Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever...
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with...
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with your legs instantly having to double, triple or quadruple their output once the to motor drops. If you are riding at 24.99kmh with 150w of your own power and 350w from the motor (i.e. 500w in total) then once you hit 25kmh your are going to need to put that 500w+ by yourself to maintain that speed.
The only motor on that graph that has enough resistance to cause an issue is the MGU and that's because of the nature of it's design. Take the chain off any of the others and spin the cranks with the motor off and you will find very little resistance. The TQ bikes are always held up as an example of an easy to pedal bike without the motor yet it's one of the worst on that graph which points to it being more to do with the fact that TQ bikes are low weight rather anything to do weight motor "resistance".
Well I've got experience of pedalling a Levo with the motor off, and a Fuel+ with the motor off, and there was a massive difference in resistance, the TQ feels exactly like pedalling a manual bike.
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever...
Just give me a motor that doesn't have boat loads of resistance after its cuts off and I'm happy to pedal with no assistance over whatever mph we all agree is acceptable.
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with...
People often blame motor resistance for the difficulty pedalling over the cut-off but IMO it's very little to do with that. It's more to do with your legs instantly having to double, triple or quadruple their output once the to motor drops. If you are riding at 24.99kmh with 150w of your own power and 350w from the motor (i.e. 500w in total) then once you hit 25kmh your are going to need to put that 500w+ by yourself to maintain that speed.
The only motor on that graph that has enough resistance to cause an issue is the MGU and that's because of the nature of it's design. Take the chain off any of the others and spin the cranks with the motor off and you will find very little resistance. The TQ bikes are always held up as an example of an easy to pedal bike without the motor yet it's one of the worst on that graph which points to it being more to do with the fact that TQ bikes are low weight rather anything to do weight motor "resistance".
The "recency bias" in the legs is definitely real. But there's another important point to make here, and that's frame design. A lot of brands will run less antisquat in their e-bikes than they would in a regular bike, because the motor helps combat the bobbing (by making the pedal stroke smoother), and a few watts lost are worth it to gain suspension performance/comfort when descending. The TQ bikes you mention likely have better pedaling characteristics built into the frame because they were designed to run with much less motor support.
Well I've got experience of pedalling a Levo with the motor off, and a Fuel+ with the motor off, and there was a massive difference in...
Well I've got experience of pedalling a Levo with the motor off, and a Fuel+ with the motor off, and there was a massive difference in resistance, the TQ feels exactly like pedalling a manual bike.
What was the weight difference between your Levo and Fuel+? I noticed a surpisingly big difference difference in pedalling my Levo gen 3 with the battery in vs. out which is about a 3.5-4kg difference.
Also just to be clear, I am not saying there's no difference between motor brands when it comes how the motors feel to pedal when not engaged just that most of the pedalling thorough treacle felling you feel when over the speed cut off is down to the physics of needing to make up for the lost watts yourself rather than small differences in motor drag/friction.
I'm a pretty big Bafang motor fan. Have 2 Vitus E-Mythique bikes that have the M510. Both have over 1500 miles on them. The best thing is the ability to repair them yourself. They make them super easy to work on and parts are readily available (although you have to wait on them from overseas). Both of my motors have been through at least 1 if not 2 power distribution boards in the motor (all because of water ingress, not entirely their fault). The board is 15 bucks and takes about an hour to change. I keep one on the shelf now just incase. I just like the ability to repair.
I'm a pretty big Bafang motor fan. Have 2 Vitus E-Mythique bikes that have the M510. Both have over 1500 miles on them. The best thing...
I'm a pretty big Bafang motor fan. Have 2 Vitus E-Mythique bikes that have the M510. Both have over 1500 miles on them. The best thing is the ability to repair them yourself. They make them super easy to work on and parts are readily available (although you have to wait on them from overseas). Both of my motors have been through at least 1 if not 2 power distribution boards in the motor (all because of water ingress, not entirely their fault). The board is 15 bucks and takes about an hour to change. I keep one on the shelf now just incase. I just like the ability to repair.
Wait are we just going to ignore this? These values aren't trivial
I really feel it on my M1 Avinox on flat-ish trails. If I'm going downhill the momentum I'm carrying makes it mostly a non factor. It's also a helpful sign to check my speed bc I'm not a pro and have to go to work tomorrow to earn money to support my family.
At first I also thought that the M1 has a huge amount of resistance. But I've found since that 1. the theory of @DylanJM definitely is true but also 2. tires make a huuuge difference. I changed the rear tire from MM supersoft to Albert soft and the difference in feeling the cutoff was surprising TBH.
I'm not so sure anymore if I could be able to feel a difference on same geo, same tired E vs non-E.
@sspomer and @Jason_Schroeder I just listened to the recent Inside Line pod where y'all were perplexed by the Avinox haters. I wanted to provide some honest insight into this: for many of us, it's because they're higher power than Class 1 and we worry that they're going to jeopardize e-bike trail access. I'd like to see DJI and Specialized eat dirt since they don't care one iota about trail access dynamics.
