is, not every person complaining about hand pain is referring to the same issue, some of them can be fixed through strengthening/stretching etc, some cannot. Long term exposure to vibrations is very unhealthy and we are doing it for fun. Even if you are the lucky one who doesn't feel the hand pain after few days of bikepark riding, that doesn't mean you are not causing damage to the neurovascular structures that one day will start to hurt. Every MTB rider would benefit from making smart and informed decisions in this area. Few years ago there was pretty shocking (to some people at least) study about damage caused by vibrations in MTB. I think it was even posted on pink bike or here. It's a good read.

Edit: for those interested 

https://www.napier.ac.uk/-/media/worktribe/output-1822898/elite-mountai…

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2
Primoz
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5/31/2024 11:02pm

I fucked up the tendons in my lower arm and/or wrist by tightly strapping down a nylon band equipped fitness tracker watch... So much so I swapped arms to cure it. 

2
TheFBI
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6/1/2024 2:37am
This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically. Riding your bike depends...

This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically.

Riding your bike depends quite a bit on your hands, the muscles connected to them need to have the strength and flexibility to deal with it. 

Jakub_G wrote:
The issue with this "just get fitter" theory is, not every person complaining about hand pain is referring to the same issue, some of them can...

The issue with this "just get fitter" theory is, not every person complaining about hand pain is referring to the same issue, some of them can be fixed through strengthening/stretching etc, some cannot. Long term exposure to vibrations is very unhealthy and we are doing it for fun. Even if you are the lucky one who doesn't feel the hand pain after few days of bikepark riding, that doesn't mean you are not causing damage to the neurovascular structures that one day will start to hurt. Every MTB rider would benefit from making smart and informed decisions in this area. Few years ago there was pretty shocking (to some people at least) study about damage caused by vibrations in MTB. I think it was even posted on pink bike or here. It's a good read.

Edit: for those interested 

https://www.napier.ac.uk/-/media/worktribe/output-1822898/elite-mountai…

"It was concluded that no acute effects on nerve function in the dominant hand were measured after mountain bike cycling on the trail, despite high vibration doses through the handlebars."

Am I missing something or does this imply there's nothing to worry about?

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shape
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6/1/2024 3:54am
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to...

I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. Oil can flow X volume before closing a port and redirecting oil flow to the traditional compression shim stack. 

Does this exist in motor sports already? 

Dave_Camp wrote:
yes- that is what the intention is. getting it to work smoothly and package in a MTB damper is another story.  I think some of the...

yes- that is what the intention is.

getting it to work smoothly and package in a MTB damper is another story.  I think some of the issue is MTB suspension has an extremely wide range of shaft speeds to deal with.  Something like 5-10x the range of a normal car, so what works on cars doesn't always translate.

 

search Koni FSD- they make it for cars- not sure if there is a racing application or if it's for Toyota Avalons...

Suspension in civil cars and MTB generates similar velocities, however extremes like 6 m/s and above is usuall thing for MTB but rare for a car. Shocks of a car obvoiusly cope with It but that's not a case of other components like wheels. 

Koni's fsd system is a benchmark of frequency sensitive valve because It can provide huge yet graduate damping force reduction with frequency increase with impressive, completely convex force-displacement graphs. Its also recovers pretty well.

It's most often used to work on rebound. Influence on compression is just side effect. 

Its worth noting that there is small difference between frequency sensitive damping and amplitude sensitive damping. 

With all my experience, I bet we probably won't see anything competitive with fsd in MTB. 

3
maxwrbike
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6/1/2024 5:25am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2024 6:37am
This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically. Riding your bike depends...

This. I feel as though people will open their wallet 10 times to every 1 time trying to adjust for it physiologically.

Riding your bike depends quite a bit on your hands, the muscles connected to them need to have the strength and flexibility to deal with it. 

Jakub_G wrote:
The issue with this "just get fitter" theory is, not every person complaining about hand pain is referring to the same issue, some of them can...

