For what it's worth: I'd still rather have all my tech rumors in one place instead of having to subscribe to a new thread for every...
For what it's worth: I'd still rather have all my tech rumors in one place instead of having to subscribe to a new thread for every new rumor.
The current concept of one, singular annual tech rumors thread would work beautifully well if everyone just stuck to posting actual tech news and rumors.
The problem is the guys endlessly talking themselves in circles or posting e-bike content (-for which there is a separate thread) or starting completely redundant discussions (like the 78th discussion on the feasibility of gearboxes). Maybe, what this thread needs is a more hands-on approach to moderation and a more aggressive policy around deleting off-topic posts and comments.
Two words in the title of this thread make everything relevant and on-topic. Tech and innovation.
If there was strictly a “tech rumors” thread, it would inevitably discuss the technology that a product is competing against or replacing. There’s really no way around it. If you aren’t going to discuss the relevance of a new product or innovation, then what’s the point?
As far as Ebike derailments go, the separate thread is nice. But you have to argue that 90% of the tech and innovation in MTB right now is because of Ebike market dynamics.
Thanks for an actual answer!I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service"...
Thanks for an actual answer!
I can definitely agree with the "if you do need to deal with it, it's not just locally available parts and service". It is actually something that keeps me off many boutique parts..well besides budget these days..
It is a very solid argument that needs to be overcome to change it, no shops will stock belts until they're quite common. And that does take someone who believes the benefits outweigh the risk.
I'm having a harder time with the weight and efficiency argument. Just compare an Enduro bike from pre-2020 and anything today. They got way heavier, beefed up, downhill tires etc. DH tires alone make the same weight difference, and are way more pain to overcome than a few percent in drivetrain losses compared to a clean chain in a straight chain line. So why is that argument going around for years yet is rather inconsistent regarding its benefits?
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy...
Very few normal people do pedally rides on DH tires. Only a few vocal people on forums, certain reviewers, ex-pros, and all these folks have crazy high fitness. I guess maybe people in Phoenix where the rocks are razors and the rides are short. Bike weight matters a whole lot less than tire efficiency, especially for us humans who are bigger than average.
For people I ride with, in the PNW, we're always struggling to keep up with one or two friends who seemingly float up the climbs. Pedaling efficiency still matters for bike enjoyment, a lot. E-bikes are where gearboxes have potential, they'll never be mainstream on mountian bikes, ever, because physics and friends.
I'm mostly a sea-level XC rider these days, and mostly ride fast tires. My trailbike came with Minions, and I took it on a trip to Tahoe when it was new. Did a loop in the Tahoe-Donner area that was about 35 miles with 3500' of climbing with a lot of black. That was punishing. I swapped out the Minions for Forekaster/Rekon for a trip to Sedona, and that was a much more enjoyable experience. Steep braking performance with the Minions is pretty insane though.
As of right now, I think gearboxes should be looked at on a per case basis..Ebikes with MGU, definitely. DH, worth looking at.. Especially if you're not...
As of right now, I think gearboxes should be looked at on a per case basis..
Ebikes with MGU, definitely.
DH, worth looking at.. Especially if you're not a racer.
Beyond those, questionable for MTB.. But, I'm sure improvements will be made..
Absolutely. But it's not hard to play this out: the MGU is positioned to become a mainstream option, and plenty of riders will feel the benefits of shedding all that weight from the rear axle and removing the clutch's influence on suspension action. If it works well on ebikes, it's only logical that demand will grow to bring it to pedal bikes.
The recurring counterargument that "derailleurs can easily be self-serviced" doesn't hold up. As the tech develops and becomes more widespread, it's clear that a gearbox system will come out significantly ahead on maintenance and durability.
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so...
All the reviewers who rode that bike (Priority) said it was a slog to ride, but got slightly better over time with miles put on so the gears break in. I wonder if there's a reason that Pinion doesn't pre break-in their gearboxes before shipping them out. It would likely make the consumer experience much better.
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for...
Not wanting 32" wheels I understand. Not wanting a future world with gearboxes is baffling. Too many luddites in here I guess. Which is ironic for being a tech rumors thread.
Speaking for myself - it's not that I don't want a GB - it's that I don't want a worse drive-system than I currently have. If GBs get to the point where the weight penalty is small and efficiency is comparable, I'll be riding them. I think many of the folks you think are Luddiltes are really just people how value performance and don't break a lot of DRs (I've been riding since the late 80's, and I've yet to break one).
