What do you mean amplify. Weight transfer gives you more grip. It only makes sense to have more braking power (i.e. bigger rotor) in the front. QED...
What do you mean amplify. Weight transfer gives you more grip. It only makes sense to have more braking power (i.e. bigger rotor) in the front.
QED: literally every car on the road. If it has a rear weight bias (Porsche for example) or a near 50 50 split, the difference front to rear is smaller, but still present.
Cars and motos have engine braking and can take some of the load off the rear brake, particularly when coasting downhill, something downhill bikes do a...
Cars and motos have engine braking and can take some of the load off the rear brake, particularly when coasting downhill, something downhill bikes do a lot of.
Yes weight transfer gives you more grip. In turn, you don’t have to brake as much to achieve the same reduction in speed as you would from the rear brake. Assuming you’re trying to brake somewhat evenly, your rear brake will naturally accumulate more heat over the duration of a run.
Just learn to use your brain and fingers properly man!
So moving the flange out will give more lateral stiffness, and more vertical compliance. I wonder if it's the vertical or lateral compliance that the rider...
So moving the flange out will give more lateral stiffness, and more vertical compliance. I wonder if it's the vertical or lateral compliance that the rider feels?
I thought we decided in last year's tech rumors that mountain bike wheels experience almost no vertical compliance? All wheel compliance (ignoring the tire, obviously) is lateral or torsional
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.
There’s a DH being released in about a month. When it’s released the full range of build kits won’t be available until spring of 27’ because of certain drivetrain and brake components.
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear (29er rear, 32t chairing front) is thrilling, and others countered that you'll nuke the battery in minutes, and that much power on singletrack is useless, and I agree.
That's why I'm really excited for the HR monitor feature the 2nd gen avinox has (it modulates assistance to keep your HR in a reconfigured zone). Low assistance in tight singletrack, then crank it up on the wide open fir roads! My favorite trails tend to have both on the way up. I bet that even with 1kw of assistance I could keep my HR high
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.There’s a DH being released in about a month. When...
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.
There’s a DH being released in about a month. When it’s released the full range of build kits won’t be available until spring of 27’ because of certain drivetrain and brake components.
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right around the corner and having riders and both! This is just speculation but I can’t imagine they’re being a more perfect release time for any Bike right now
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.There’s a DH being released in about a month. When...
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.
There’s a DH being released in about a month. When it’s released the full range of build kits won’t be available until spring of 27’ because of certain drivetrain and brake components.
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right...
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right around the corner and having riders and both! This is just speculation but I can’t imagine they’re being a more perfect release time for any Bike right now
A big part of the braking discussion is completely ignoring gradient and suspension performance. On flat tracks you can brake relatively evenly; the front wheel gets load transferred to it and can do more braking. On steep tracks you are already loading the fork a lot, heavy braking causes even more load which on a progressive air spring now means a firmer spring rate and less traction. That is probably even a secondary effect from the increased weight transfer and pitch forward when you start trying to brake heavily on the front. Think about exiting a typical rock roll on a trail bike; you often want to come off the front brake a bit right before the compression at the end to let the fork have some more room to work.
The tendency to use (and drag) rear brake is likely to just manage this at the expense of less overall braking force. Dragging the brake is the worst case for heat management and larger rotors can help offset this. The increased size of the rotor is almost certainly secondary to the increased mass of the rotor. You aren't dragging the front brake so you don't need the bigger rotor there.
So moving the flange out will give more lateral stiffness, and more vertical compliance. I wonder if it's the vertical or lateral compliance that the rider...
So moving the flange out will give more lateral stiffness, and more vertical compliance. I wonder if it's the vertical or lateral compliance that the rider feels?
I thought we decided in last year's tech rumors that mountain bike wheels experience almost no vertical compliance? All wheel compliance (ignoring the tire, obviously) is...
I thought we decided in last year's tech rumors that mountain bike wheels experience almost no vertical compliance? All wheel compliance (ignoring the tire, obviously) is lateral or torsional
Not sure if it's vertical compliance or reduced shock transmission, but my Berd-laced wheels definitely feel more compliant.
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear...
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear (29er rear, 32t chairing front) is thrilling, and others countered that you'll nuke the battery in minutes, and that much power on singletrack is useless, and I agree.
That's why I'm really excited for the HR monitor feature the 2nd gen avinox has (it modulates assistance to keep your HR in a reconfigured zone). Low assistance in tight singletrack, then crank it up on the wide open fir roads! My favorite trails tend to have both on the way up. I bet that even with 1kw of assistance I could keep my HR high
New avenue for digital doping - feed your HM a generated signal at your max heart-rate in order to force the motor to provide max assistance.
Something i've always had in my head about braking is - You use the rear brake when you dont want to go faster, to control your speed. And you use the front brake when you want to slow down. (or both brakes rather)
Also, the difference in airflow the calipers get front/rear is quite big. I did some bedding in down a fire-road that has about 250m of descending, where I pulled the brakes equally hard for an extended period. The difference in temperature between the calipers was huge. The front caliper was lukewarm, while the rear caliper was scorching. Obviously it still gets airflow, but not as much/good as the front caliper does. Did not feel the discs, but I can imagine the front disc stays way cooler than the rear. I would assume its similar for the world cup pros, especially on the steep tracks where they drag the rear alot. I assume they also dont want to be super heavy on the front brake to keep the fork up in its travel, both for body position and "comfort"
So a bigger rear disc is probably the way to go there. And why they dont match the front disc, not sure, but I guess they just dont need it?