The issue with this "just get fitter" theory is, not every person complaining about hand pain is referring to the same issue, some of them can be fixed through strengthening/stretching etc, some cannot. Long term exposure to vibrations is very unhealthy and we are doing it for fun. Even if you are the lucky one who doesn't feel the hand pain after few days of bikepark riding, that doesn't mean you are not causing damage to the neurovascular structures that one day will start to hurt. Every MTB rider would benefit from making smart and informed decisions in this area. Few years ago there was pretty shocking (to some people at least) study about damage caused by vibrations in MTB. I think it was even posted on pink bike or here. It's a good read.

Edit: for those interested 

https://www.napier.ac.uk/-/media/worktribe/output-1822898/elite-mountai…

The title “Mountain bike cycling” invalidates that entire article if you ask me…

2
Jakub_G
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6/1/2024 6:57am
TheFBI wrote:
"It was concluded that no acute effects on nerve function in the dominant hand were measured after mountain bike cycling on the trail, despite high vibration...

"It was concluded that no acute effects on nerve function in the dominant hand were measured after mountain bike cycling on the trail, despite high vibration doses through the handlebars."

Am I missing something or does this imply there's nothing to worry about?

Sorry, wrong study, but acute damage is not what's worrying anyways, you typically can still function after long day of riding right? This is the right study and I will repost the right link in the first post too.https://www.napier.ac.uk/-/media/worktribe/output-1822898/elite-mountai…

4
owl-x
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6/1/2024 8:45am

I just backed out of a post in the arm pump thread saying pretty much: until you can pulverize a potato in your hand, don’t worry about a degree of back sweep in your handlebars…but that’s just my personal experience, and it felt dumb to say it to dudes getting surgeries and shit…I will assume that anyone resorting to getting cut open or dealing with an existential bike crisis has indeed got their grip strength to mega levels first…

but for me, it’s all grip strength. Very strong correlation betweeN how much I’ve been riding / gripping and whether I can ride / grip. Glad for that. Simple. 
 

As for harmful vibrations encountered in mtb, I’ll continue to focus on the big ones. Trees, rocks, the ground…

5
DirtyHal
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6/1/2024 9:19am
Primoz wrote:
I read the split clamp article about fork crowns and there aren't any benefits for mountain bikes other than easier torquing of the clamps. The main...

I read the split clamp article about fork crowns and there aren't any benefits for mountain bikes other than easier torquing of the clamps. The main advantage is bushing binding or less of it that isn't applicable for MTB forks as the bushing does not travel through the clamp (like it does with MX forks).

An older (32mm) Boxxer had this issue where the air spring piston traveled past the clamp and often bound there but there was a revision that followed quickly to change the design by moving the piston lower overall where it would top out below the clamp.

Why do you think ohlins did a split clamp for Bruni then?  Not being argumentative but surely there’s a reason other than counting grams.

1
Shinook
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6/1/2024 11:11am Edited Date/Time 6/1/2024 11:17am
owl-x wrote:
I just backed out of a post in the arm pump thread saying pretty much: until you can pulverize a potato in your hand, don’t worry...

I just backed out of a post in the arm pump thread saying pretty much: until you can pulverize a potato in your hand, don’t worry about a degree of back sweep in your handlebars…but that’s just my personal experience, and it felt dumb to say it to dudes getting surgeries and shit…I will assume that anyone resorting to getting cut open or dealing with an existential bike crisis has indeed got their grip strength to mega levels first…

but for me, it’s all grip strength. Very strong correlation betweeN how much I’ve been riding / gripping and whether I can ride / grip. Glad for that. Simple. 
 

As for harmful vibrations encountered in mtb, I’ll continue to focus on the big ones. Trees, rocks, the ground…

Thanks but being one of the people cut open twice for it, I won't be offended. As was said earlier, this is unique to everyone and not consistent in how it presents itself. I'm envious of people who it comes down to fitness and flexibility, and am glad for them there is a simpler solution. It's different for everyone and fitness can play a huge role for some people.