I think part of the problem is that "MTB" covers a really diverse range of riding styles, and for the different styles, a variety of engineering...
I think part of the problem is that "MTB" covers a really diverse range of riding styles, and for the different styles, a variety of engineering requirements and interests. It's easy for people (myself included) to only consider the style(s) of riding they do when they promote or bash posts.
I agree that there might be interesting trickle-down technology from the latest "moped" innovations in MGUs for predominantly gravity-driven forms of pedal MTBs. While the idea of a gearbox that is comparable in weight in efficiency to a conventional 1X drive train is exciting, from the engineering side of things, I do not think it is possible. I love innovation, but for me, maybe that comes in the form of a Madrone, rebuildable, modifiable Jab rather than chucking the DR for a gearbox that doesn't pedal as well, and weighs a bunch more. That's the best fit for the kind of riding I like to do, but certainly not for everyone. I have some friends that use them in adventure bikes, and they love them, but those bikes with all their junk attached are around 50 lbs, so the extra 3 lbs or so are perhaps lost in the noise. None of them would consider a GB on their daily XC or trail bikes.
Dissing folks based on what they like to wear when they ride, or the frame material they choose seems inappropriate for this forum, but certainly not the internet as a whole. I've found that most of the time, people here are better than that.
Dudes in their mid 30s will shit on Lycra then go out wearing skinny jeans. Brother the call is coming from inside the house!
I wonder what’s the smallest battery you could put in this thing to handle shifting and overcome drag without actually adding any assist. It’d be sick to have a 750Wh removable battery and a 50Wh integrated battery for travel/bike park/regular riding
they actually say: ""stay tuned"" to the lead out question...
do I take the bait and think a warehouse of (very old) enduro frames miraculously burns to the ground and there is a "new Enduro" in production?? Would we even like it? there is admitted drag in the OTBB system here ....
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)did they change anything (besides the Direct mount)...
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?
will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)
did they change anything (besides the Direct mount) about these cranks at all?
and has Shimano lost the thread when they take this long to release something?
Sponsored riders were using spider less saints for the past two seasons. Nothing new here.
with significantly expanded access to various outside the norm construction techniques.... will more small boutique makers be able to ramp their mfg capacities in the shrinking market?
combined with inflationary affects and DTC sales, it seems like we could see a bunch of weird bikes being better available int he coming years, if the economy doesn't kill the makers and designers off.....
wound carbon, epoxy and printed lugs seems like I could do it, and im an idiot.
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)did they change anything (besides the Direct mount)...
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?
will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)
did they change anything (besides the Direct mount) about these cranks at all?
and has Shimano lost the thread when they take this long to release something?
Sponsored riders were using spider less saints for the past two seasons. Nothing new here.
I mean did they change the arm at all? it looks like the same super dialed indestructible shape and finish ( not indestructible) as before. just spider less.
but when oh when will it come spec'd on a session or yeti dh bike?
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip. Everyone wants them.
We forget bikes are products, not some B2B contract deliverable that has to meet a spec sheet. What tech could realistically convince everyone who has an amazing bike now (and probably got it on sale) to drop $6k+ on a new bike? Maybe it’s gearboxes, maybe it isn’t, but there’s no denying they’re in the running.
If the industry wants to sell me a new park/DH frame to replace my awesome lifetime warranty one I have now, then it needs to have a gearbox. It blows my mind how great and robust my tires, suspension, and brakes are yet I’m still always disappointed with my drivetrain.
All this drivetrain efficiency/Gearbox discussion is making me think about the joy I get from riding my singlespeed.
Single speed is still relevant really. Like racing rally locally and drinking beers on the podium. Or just having a big day out alone. Stripped down to nothing but the machine and the quads. Shits brilliant. Wonder when we see some really shiny new single speed drops. Trek used to have one every year. But why wait for the big corpo trash when you can just take all The batteries and crap off your bike throw a Melvin or reverse on there and go get after that shit ???
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient...
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip. Everyone wants them.
We forget bikes are products, not some B2B contract deliverable that has to meet a spec sheet. What tech could realistically convince everyone who has an amazing bike now (and probably got it on sale) to drop $6k+ on a new bike? Maybe it’s gearboxes, maybe it isn’t, but there’s no denying they’re in the running.
If the industry wants to sell me a new park/DH frame to replace my awesome lifetime warranty one I have now, then it needs to have a gearbox. It blows my mind how great and robust my tires, suspension, and brakes are yet I’m still always disappointed with my drivetrain.
