MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

Related:
Primoz
Posts
4585
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
11/6/2023 1:23pm Edited Date/Time 11/6/2023 1:24pm
So far we haven't seen any renderings of the mechanical direct mount derailleur with a cassette. I'd bet that the "direct mount transmission" is really just...

So far we haven't seen any renderings of the mechanical direct mount derailleur with a cassette. I'd bet that the "direct mount transmission" is really just an update for the older X-Dome style cassettes. I haven't tried putting a T-Type derailleur on an older cassette yet. Theoretically, it could work, not sure if the lack of limit adjustments would line up though. 

dolface wrote:

t-type-patent.jpeg?VersionId=sZNfm9nNlepfYJyqjjonur3bDYSCw

This looks very much like the Eagle cable actuated derailleurs with the (3D model) part for the knuckle replaced to be direct mount. Is it possible these were made before the first AXS Eagle derailleur was shown and was a placeholder or a mockup for the patent application? I wouldn't read too much into it to be honest.

EDIT: upon closer inspection, looks like the old 500 % X01 derailleur and the 10-50T X01 cassette, so very likely pre-AXS.

2
Zuestman
Posts
191
Joined
10/27/2014
Location
Seattle, WA US
11/6/2023 1:47pm
AndehM wrote:
I'm pretty certain that Transmission doesn't "know" anything about position of ramp cogs.  The system has a stiffer chain, more precise alignment between the derailleur and...

I'm pretty certain that Transmission doesn't "know" anything about position of ramp cogs.  The system has a stiffer chain, more precise alignment between the derailleur and cassette, more force from the derailleur, and a refined ramp pattern.  When you queue up multiple shifts, you immediately hear the bzzt bzzt bzzt of the derailleur moving, then the chain works it's way up/down the cassette.  If it knew where the ramps were, you'd click click click, then it would break up the bzzt as gears changed.  XTR shifting in my experience is quicker if you time shifts.  T-Type (I have on an ebike and enduro bike) doesn't really care about timing.  Just hit shift and it will shift whenever it can.  Occasionally a little bit louder if there's a ton of load, but I've completely stopped caring about timing shifts and never had a single bad shift.

iceman2058 wrote:
Correct, the system is not aware of where the shifting ramps are. The "electronic timing" you hear talk about is just a delay introduced when you...

Correct, the system is not aware of where the shifting ramps are. The "electronic timing" you hear talk about is just a delay introduced when you try to shift more than 2 gears in rapid succession. The derailleur will physically move for the first 2 clicks, putting sideways pressure on the chain which will then shift on the cassette when it encounters the shift ramps. As soon as the derailleur knows that it has moved for those first shifts, it will then initiate the remaining shifts (however many clicks you hit). This helps avoid any excessive side loads on the derailleur. As for the shifting quality, GX Transmission is one of the smoothest out there, there will be the occasional noise of the chain clunking off the teeth as it leaves a cog, but for the most part it's quiet. A perfectly tuned XTR drivetrain may still have the upper hand in terms of absolute smoothness in all circumstances, but we're splitting hairs now. Both are very very good, including when shifting under load.

this is key.  Shifting has more to do with shift ramps and chain profile than it does with the RD.  The RD put the chain in the correct place, repeatedely, and is stiff enough to hold it there.

The cassette chist ramps and the chain stiffness and design are what interact to actually shift a chain.  This is why shimano owns SO MANY patents on cassette/ring design and chain deisgn.  that is the key to quality shifting.  A great RD is key to reliable, repeatable quality shifting.

In this case it should be easy for SRAM to make a cable transmission (and i am sure they will).  Make an RD that works with the chain, works with UDH, and is at a lower price point and should be good to go.  Its getting the price of the cassette and the chain down that will be key to the lower price point.

9
ERGue
Posts
63
Joined
1/24/2014
Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
11/6/2023 4:03pm
What's this shock? I'm not familiar with it. 

What's this shock? I'm not familiar with it. Screenshot 2023-11-03 154514

jsray wrote:
Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there...

Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there. What they need is externally adjustable HBO. The new RS SD coil for a 1/3 of the price is significantly better than any of the 11/6 I owned on several different bikes over the years. 

Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two sets of valving sounds good on paper but most people get confident with how one set of valving works for all types of gravity trails and end up using the other set as a climb mode anyway. 

9
jsray
Posts
218
Joined
5/20/2017
Location
Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
11/6/2023 7:03pm
What's this shock? I'm not familiar with it. 

What's this shock? I'm not familiar with it. Screenshot 2023-11-03 154514

jsray wrote:
Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there...

Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there. What they need is externally adjustable HBO. The new RS SD coil for a 1/3 of the price is significantly better than any of the 11/6 I owned on several different bikes over the years. 

ERGue wrote:
Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two...

Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two sets of valving sounds good on paper but most people get confident with how one set of valving works for all types of gravity trails and end up using the other set as a climb mode anyway. 

Sadly, the lower price point is still going to ruffle a lot of feathers. I’d like to place my bet now at $850, before shipping and taxes. 

3
2supple
Posts
99
Joined
1/23/2022
Location
Denver, CO US
11/6/2023 9:01pm Edited Date/Time 11/6/2023 9:10pm
jsray wrote:
Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there...

Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there. What they need is externally adjustable HBO. The new RS SD coil for a 1/3 of the price is significantly better than any of the 11/6 I owned on several different bikes over the years. 

The RS is significantly better than a Push? I agree the RS is a much better value, and for the right use case, arguably a better shock. But "significantly better"? You must be riding like Loic Bruni to feel that much difference in two excellent shocks. 

Ready to get flamed for not saying Rockshox is the best at everything.

3
gbcoke
Posts
102
Joined
1/6/2016
Location
US
11/6/2023 10:18pm

Had an Ext E-storia,X2 factorty,Sd coil ult and an DHX2 on my Evil Epocalypse.

Tried a Push and never looked back,far superior feel and control on this bike compared to the rest.

Only thing is I really dont use the 2 different circuits and dont mind if it had only one and save some $$

2
yetipowder
Posts
7
Joined
10/7/2019
Location
Philadelphia, PA US
11/6/2023 10:37pm

Not gonna sit here and wax poetic about all of RS product range, but I do agree the SD Ult coil is a fabulous shock. Been absolutely bomber on my status and feels like the dials make real usable /noticeable changes 

4
11/6/2023 11:21pm
ERGue wrote:
Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two...

Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two sets of valving sounds good on paper but most people get confident with how one set of valving works for all types of gravity trails and end up using the other set as a climb mode anyway. 

There is no fancy engineering or anything special about a Push shock really besides it just being well made and some nice CNC work. The secret sauce is in the fact that it is basically custom tuned for the bike and rider. At the end of the day, without the tuning, the RS SD and the Push are almost the same. 

I do think there is scope for push to do a simpler shock that is still tuned to the rider and bike, that would be a better solution to the majority of riders. Whether Push can make that work for them financially is a different story?

I'm interested to see how their fork rides personally, THAT looks like some engineering has been put to work there!

7
Evil96
Posts
812
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/7/2023 12:13am
yetipowder wrote:
Not gonna sit here and wax poetic about all of RS product range, but I do agree the SD Ult coil is a fabulous shock. Been...

Not gonna sit here and wax poetic about all of RS product range, but I do agree the SD Ult coil is a fabulous shock. Been absolutely bomber on my status and feels like the dials make real usable /noticeable changes 

just because you have just 4 actual click to choose from doesn't make all the clicks on fox, cane creek or push useless, or not working.

regardless

 

new V10.8 just released

 

4
Evil96
Posts
812
Joined
8/21/2014
Location
Portogruaro, VE IT
11/7/2023 12:15am
ERGue wrote:
Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two...

Push would do themselves a favor if they made a "single overhead" shock with a climb switch at a lower price point. I think the two sets of valving sounds good on paper but most people get confident with how one set of valving works for all types of gravity trails and end up using the other set as a climb mode anyway. 

There is no fancy engineering or anything special about a Push shock really besides it just being well made and some nice CNC work. The secret...

There is no fancy engineering or anything special about a Push shock really besides it just being well made and some nice CNC work. The secret sauce is in the fact that it is basically custom tuned for the bike and rider. At the end of the day, without the tuning, the RS SD and the Push are almost the same. 

I do think there is scope for push to do a simpler shock that is still tuned to the rider and bike, that would be a better solution to the majority of riders. Whether Push can make that work for them financially is a different story?

I'm interested to see how their fork rides personally, THAT looks like some engineering has been put to work there!

although they could've spend some more time on the stanchion protection, for example the one custom made by Rulezman for the intend forks are way better and more protective, curious to see how crazy expensive that fork will be tho

2
jsray
Posts
218
Joined
5/20/2017
Location
Gilbert, AZ US
Fantasy
11/7/2023 5:53am
jsray wrote:
Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there...