For grip strength, I spent a sum total of years in physical therapy trying to resolve this issue with different PTs over the last 7 or so years. I also work out in the gym a fair bit and did a lot of exercises to improve my core, shoulder, arm, grip, etc strength and while it helped, it didn't solve the root of the issue which was related to compression of nerves in both of my arms. The left was worse than the right. These activities/people/etc didn't hurt and definitely helped in a lot of ways, but the root of the problem was still there and it continually got worse until I sought surgery. It got much more severe in the span of six months in 2023 than in the 7 or so years prior, so it can escalate quickly.

It's also a cascading problem. Weakness from nerve damage in one side tends to force you to be more dominant in the other and you get a strength imbalance. If you saw me lifting weights even now, you'd see my left is completely different than my right (insert joke about search engine history here). If I do pushups or other things, it's easy to feel where I'm trying to put more weight on my right side. It's balanced a lot since I started working out in the gym a lot more and trying to resolve it, but it's still there. This is decade+ long at this point so it's going to take a while, but the root of the issue is from the nerves in my arm. 

Like I said earlier, this won't apply to everyone, but if you have persistent problems after riding then you should consider seeing a hand surgeon or doctor. They will probably refer you to PT and I suspect that will solve most issues, but it didn't for me and I did try. It started for me after spending 3 days at a bike park 7-8 years or so ago and I noticed I had lost strength in one hand, over the years later it progressed to the point I couldn't do a 4 mile ride without being in persistent pain for a month or more after. There's a difference between "my hands are sore from riding a lot" and "I'm having persistent pain/weakness for weeks and months". If you have constant, consistent hand pain then that is not normal.

After having surgery, it felt like someone had cut a rubber band between my elbow and my pinky. Within a week I had regained dexterity in my hand I didn't know I had lost and I was sleeping better because the pain was gone. Sadly, it still hurts when I ride, but nerves also heal very very slowly so I'm giving it time and hoping it heals to the point I can ride normally again.

6
Primoz
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6/1/2024 11:45am
Primoz wrote:
I read the split clamp article about fork crowns and there aren't any benefits for mountain bikes other than easier torquing of the clamps. The main...

I read the split clamp article about fork crowns and there aren't any benefits for mountain bikes other than easier torquing of the clamps. The main advantage is bushing binding or less of it that isn't applicable for MTB forks as the bushing does not travel through the clamp (like it does with MX forks).

An older (32mm) Boxxer had this issue where the air spring piston traveled past the clamp and often bound there but there was a revision that followed quickly to change the design by moving the piston lower overall where it would top out below the clamp.

DirtyHal wrote:

Why do you think ohlins did a split clamp for Bruni then?  Not being argumentative but surely there’s a reason other than counting grams.

No idea. Maybe there is a reason, maybe they just followed MX stuff and gave it an old try...

The bending of the fork will be more smooth, maybe the local tension will be lowered, but forks aren't really breaking left and right, so I don't see a benefit in that. Maybe they have a piston traveling past the lower clamp. Maybe whatever. As far as I'm aware, most pistons nowadays don't travel past the clamp... Maybe I'm mistaken on that part.

The MX post specifically found multiple reasons why split clamps are better because there is less binding because they have a 'traveling' bushing (a bushing on the end of the stanchion moving inside the outer leg) that moves past the tree. And having split clamps lessens the edge when bending (less binding of the bushing) and the more equal torque achieved with split clamps causes less binding for the bushing.

3
brash
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6/1/2024 2:59pm

In moto, the primary reason is the offset change in the clamps. You are right, the floating bushing is marginally free'd up but the selling point is the offset adjustment which makes a noticeable difference. For MTB, I'm struggling to find anything other than bling and lighter than a conventional clamp perhaps.

3
6/1/2024 6:31pm
brash wrote:
In moto, the primary reason is the offset change in the clamps. You are right, the floating bushing is marginally free'd up but the selling point...

In moto, the primary reason is the offset change in the clamps. You are right, the floating bushing is marginally free'd up but the selling point is the offset adjustment which makes a noticeable difference. For MTB, I'm struggling to find anything other than bling and lighter than a conventional clamp perhaps.

