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Adjustable rear travel at least?
New Tallboy all through this:
https://youtu.be/06aPj2jKe4U?si=n0VbMiFXlzlGwgF2
visual summary
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I’d love to see a shoot out of trail bikes using the same linkage designs. It would really interesting to start to dig a bit deeper as to what sets them apart - quality control, kinematics, maintenance, etc etc.
Loooks like a prooooocess eh
If we compare the new horst link tallboy with the Allied Fitz, Forbidden Reya and Transition Smuggler, there a few difference:
Tallboy is the only bike using a trunion shock most likely a 185x50, Smuggler and Fitz use a normal 210x50 shock and Reya use a 190x45 shock. So Reya most likely have a higher starting leverage ratio that could limit heavier rider that are getting close to the shock max pressure.
Reya, Smuggler and most likely Tallboy use double bearing setup at the chainstay. Santa Cruz does the same for the Bullit and Vala. Allied Fitz has no exploded view to confirm on their website.
Smuggler has only a axle for the lower main bearing, Reya and most likely Tallboy has 2 axle for the lower main & main linkage bearing.
QC wise, unless you are able to accurately check the tolerance on a sizable amount of each frame, hard to say but Santa Cruz QC in the past has been relatively good.
Reya got actual chainstay length change per frame size. New tallboy will most likely be 3-5mm max chainstay length change per frame size as with their other models.
Whichever bike has the best damper tune specced probably wins at that point. I'm pretty sure that's a big deciding factor between bikes with different linkage designs also though.
You would need control wheels, and tires at a minimum, and probably drivetrain also to get any useful data about which frame works better.
I'd be willing to bet the Tallboy has a 45 mm stroke. The Hightower has historically been on a 55 mm stroke shock family (early V2 models used 52,5 mm) so I wouldn't be surprised if they used a small shock.
I’d take a well designed and built frame with a lower spec damper over a misaligned, poorly thought out frame with a fancy one any day.
You can upgrade a damper, it’s much harder to upgrade out of bad engineering and manufacturing.
As has been said above, even then, some shock spec or kinematic choices will mean different things to different riders.
I'm not talking about damper architecture, Charger 2.1 vs 3.1. I'm talking about the individual tune that the bike manufacturer puts on the stock bike. The shock can have the same eye to eye and stroke dimensions + same Charger 3.1 damper, but one frame OEM uses medium compression tune, and a different frame OEM uses a light compression tune. That difference in stock tune can be more influential than leverage rate and a bunch of other factors unless the buyer/reviewer is going to do a bunch of aftermarket work.
If you're talking about stock bikes with equal build spec, and similar geo, the specifics of damper tune can have a huge effect on performance.
You're talking about testing similar linkages and travel... If they have similar Geo + Linkage setup + frame travel, they will probably have similar leverage rate and progression.. That's why I said Light Comp/Medium Rebound, Medium Comp/Medium Rebound shock tune differences would have a bigger effect on ride quality.
I saw that Adam Brayton was using the new Maxxis DHF in the european cup track preview in Fort William. Release date approaching soon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGjNXvOQq88
@Glory831Guy - even then, you can retune a shock easier than deal with a poorly thought out or manufactured frame.
True, but nowdays it's not necessarily gonna be one or the other. You could have two frames with the same tolerances and similar strength, and one of them has the better shock tune, so you like it more, that's all I'm saying. I would be surprised if there was a significant difference in frame stiffness/Kinematics with the same suspension layout and similar geo.
I'm sure many have gotten the email, but new Tallboy with CC frame in all builds, 300g lighter than previous version. Despite my disappointment on the travel and 4bar, looks pretty sharp.
Latest Bronson & Hightower: 150mm with 230x57.5 shock (2.6 LR)
Vala: 150mm with 205x60 shock (2.5 LR)
Last Tallboy: 120mm with 190x45 shock (2.67 LR)
New Tallboy: 130mm (?) with ~2.5-2.67 LR means ~48.75-52 shock needed; based on the above my guess is a 185x50 looking at the available sizes for the latest Super Deluxe Ultimate Flight Attendant.