I'd love to hear you start calling Avinox (and others) out on being over 750 watts and not Class 1. It's maddening whenever there's a review that doesn't bring this up. I always thought the slippery slope arguments were hyperbolic, but here we are.
My hips don't have much cartilage left (replacement incoming) so I can only ride these days due to e-bikes. I don't want to lose that. I spent years successfully fighting for trail access, so I understand how policy makers act: nothing.... nothing.... nothing.... then a ridiculous over-reaction. I worry that the blatant flaunting of Class 1 by the market leader is going to cause an over-reaction that will be very bad for us.
I sure hope policy makers do something rational in this regard. But history shows that they not only over-react, but they get important details wrong most of the time, and then we're stuck with crap rules/regs that are very hard to change. It's a real risk.
Taken from anther website: (Im also happy to see TQ Stuck to 750w instead of chasing the high unnecessary numbers)2027 Trek Fuel+ Dual battery approx end...
Taken from anther website: (Im also happy to see TQ Stuck to 750w instead of chasing the high unnecessary numbers)
2027 Trek Fuel+ Dual battery approx end of jan available. Dealer orders now live
Well I've got experience of pedalling a Levo with the motor off, and a Fuel+ with the motor off, and there was a massive difference in resistance, the TQ feels exactly like pedalling a manual bike.
The "recency bias" in the legs is definitely real. But there's another important point to make here, and that's frame design. A lot of brands will run less antisquat in their e-bikes than they would in a regular bike, because the motor helps combat the bobbing (by making the pedal stroke smoother), and a few watts lost are worth it to gain suspension performance/comfort when descending. The TQ bikes you mention likely have better pedaling characteristics built into the frame because they were designed to run with much less motor support.
What was the weight difference between your Levo and Fuel+? I noticed a surpisingly big difference difference in pedalling my Levo gen 3 with the battery in vs. out which is about a 3.5-4kg difference.
Also just to be clear, I am not saying there's no difference between motor brands when it comes how the motors feel to pedal when not engaged just that most of the pedalling thorough treacle felling you feel when over the speed cut off is down to the physics of needing to make up for the lost watts yourself rather than small differences in motor drag/friction.
I'm a pretty big Bafang motor fan. Have 2 Vitus E-Mythique bikes that have the M510. Both have over 1500 miles on them. The best thing is the ability to repair them yourself. They make them super easy to work on and parts are readily available (although you have to wait on them from overseas). Both of my motors have been through at least 1 if not 2 power distribution boards in the motor (all because of water ingress, not entirely their fault). The board is 15 bucks and takes about an hour to change. I keep one on the shelf now just incase. I just like the ability to repair.
Ya I like my bafang too
Wait are we just going to ignore this? These values aren't trivial
I really feel it on my M1 Avinox on flat-ish trails. If I'm going downhill the momentum I'm carrying makes it mostly a non factor. It's also a helpful sign to check my speed bc I'm not a pro and have to go to work tomorrow to earn money to support my family.
At first I also thought that the M1 has a huge amount of resistance. But I've found since that 1. the theory of @DylanJM definitely is true but also 2. tires make a huuuge difference. I changed the rear tire from MM supersoft to Albert soft and the difference in feeling the cutoff was surprising TBH.
I'm not so sure anymore if I could be able to feel a difference on same geo, same tired E vs non-E.
@sspomer and @Jason_Schroeder I just listened to the recent Inside Line pod where y'all were perplexed by the Avinox haters. I wanted to provide some honest insight into this: for many of us, it's because they're higher power than Class 1 and we worry that they're going to jeopardize e-bike trail access. I'd like to see DJI and Specialized eat dirt since they don't care one iota about trail access dynamics.
I'd love to hear you start calling Avinox (and others) out on being over 750 watts and not Class 1. It's maddening whenever there's a review that doesn't bring this up. I always thought the slippery slope arguments were hyperbolic, but here we are.
My hips don't have much cartilage left (replacement incoming) so I can only ride these days due to e-bikes. I don't want to lose that. I spent years successfully fighting for trail access, so I understand how policy makers act: nothing.... nothing.... nothing.... then a ridiculous over-reaction. I worry that the blatant flaunting of Class 1 by the market leader is going to cause an over-reaction that will be very bad for us.
I sure hope policy makers do something rational in this regard. But history shows that they not only over-react, but they get important details wrong most of the time, and then we're stuck with crap rules/regs that are very hard to change. It's a real risk.
Taken from anther website: (Im also happy to see TQ Stuck to 750w instead of chasing the high unnecessary numbers)
2027 Trek Fuel+ Dual battery approx end of jan available. Dealer orders now live
Motor
TQ-HPR X, 120 Nm, 750w, 700% support
Battery
Trek 980 Modular Battery System, 330wh 1p battery + 650wh 2p battery
Some models coming with new fox RIDGE suspension
I hope this battery approach catches on
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