It has little to do with engine braking. Everything to do with grip. Tldr: Front slows you down with large bursts of power, rear keeps your speed...
It has little to do with engine braking. Everything to do with grip.
Tldr: Front slows you down with large bursts of power, rear keeps your speed in check with longer duration braking events.
Don't need data acquisition to try going 20km/h on just about any surface,then using each brake individually and see how fast can you stop.
Or ride down in'n'out burger with front only vs rear only. Pretty sure only one of those options is viable.
I imagine the reasoning behind big rotor in the back is heat dissipation, as you'll do a lot more braking in the rear overall. But if you need to abruptly shut down, the rear is pretty useless unless you're in some sort of a compression scenario. Not sure why not run 220 in the front as well, maybe there isn't that much hard braking going on, but the rear still works hard to maintain control, hence the bigger rotor in the rear.
You are absolutely right that front brake does the heavy braking while rear is for speed control/dragging scenario so it gets hotter than front and stays hot most of the time. That might be the answer for the question why some people run smaller front rotors, they most likely prefer feel of sintered SRAM pads and they need to keep them warm enough to be in their optimal temp range. So they use smaller front rotors that gets hot faster and holds more heat. Perhaps if we had limitless amount of braking power, we could universally apply this logic, where heat management is the only question. One more thing to note is that with mullet setup, 220front gives roughly the same mechanical advantage as 200mm on smaller rear wheel.
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.There’s a DH being released in about a month. When...
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.
There’s a DH being released in about a month. When it’s released the full range of build kits won’t be available until spring of 27’ because of certain drivetrain and brake components.
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right...
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right around the corner and having riders and both! This is just speculation but I can’t imagine they’re being a more perfect release time for any Bike right now
Probably santa cruz as well. I think theres spy shots of a chunky looking unbadged proto calioer on Jacksons bike floating around the intereebz
Are any of us getting front brake fade in a big way? Maybe if you have huge sustained steep trails? I've not experienced it at Pleney...
Are any of us getting front brake fade in a big way? Maybe if you have huge sustained steep trails? I've not experienced it at Pleney on rental bikes with 200 f&r, less knowledge of where the line goes, and lots of brake dragging.
I've been running 220r 200f on the park and ebike for a while now and have not experienced horrible brake fade on local steeps (XT's and now Mavens). Local steep with 1,500ft drop with 3 flat off the brakes sections in between the steeps. I've been able to get some fade on the ebike with the 220r on organic Maven pads. No fade using Galfer purples or sintered SRAM pads on that same setup and trail though. Never any on the 200 front with sintered pads. On "normal" trails I'm using my rear brake way more than my front.
I use the front brake way more than the back because it's the only brake that actually stops the bike. I usually change front pads twice...
I use the front brake way more than the back because it's the only brake that actually stops the bike. I usually change front pads twice before changing my rear ones. I run 203mm front rotor with ceramic pads and 180mm rear rotor with ceramic pads. I have a gully (chable) type trail which is basically 1:30mins of braking super hard and it's the ultimate brake test. Most of my front brakes fade down there.
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear...
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear (29er rear, 32t chairing front) is thrilling, and others countered that you'll nuke the battery in minutes, and that much power on singletrack is useless, and I agree.
That's why I'm really excited for the HR monitor feature the 2nd gen avinox has (it modulates assistance to keep your HR in a reconfigured zone). Low assistance in tight singletrack, then crank it up on the wide open fir roads! My favorite trails tend to have both on the way up. I bet that even with 1kw of assistance I could keep my HR high
1st gen M1 can do it too, but I found it still to be quite buggy. It messes with the non-HR-modes. Also I've found that my HR isn't lower on the DH so I often get more Power on the DH then on the climbs. Stopped using the feature because of that.
I am pretty shit on jumps and as far as I can tell in bikeparks I am far from alone. I wonder how well the system can recognise the shit "in air technique" of your average rider and distinguish it from a WC DH pro about to lose control...
Ok you dingleberries. Rather than debating the merit of which way to mullet your rotors, why not just run 220 front and back?
I wonder when we can download it? I haven’t seen it yet in app
Weighs too much /s
Just learn to use your brain and fingers properly man!
Might help in non-biking scenarios
I thought we decided in last year's tech rumors that mountain bike wheels experience almost no vertical compliance? All wheel compliance (ignoring the tire, obviously) is lateral or torsional
Not looking to put a stop to the brake discussion… but here’s a new shimano saint rumour.
There’s a DH being released in about a month. When it’s released the full range of build kits won’t be available until spring of 27’ because of certain drivetrain and brake components.
How long before we go full circle to Penny Farthings again?