The split clamp could let them run a lower torque on each bolt. Maybe this gives a different feel?  

Could have been something to just test and try, maybe no advantage or disadvantage at this point.

The stock Ohlins air shaft is a sealed unit that the air piston slides in, doesn’t touch the stanctions. Could Loic be on a different air spring, possibly?

1
6/1/2024 11:57pm

Or it could be because they look cool and moto and everyone is now discussing them and leads to sales?

Devils advocate I know. But often they change product just to have something new to sell, not because it results in tangible performance benefits. 

6
DServy
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6/2/2024 6:46am
Black Maven Levers?!?! Or just Silver levers on Ultimate calipers?  Found these on Conner Fearon’s Bikes Check   


Black Maven Levers?!?! Or just Silver levers on Ultimate calipers? 
Found these on Conner Fearon’s Bikes Check 

 

29 wrote:
  black calipers as well. Only difference is titanium hardware on the ultimate I think so maybe they just switched that out because the black goes...

image 12

 

black calipers as well. Only difference is titanium hardware on the ultimate I think so maybe they just switched that out because the black goes better with the frame  

 

bigbonjour wrote:
These will just be from last year before the release, all the pre production Mavens teams received last season were full black, with only a few...

These will just be from last year before the release, all the pre production Mavens teams received last season were full black, with only a few exceptions on the red caliper 

The sliver level Mavens on my dreadnought v2 ended up being all black.

2
5
mickey
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6/2/2024 6:54am
raozaki wrote:
Cannondale DH Proto at Hardline. I thought they benched these?    

Cannondale DH Proto at Hardline.

I thought they benched these?

 

 

othello wrote:
Looks exactly (on the surface at least) like the black version Simmonds was testing/developing. Even has the 2 mount points for the second shock.  Josh was...

Looks exactly (on the surface at least) like the black version Simmonds was testing/developing. Even has the 2 mount points for the second shock. 

Josh was asked about the bike, and he said it's the prototype and is an XL. Also said it's long and low. 

Wonder if it's the same bike with a cool paint job. Or a tweaked version for Josh to help develop?

They are the exact same frames.  Cannondale pulled them out of a closet in Connecticut and painted them.   At least they have a paint shop in America…

10
6/2/2024 11:31am Edited Date/Time 6/2/2024 11:32am
 

 

Wonder when the 13speed mtb groupset is released.

2
18LifeToGo
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6/2/2024 1:01pm
    Wonder when the 13speed mtb groupset is released.
 

 

Wonder when the 13speed mtb groupset is released.

SRAM has had webinars on it. The product is being sent to shops. It was supposed to be launched in the fall with the new Specialized UDH Crux. Seems like they have abandoned the typical embargo because it's being shown everywhere. Shimano has DI2 XTR and DI2 1x GRX dropping as well. 

Great time to be a consumer of bikes and components. 

 

13
6/2/2024 11:36pm
jsray wrote:

Ok. Now do gearboxes. 

Thanks for linking that, some really interesting points and math I haven't seen before, for instance:

On A Flat 100km Route (0% Gradient)
Over 100km, the 1.44km/h drop in speed from the Rohloff to the Nuvinci will add 9 minutes and 30 seconds to your cycling time (4.9% slower). To put that into perspective, carrying 30kg (66lb) extra on your touring bike would add 5 minutes to your ride time (2.6% slower) on the same route.

On A Hilly 100km Route (10km up, 10km down x5 @ 2% Gradient)Over 100km, the less efficient Pinion P1.18 adds 4 minutes and 31 seconds to your cycling time (2.1% slower) when compared to the Rohloff. To put that into perspective, carrying 5kg extra on your touring bike would add 5 minutes to your ride time (2.3% slower) on the same route

Puts into perspective why gearboxes haven't taken off for competitive bike disciplines 

6
jsray
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6/3/2024 5:38am
jsray wrote:

Ok. Now do gearboxes. 

Thanks for linking that, some really interesting points and math I haven't seen before, for instance: On A Flat 100km Route (0% Gradient) Over 100km, the...