Maybe they’re doing a budget shock. Doesn’t have the same shock body as the 11/6. Looks like LSC only on the top of the reservoir there. What they need is externally adjustable HBO. The new RS SD coil for a 1/3 of the price is significantly better than any of the 11/6 I owned on several different bikes over the years. 

2supple wrote:
The RS is significantly better than a Push? I agree the RS is a much better value, and for the right use case, arguably a better...

The RS is significantly better than a Push? I agree the RS is a much better value, and for the right use case, arguably a better shock. But "significantly better"? You must be riding like Loic Bruni to feel that much difference in two excellent shocks. 

Ready to get flamed for not saying Rockshox is the best at everything.

Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo. On all of those bikes I also tried X2, prev ver SD air, dhx and dhx2. Once the new SD coil came out I had it on a sentinel, SJ evo, and now forbidden Druid v2. Any time I get a new bike or new suspension component I take my time setting it up, different springs, and bracketing on the same trail. If I can, I bring multiple shocks to the trail and swap them in the parking lot for back to back runs. I’d take the SD ult coil for $600 delivered and spend the other $1000 on anything else. 
 

not to derail the forum too much, but to defend my statement a little bit. 

8
2supple
Posts
99
Joined
1/23/2022
Location
Denver, CO US
11/7/2023 6:32am Edited Date/Time 11/7/2023 6:32am
jsray wrote:
Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo...

Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo. On all of those bikes I also tried X2, prev ver SD air, dhx and dhx2. Once the new SD coil came out I had it on a sentinel, SJ evo, and now forbidden Druid v2. Any time I get a new bike or new suspension component I take my time setting it up, different springs, and bracketing on the same trail. If I can, I bring multiple shocks to the trail and swap them in the parking lot for back to back runs. I’d take the SD ult coil for $600 delivered and spend the other $1000 on anything else. 
 

not to derail the forum too much, but to defend my statement a little bit. 

Sure, if you’re talking about value then I don’t think there’s much of an argument but that’s not how it came off when you said “significantly better”.

Given your history I’m still a bit surprised. In my experience when it comes to comparing a Push, DHX2 or any other high performing shock, it’s the tune that makes one feel “significantly better” than another. They are all great hardware but a shit tune is going to feel like shit. 


Sorry but I get tired of people saying one brand is way better than another when they both offer top tier stuff. Typically it’s the less experienced who do this though. 

2
nskerb
Posts
344
Joined
3/3/2020
Location
Kelso, WA US
11/7/2023 7:05am

That new v10 looks sweet as usual but the size small in its neutral settings has a rear center like 25mm longer than it’s front. The rest of the sizes look pretty similar front to rear.
 

 Not really relevant to most riders but interesting. Wonder what that rides like.

ERGue
Posts
63
Joined
1/24/2014
Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
11/7/2023 7:38am
There is no fancy engineering or anything special about a Push shock really besides it just being well made and some nice CNC work. The secret...

There is no fancy engineering or anything special about a Push shock really besides it just being well made and some nice CNC work. The secret sauce is in the fact that it is basically custom tuned for the bike and rider. At the end of the day, without the tuning, the RS SD and the Push are almost the same. 

I do think there is scope for push to do a simpler shock that is still tuned to the rider and bike, that would be a better solution to the majority of riders. Whether Push can make that work for them financially is a different story?

I'm interested to see how their fork rides personally, THAT looks like some engineering has been put to work there!

Uh parabolic needle transitioning to a spring loaded poppet all tuned by an electromagnetic dyno for the individual chassis is the definition of Fancy Engineering in my book. Not arguing for, or against, but it’s definitely fancy. 

4
11/7/2023 8:31am

New Kenevo SL dropping this week then.

ksl2 0.JPG?VersionId=CbQ0KY

6
sethimus
Posts
889
Joined
9/20/2014
Location
CH
11/7/2023 8:38am
jsray wrote:
Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo...

Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo. On all of those bikes I also tried X2, prev ver SD air, dhx and dhx2. Once the new SD coil came out I had it on a sentinel, SJ evo, and now forbidden Druid v2. Any time I get a new bike or new suspension component I take my time setting it up, different springs, and bracketing on the same trail. If I can, I bring multiple shocks to the trail and swap them in the parking lot for back to back runs. I’d take the SD ult coil for $600 delivered and spend the other $1000 on anything else. 
 

not to derail the forum too much, but to defend my statement a little bit. 

2supple wrote:
Sure, if you’re talking about value then I don’t think there’s much of an argument but that’s not how it came off when you said “significantly...

Sure, if you’re talking about value then I don’t think there’s much of an argument but that’s not how it came off when you said “significantly better”.