I agree . I’m really really really sick of the constant work I have to do on ALL THE DRIVETRAINS in my family of four’s garage. Yeah they work, 12 speed is good for us, and all brands have little things to help them run better but it’s a heavy wear item and a high cost paddock over here at the moment . 11 year old thrashes everything (sideways impacts) , 13 year old found watts ( and won’t listen to proper shifting “technique”) over the winter, and the wife is a diesel engine just ripping 12 speed chains through the wringer for hours of climbing (psychopath) … and we aren’t even electrified yet …
But would i swap the gearbox out when the frame gets swapped? Maybe? Kinda makes sense from here … what a wild time to be alive.
with significantly expanded access to various outside the norm construction techniques.... will more small boutique makers be able to ramp their mfg capacities in the shrinking...
with significantly expanded access to various outside the norm construction techniques.... will more small boutique makers be able to ramp their mfg capacities in the shrinking market?
combined with inflationary affects and DTC sales, it seems like we could see a bunch of weird bikes being better available int he coming years, if the economy doesn't kill the makers and designers off.....
wound carbon, epoxy and printed lugs seems like I could do it, and im an idiot.
I imagine small boutique manufacturers are in a much better spot to survive off a handful of expensive bikes compared to brands like specialized and trek that can’t meet the prices set by the Asian brands for their high volume stuff and can’t possibly move enough Levo 4 X’s to compensate
Personally I'd rather have this thread be quieter than be completely overtaken by ebike tech.
It's either going to be progressively getting quieter or E bike talk will have to sneak in. That is where all the innovation is coming from in the next few years.
P.s gearboxes are epic and should be the future but my experience of riding on a pinion box is akin to that of riding with a regular bottom bracket that is full of gravel and has blown bearings. Pretty slow and gross. Quiet on the descents though.
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao...
Everybody serving the gearbox coolaid and how ebikes are getting them and how that will trickle down to pedal bikes, remember that the Avinox and Gaobao or whatever they are called have a CVT gearbox using two electric motors. That kind of a "gearbox" (integrated variable transmission to be precise) is wholly incompatible with bikes that do not have batteries.
The only viable gearbox option covering both ebikes and bikes is the Pinion which is, functionally (speaking in volumes), non existent in both camps.
As @Shinook and @Uncle Cliffy have said, the future has been promised for years now with nothing happening. Same as the year of the Linux. Except there Microsoft is shitting the bed so bad Linux is actually becoming a good option.
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.And four major DH teams on gearboxes.Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…Let’s see the downvote...
Just sitting in second place in current EDR standings.
And four major DH teams on gearboxes.
Yep, technology hasn’t changed in the last 25 years…
Let’s see the downvote of simple facts from the derailleur cabal.
“But I can buy a derailleur part at my local shop”
It might help if when people spoke about gearboxes they phrased it in a way that expressed why they thought they were a good idea, as opposed to screaming at people about why they were wrong about gearboxes.
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient...
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip. Everyone wants them.
We forget bikes are products, not some B2B contract deliverable that has to meet a spec sheet. What tech could realistically convince everyone who has an amazing bike now (and probably got it on sale) to drop $6k+ on a new bike? Maybe it’s gearboxes, maybe it isn’t, but there’s no denying they’re in the running.
If the industry wants to sell me a new park/DH frame to replace my awesome lifetime warranty one I have now, then it needs to have a gearbox. It blows my mind how great and robust my tires, suspension, and brakes are yet I’m still always disappointed with my drivetrain.
"We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip." Have you seen any data comparing the same compound, tread pattern, and casing durability for radial vs. conventional tires? I am sure that a sticky DH radial rolls slowly, but so does a sticky DH conventional tire. More trail oriented radials with faster rolling rubber and lighter casings are only just starting to come out, so I hadn't seen any real comparisons in terms of watts consumed.
I suppose if one wanted to be really comprehensive about it, one would also need to test the radials at the same pressure as a regular casing, and then test them again with the few extra psi that are typically recommended to compensate for the more flexible casing.
And, even more complicated, is the possibility that the radials might roll slower on smooth surfaces, but actually roll faster on bumpy terrain, due to a reduction in "suspension losses" as the more compliant casing may reduce the upward deflection of the bike and rider's mass.
I have a semi reliable source claiming the Norco Team DH bike is embargoed for the weekend of the Whistler WC.