Probably true of countless bike setup tips yet here we are
System with it apparently available in europe on the Astars site, available in the US by end of year. And the article says downloadable via the app.
'Il sistema Tech-Air® MX con l’algoritmo MTB Downhill è disponibile in Europa sul sito ufficiale Alpinestars e presso i rivenditori autorizzati, con debutto previsto negli Stati Uniti entro la fine dell’anno.' Alpinestars presenta l'algoritmo dedicato al Downhill per il sistema airbag Tech-Air MX | MTB Mag
I mentioned before that blasting up a fire road and hitting the 20mph cutoff on a grade that normally has me in the 3rd lowest gear (29er rear, 32t chairing front) is thrilling, and others countered that you'll nuke the battery in minutes, and that much power on singletrack is useless, and I agree.
That's why I'm really excited for the HR monitor feature the 2nd gen avinox has (it modulates assistance to keep your HR in a reconfigured zone). Low assistance in tight singletrack, then crank it up on the wide open fir roads! My favorite trails tend to have both on the way up. I bet that even with 1kw of assistance I could keep my HR high
And I bet that downhill bike will be the Norco team! Should good timing to release that with the World Cup just happening and hardline right around the corner and having riders and both! This is just speculation but I can’t imagine they’re being a more perfect release time for any Bike right now
It's definitely the Norco
A big part of the braking discussion is completely ignoring gradient and suspension performance. On flat tracks you can brake relatively evenly; the front wheel gets load transferred to it and can do more braking. On steep tracks you are already loading the fork a lot, heavy braking causes even more load which on a progressive air spring now means a firmer spring rate and less traction. That is probably even a secondary effect from the increased weight transfer and pitch forward when you start trying to brake heavily on the front. Think about exiting a typical rock roll on a trail bike; you often want to come off the front brake a bit right before the compression at the end to let the fork have some more room to work.
The tendency to use (and drag) rear brake is likely to just manage this at the expense of less overall braking force. Dragging the brake is the worst case for heat management and larger rotors can help offset this. The increased size of the rotor is almost certainly secondary to the increased mass of the rotor. You aren't dragging the front brake so you don't need the bigger rotor there.
Not sure if it's vertical compliance or reduced shock transmission, but my Berd-laced wheels definitely feel more compliant.
Can you define "shock transmission"
New avenue for digital doping - feed your HM a generated signal at your max heart-rate in order to force the motor to provide max assistance.
Reduction in vibration at your hands and feet. Pretty noticeable on short-travel and HT, hence their increased use in XC over the last several years.
Something i've always had in my head about braking is - You use the rear brake when you dont want to go faster, to control your speed. And you use the front brake when you want to slow down. (or both brakes rather)
Also, the difference in airflow the calipers get front/rear is quite big. I did some bedding in down a fire-road that has about 250m of descending, where I pulled the brakes equally hard for an extended period. The difference in temperature between the calipers was huge. The front caliper was lukewarm, while the rear caliper was scorching. Obviously it still gets airflow, but not as much/good as the front caliper does. Did not feel the discs, but I can imagine the front disc stays way cooler than the rear. I would assume its similar for the world cup pros, especially on the steep tracks where they drag the rear alot. I assume they also dont want to be super heavy on the front brake to keep the fork up in its travel, both for body position and "comfort"
So a bigger rear disc is probably the way to go there. And why they dont match the front disc, not sure, but I guess they just dont need it?
You are absolutely right that front brake does the heavy braking while rear is for speed control/dragging scenario so it gets hotter than front and stays hot most of the time. That might be the answer for the question why some people run smaller front rotors, they most likely prefer feel of sintered SRAM pads and they need to keep them warm enough to be in their optimal temp range. So they use smaller front rotors that gets hot faster and holds more heat. Perhaps if we had limitless amount of braking power, we could universally apply this logic, where heat management is the only question. One more thing to note is that with mullet setup, 220front gives roughly the same mechanical advantage as 200mm on smaller rear wheel.
I always thought the small rotor on the back was to reduce power so you don’t over-brake.
Bummed to see this
Probably santa cruz as well. I think theres spy shots of a chunky looking unbadged proto calioer on Jacksons bike floating around the intereebz
A lot of steep riding around the Alps does that, plus I do enjoy nose turns and nose manuals =)
That’s why I run a smaller one. I lock up the rear way easier. I don’t need that stabby bite like the front.
Can we speculate on whether or not there new Saint will have a clutch? I’m a pretty shit detective but could the dark grey bit be an on/off toggle?
I'd wager no, just because all the new stuff moved away from it, and that attachment to the cage looks the same as the dual spring jawn.
No clutch just an insanely tight spring. Finger snapping goodness
1st gen M1 can do it too, but I found it still to be quite buggy. It messes with the non-HR-modes. Also I've found that my HR isn't lower on the DH so I often get more Power on the DH then on the climbs. Stopped using the feature because of that.
I am pretty shit on jumps and as far as I can tell in bikeparks I am far from alone. I wonder how well the system can recognise the shit "in air technique" of your average rider and distinguish it from a WC DH pro about to lose control...
I got the new XT cable derailleur and the spring is fine, I think its better than the clutch in old XT.
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