Given your history I’m still a bit surprised. In my experience when it comes to comparing a Push, DHX2 or any other high performing shock, it’s the tune that makes one feel “significantly better” than another. They are all great hardware but a shit tune is going to feel like shit. 


Sorry but I get tired of people saying one brand is way better than another when they both offer top tier stuff. Typically it’s the less experienced who do this though. 

you can get the r2ct with several tunes already?

2
TimBud
Posts
535
Joined
2/29/2012
Location
GB
11/7/2023 8:56am

50nm

cfox109
Posts
12
Joined
6/5/2023
Location
Lake Forest, CA US
11/7/2023 9:05am

Was really hoping for a full powered Kenevo update 

2
samdaman1
Posts
47
Joined
12/18/2016
Location
GB
11/7/2023 9:29am
jsray wrote:
Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo...

Performance, price, availability, service, and even the used market. I had push on an offering v1, sb130, mullet Bronson, enduro, scout, offering v2, and SJ Evo. On all of those bikes I also tried X2, prev ver SD air, dhx and dhx2. Once the new SD coil came out I had it on a sentinel, SJ evo, and now forbidden Druid v2. Any time I get a new bike or new suspension component I take my time setting it up, different springs, and bracketing on the same trail. If I can, I bring multiple shocks to the trail and swap them in the parking lot for back to back runs. I’d take the SD ult coil for $600 delivered and spend the other $1000 on anything else. 
 

not to derail the forum too much, but to defend my statement a little bit. 

2supple wrote:
Sure, if you’re talking about value then I don’t think there’s much of an argument but that’s not how it came off when you said “significantly...

Sure, if you’re talking about value then I don’t think there’s much of an argument but that’s not how it came off when you said “significantly better”.

Given your history I’m still a bit surprised. In my experience when it comes to comparing a Push, DHX2 or any other high performing shock, it’s the tune that makes one feel “significantly better” than another. They are all great hardware but a shit tune is going to feel like shit. 


Sorry but I get tired of people saying one brand is way better than another when they both offer top tier stuff. Typically it’s the less experienced who do this though. 

sethimus wrote:

you can get the r2ct with several tunes already?

You can get them with custom tunes from a lot of tuners too, plus there's aftermarket parts of them such as the WPS piston for example

sspomer
Posts
6136
Joined
6/26/2009
Location
Boise, ID US
Fantasy
11/7/2023 10:00am

neko talks about production frames

 

9
11/7/2023 3:00pm
sspomer wrote:
neko talks about production frames  

neko talks about production frames

 

I've been watching most of his videos, but I'm still impressed with the high quality of the frame and I'm sure it rides great too.

1
ERGue
Posts
63
Joined
1/24/2014
Location
Sedro Woolley, WA US
11/8/2023 11:25am
I've been watching most of his videos, but I'm still impressed with the high quality of the frame and I'm sure it rides great too.

I've been watching most of his videos, but I'm still impressed with the high quality of the frame and I'm sure it rides great too.

So I get that the shock rotated 90 degrees is to allow for a straight down tube which is stronger then a bent one, but I am confused on why the shock is oriented with reservoir on bottom in the first place, wouldn’t reservoir up give the same clearance?
Does anyone know if the lower shock mount piece where it ties into the frame has a bearing in it (DU, or Cartridge, etc)?

2
Dave_Camp
Posts
460
Joined
8/25/2009
Location
CO US
11/8/2023 11:33am

Possibly better knee clearance or a slimmer rocker by mounting with resi on the bottom.

has to have some kind of bearing on the tiny yoke. 

3
Zuestman
Posts
191
Joined
10/27/2014
Location
Seattle, WA US
11/8/2023 11:34am
I've been watching most of his videos, but I'm still impressed with the high quality of the frame and I'm sure it rides great too.

I've been watching most of his videos, but I'm still impressed with the high quality of the frame and I'm sure it rides great too.

ERGue wrote:
So I get that the shock rotated 90 degrees is to allow for a straight down tube which is stronger then a bent one, but I...

So I get that the shock rotated 90 degrees is to allow for a straight down tube which is stronger then a bent one, but I am confused on why the shock is oriented with reservoir on bottom in the first place, wouldn’t reservoir up give the same clearance?
Does anyone know if the lower shock mount piece where it ties into the frame has a bearing in it (DU, or Cartridge, etc)?

Usually has to do with unsprung weight and how that affects suspension

9
Post a reply to: MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

This forum thread has been locked.

The Latest