The world cup team still seem to be in testing and development mode. At La Thuile they switched to air shocks and changed some of the linkage parts, bike still seems to be a work in progress to me. Be interesting to see how much adjustment the production bike has and if they release it soon.
It's possible they locked the production bike at a certain point and the world cup team is still fiddling extracting more performance. You don't need to produce what the team is riding, there could be differences to make the bike more palatable to the general public...
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)did they change anything (besides the Direct mount)...
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?
will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)
did they change anything (besides the Direct mount) about these cranks at all?
and has Shimano lost the thread when they take this long to release something?
Unfortunately, it seems like new Saint isn't close to releasing yet, at least as far as my Shimano Tech Rep knows. It's funny because that derailleur Goldstones on looks really close to being production ready and the cranks have been around forever. The brakes (I'm assuming they're new saint, the ones with the caliper that looks a bit like a maven caliper) definitely don't look production ready so they'll probably wait to drop the whole thing as a set. I would think a year out at least.
As of right now, I think gearboxes should be looked at on a per case basis..
Ebikes with MGU, definitely.
DH, worth looking at.. Especially if you're not a racer.
Beyond those, questionable for MTB.. But, I'm sure improvements will be made..
Two words in the title of this thread make everything relevant and on-topic. Tech and innovation.
If there was strictly a “tech rumors” thread, it would inevitably discuss the technology that a product is competing against or replacing. There’s really no way around it. If you aren’t going to discuss the relevance of a new product or innovation, then what’s the point?
As far as Ebike derailments go, the separate thread is nice. But you have to argue that 90% of the tech and innovation in MTB right now is because of Ebike market dynamics.
I'm mostly a sea-level XC rider these days, and mostly ride fast tires. My trailbike came with Minions, and I took it on a trip to Tahoe when it was new. Did a loop in the Tahoe-Donner area that was about 35 miles with 3500' of climbing with a lot of black. That was punishing. I swapped out the Minions for Forekaster/Rekon for a trip to Sedona, and that was a much more enjoyable experience. Steep braking performance with the Minions is pretty insane though.
Absolutely. But it's not hard to play this out: the MGU is positioned to become a mainstream option, and plenty of riders will feel the benefits of shedding all that weight from the rear axle and removing the clutch's influence on suspension action. If it works well on ebikes, it's only logical that demand will grow to bring it to pedal bikes.
The recurring counterargument that "derailleurs can easily be self-serviced" doesn't hold up. As the tech develops and becomes more widespread, it's clear that a gearbox system will come out significantly ahead on maintenance and durability.
Speaking for myself - it's not that I don't want a GB - it's that I don't want a worse drive-system than I currently have. If GBs get to the point where the weight penalty is small and efficiency is comparable, I'll be riding them. I think many of the folks you think are Luddiltes are really just people how value performance and don't break a lot of DRs (I've been riding since the late 80's, and I've yet to break one).
All this drivetrain efficiency/Gearbox discussion is making me think about the joy I get from riding my singlespeed.
Dudes in their mid 30s will shit on Lycra then go out wearing skinny jeans. Brother the call is coming from inside the house!
I wonder what’s the smallest battery you could put in this thing to handle shifting and overcome drag without actually adding any assist. It’d be sick to have a 750Wh removable battery and a 50Wh integrated battery for travel/bike park/regular riding
https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/inline/basic/20160701_UCI_DHEDR_LaThuile_…
seems like new saint is ready to go, anyone have an eta?
will it drive a Shimano gearbox? (I jest)
did they change anything (besides the Direct mount) about these cranks at all?
and has Shimano lost the thread when they take this long to release something?
https://youtu.be/D6dVxVffoPA
they actually say: ""stay tuned"" to the lead out question...
do I take the bait and think a warehouse of (very old) enduro frames miraculously burns to the ground and there is a "new Enduro" in production?? Would we even like it? there is admitted drag in the OTBB system here ....
Sponsored riders were using spider less saints for the past two seasons. Nothing new here.
with significantly expanded access to various outside the norm construction techniques.... will more small boutique makers be able to ramp their mfg capacities in the shrinking market?
combined with inflationary affects and DTC sales, it seems like we could see a bunch of weird bikes being better available int he coming years, if the economy doesn't kill the makers and designers off.....
wound carbon, epoxy and printed lugs seems like I could do it, and im an idiot.
I mean did they change the arm at all? it looks like the same super dialed indestructible shape and finish ( not indestructible) as before. just spider less.
but when oh when will it come spec'd on a session or yeti dh bike?