Thanks for linking that, some really interesting points and math I haven't seen before, for instance:

On A Flat 100km Route (0% Gradient)
Over 100km, the 1.44km/h drop in speed from the Rohloff to the Nuvinci will add 9 minutes and 30 seconds to your cycling time (4.9% slower). To put that into perspective, carrying 30kg (66lb) extra on your touring bike would add 5 minutes to your ride time (2.6% slower) on the same route.

On A Hilly 100km Route (10km up, 10km down x5 @ 2% Gradient)Over 100km, the less efficient Pinion P1.18 adds 4 minutes and 31 seconds to your cycling time (2.1% slower) when compared to the Rohloff. To put that into perspective, carrying 5kg extra on your touring bike would add 5 minutes to your ride time (2.3% slower) on the same route

Puts into perspective why gearboxes haven't taken off for competitive bike disciplines 

I’d rather walk than ride a road bike. 

Gear boxes, or at least the benefits of them, make way more sense to me than a derailleur. The disadvantages in climbing, shifting speed, weight, etc seem negligible. Aside from the grip shift, because that is an absolute no-go. Like putting a thumb throttle on a dirt bike. 
 

5
28
6/3/2024 2:55pm

Remember a few pages back (eternity ago, probably in a previous Creation or Big Bang) someone linked to a patent that has a floating bypass for dampenening? The idea is that you get 1cm or whatever of undamped fork movement. 

On my ride this morning I was thinking, isn't that what those pucks do in the latest Rock Shocks forks? EXT's fork does this on the air spring side- the bottom of the push rod has a 1 inch literal coil spring connecting it to the fork lowers. Why not do this on both sides? Create a half inch or whatever spring that has to bottom before the damping connecting rod is engaged (in reality it would have a dynamic relationship with the damping). 

A few years ago some small brand did this with rear suspension too- the front mount for the rear shock was a tiny swingarm with an elastomer so that your rear suspension compressed this tiny elastomer along with your air shock. 

1
1
FaahkEet
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6/3/2024 3:08pm Edited Date/Time 6/3/2024 3:09pm

The buttercups supposedly offer 4mm of vertical compliance. I put in the new DebonAir+ airspring, so only added the buttercups to one side. Didn't really notice much difference, but I didn't do much of a test plus it was probably around service time that it was replaced too. I remember being shocked at how little oil was left in the lowers. So yeah, not a great back to back test. 

Having proper amounts of oil made a noticeable difference in feel though. 

3
earleb
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6/3/2024 3:10pm
Remember a few pages back (eternity ago, probably in a previous Creation or Big Bang) someone linked to a patent that has a floating bypass for...

Remember a few pages back (eternity ago, probably in a previous Creation or Big Bang) someone linked to a patent that has a floating bypass for dampenening? The idea is that you get 1cm or whatever of undamped fork movement. 

On my ride this morning I was thinking, isn't that what those pucks do in the latest Rock Shocks forks? EXT's fork does this on the air spring side- the bottom of the push rod has a 1 inch literal coil spring connecting it to the fork lowers. Why not do this on both sides? Create a half inch or whatever spring that has to bottom before the damping connecting rod is engaged (in reality it would have a dynamic relationship with the damping). 

A few years ago some small brand did this with rear suspension too- the front mount for the rear shock was a tiny swingarm with an elastomer so that your rear suspension compressed this tiny elastomer along with your air shock. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ccu0xQCM9dG/?igsh=Y3V4b3AxMjk3NWUw

These guys in Italy have isolated the shock mount with a pu puck pressed into the rocker. I think they have a patent on it.

3
Jakub_G
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6/4/2024 1:06am
earleb wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ccu0xQCM9dG/?igsh=Y3V4b3AxMjk3NWUw

These guys in Italy have isolated the shock mount with a pu puck pressed into the rocker. I think they have a patent on it.

Few pages ago I was thinking about soft mounted stem, these guys seem to have figured it out https://www.instagram.com/p/C69HwTJogHo/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

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