If it’s still only 120mm rear though then it could definitely be the 165x45 or 185x47.5.
We’ll see soon! 😀
And here I am hoping it is using a 5Xmm shock, but I guess you make a fair point. I was thinking since the rear travel has supposedly has gone up 10mm now, they have moved on to a 185x55mm shock, possibly with a spacer to bring the stroke down to 50mm. But I guess we'll see tomorrow!
(Mostly hoping this because I already have a shock that would fit it then 😁 )
It's 185x50.
I'm not a fan of trunnion in general, but historically SC tolerances are pretty good and the design seems to be executed well, so I wouldn't expect any issues there.
Where does this leave the 5010? Dead? Still making the old VPP version? New update to bring the new frame/kinematic from the Bronson/Nomad?
Short travel mullet bikes are way more fun than they have any right to be. I hope they’re not going the way of the dodo.
300g sounds like so much but .66lb is not worth ditching VPP entirely to me.
Where are we at with the GT frames conspiracy for some of the SC bikes? I like that one. Tallboy providing some more material for the believers.
Well, I guess I’d love to ride the new Tallboy and then decide, how the move to a new system tastes.
The best feature imho of the VPP with a solid rear triangle was that all bearings were located in the rocker. Changing them was a breeze and there was no risk of damaging the carbon frame in the process.
I tend to ride my bikes as long as possible, since they became so great. (swapped annually when I used to work in a bike shop, industry deals etc, and geometry was still shitty and new bikes sometimes brought revelatory improvements, you know the drill)
I am curious how they implemented bearings in the new Tallboy. There is a bit of that on the Vala, but some bearings are sitting in carbon parts, if I am not mistaken.
Having to replace a perfectly fine frame for worn bearing seats or damaging one while working on it sucks. (Ever tried swapping bearings on a Rallon or Occam rear end…)
My wife’s Hightower LT from 2018 is a maintenance dream. That frame was peak Santa Cruz (apart from the slack seat angle, which doesn’t bother her on a size medium, but size L+ were compromised). It also has sleek carbon tubes and is light and quite a bit less than 3kg for a frame.
The newer ones are said to be more durable for heavy riders though.
The new Tallboy could be an absolutely fantastic bike though.
My first (rideable by today’s standards) mtb was a 2004 Heckler. 140/130 with the first Pike. (I owned several mtbs before that, even quite pricey ones, but honestly I wouldn’t like to ride those even around town today.)
That bike was so much fun, heavy and reliable like a tank, and I rode all disciplines on it.
That’s why you don’t buy transitions and buy Santa Cruz lol
Cable routing looks good
That shipment of revolts was pretty heartbreaking for everyone at evil that day…..
The bike itself was nothing short of brilliant imho, at the time of 26inch dh racing bikes, combined with Dave Weagle, Thomas, and Stevie? The marketing, the design AND THE SWEET RIDE, man that bike was something.
I think that’s a really good second try, aluminum MX dh race / park sled REVOLT2 could be incredible.
…..But market analytics demonstrated by intense this week shows: it would probably only sell in Chinese urban centers….
But can it take a coil!????
Probably if you use a progressive spring.
It’s ~10% lighter comparing frame to frame to the previous Tallboy, which is more than I realized, but in the overall scheme of components getting heavier it may not be that noticeable. As someone currently with a HT3 I do think the improved dropper insertion depth and better braking performance compared to the previous gen VPP would make a better overall bike, but will be curious to see comparisons both climbing and descending with the prior TB.
Has anyone found any service kits to be available yet? As someone with an 'old' race face model I am not stoked (but also not overly surprised) by SRAM's move here but given that no one seems to even have an ETA for B1 service kits I highly doubt I'll be able to service my A1 any time this season...
Maybe this?
https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=115325
I got a service kit for A1 model from Fanatik back in Feb. Not sure if they are in stock currently.
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