Personally I'd rather have this thread be quieter than be completely overtaken by ebike tech.
On gearboxes, I don’t think the average rider cares as much about efficiency as we think. We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip. Everyone wants them.
We forget bikes are products, not some B2B contract deliverable that has to meet a spec sheet. What tech could realistically convince everyone who has an amazing bike now (and probably got it on sale) to drop $6k+ on a new bike? Maybe it’s gearboxes, maybe it isn’t, but there’s no denying they’re in the running.
If the industry wants to sell me a new park/DH frame to replace my awesome lifetime warranty one I have now, then it needs to have a gearbox. It blows my mind how great and robust my tires, suspension, and brakes are yet I’m still always disappointed with my drivetrain.
Single speed is still relevant really. Like racing rally locally and drinking beers on the podium. Or just having a big day out alone. Stripped down to nothing but the machine and the quads. Shits brilliant. Wonder when we see some really shiny new single speed drops. Trek used to have one every year. But why wait for the big corpo trash when you can just take all The batteries and crap off your bike throw a Melvin or reverse on there and go get after that shit ???
I agree . I’m really really really sick of the constant work I have to do on ALL THE DRIVETRAINS in my family of four’s garage. Yeah they work, 12 speed is good for us, and all brands have little things to help them run better but it’s a heavy wear item and a high cost paddock over here at the moment . 11 year old thrashes everything (sideways impacts) , 13 year old found watts ( and won’t listen to proper shifting “technique”) over the winter, and the wife is a diesel engine just ripping 12 speed chains through the wringer for hours of climbing (psychopath) … and we aren’t even electrified yet …
But would i swap the gearbox out when the frame gets swapped? Maybe? Kinda makes sense from here … what a wild time to be alive.
I imagine small boutique manufacturers are in a much better spot to survive off a handful of expensive bikes compared to brands like specialized and trek that can’t meet the prices set by the Asian brands for their high volume stuff and can’t possibly move enough Levo 4 X’s to compensate
It's either going to be progressively getting quieter or E bike talk will have to sneak in. That is where all the innovation is coming from in the next few years.
P.s gearboxes are epic and should be the future but my experience of riding on a pinion box is akin to that of riding with a regular bottom bracket that is full of gravel and has blown bearings. Pretty slow and gross. Quiet on the descents though.
The New Norco DH bike dropping at Val di Sol is the rumour... I'm keen to get the geo and some more details
I have a semi reliable source claiming the Norco Team DH bike is embargoed for the weekend of the Whistler WC.
When do the new Yeti 6 bar pedal bikes drop?
It might help if when people spoke about gearboxes they phrased it in a way that expressed why they thought they were a good idea, as opposed to screaming at people about why they were wrong about gearboxes.
"We’re seeing this play out with radial tires. Less efficient, more grip." Have you seen any data comparing the same compound, tread pattern, and casing durability for radial vs. conventional tires? I am sure that a sticky DH radial rolls slowly, but so does a sticky DH conventional tire. More trail oriented radials with faster rolling rubber and lighter casings are only just starting to come out, so I hadn't seen any real comparisons in terms of watts consumed.
I suppose if one wanted to be really comprehensive about it, one would also need to test the radials at the same pressure as a regular casing, and then test them again with the few extra psi that are typically recommended to compensate for the more flexible casing.
And, even more complicated, is the possibility that the radials might roll slower on smooth surfaces, but actually roll faster on bumpy terrain, due to a reduction in "suspension losses" as the more compliant casing may reduce the upward deflection of the bike and rider's mass.
The world cup team still seem to be in testing and development mode. At La Thuile they switched to air shocks and changed some of the linkage parts, bike still seems to be a work in progress to me. Be interesting to see how much adjustment the production bike has and if they release it soon.
It's possible they locked the production bike at a certain point and the world cup team is still fiddling extracting more performance. You don't need to produce what the team is riding, there could be differences to make the bike more palatable to the general public...
when someone wins an enduro world cup on it
Unfortunately, it seems like new Saint isn't close to releasing yet, at least as far as my Shimano Tech Rep knows. It's funny because that derailleur Goldstones on looks really close to being production ready and the cranks have been around forever. The brakes (I'm assuming they're new saint, the ones with the caliper that looks a bit like a maven caliper) definitely don't look production ready so they'll probably wait to drop the whole thing as a set. I would think a year out at least.
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