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Ha... no, none of the ebikes you buy here have such a decal. I think I've seen a few with temporary ones but never permanent. I don't even recall exactly what was on them, since I took them off right away.
You should ride them both first.
I believe it is up to a total of 35 states that have adopted the three class structure for e-bikes. California and New Jersey are both taking things a step further, but true enforcement is lacking. There is nothing to stop anyone from advertising something as an eMTB, even if it is "out of class" and the brand can say that it is only for private property. (see https://ridebonnell.com/products/bonnell-775-mx sold as an ebike)
don't want to derail super hard on the ebike regs thing, but sounds like utah is taking steps w/ laws passed
I'm a fan of most of these policies. My only disagreement is over the mandatory online training courses, because mandatory online training courses have never taught anyone anything in the history of the world. But the rest of the rules make a lot of sense.
This e-bike/motorcycle/scooter/vespa space has been the absolute wild west, and has been steadily marching toward regulatory oversight for a while. It will be interesting to see how these regulations continue to play out.
For instance, New Jersey's recent e-bike regulations to the effect that "everything with a battery needs to be licensed and insured like a motorcycle" are an insane overcorrection. The Utah division between e-bikes and e-motorcycles makes a lot of sense (throttle, 750 watts, no pedals).
Also, do you think local news reporters are born talking like that, or is it like moving somewhere and picking up the accent?
What I don't understand is what IS an E-Motorcycle? Is any bike that doesn't meet classification an E-Moto? Is it sill an E-Moto if it doesn't have plates, blinkers, insurance etc? Does it need to be a legally certified motorcycle, such as a harley livewire, to fall into the category of legal road fairing vehicles?
All good questions. I'll raise another: licensing for a motorcycle (in Oregon at least) required attending an in-person safety class for multiple weeks and passing a check ride.
Surely we're not going to ask 16 year olds to do all that to ride to 7-11. Or maybe we are?
I agree that the jump in regulations from a bicycle (almost none) to a motorcycle (which is similar to a car in the eyes of the law) is pretty big. Like I said, it's currently the wild west and I'm watching with curiosity how the regulatory landscape develops around all these new electric mobility devices. Like this, which drives me crazy:
I think we're past the point of asking 16 year olds to enroll in safety classes, yep. A lot of these E-Motos do traffic speeds, even into highway speeds on some, and there's no way around that, you should have some safety classes under your belt to be riding that, even to 7/11. I'd expect a 16 year old to go to classes for those same speeds in a car or on a motorcycle.
The normative E-Bike stuff? I don't know if I think a license or insurance is needed, but it's really hard to tell some of the E-Bikes apart from an E-Moto. Take the Bonnell MX750, by all metrics that is an E-Moto, but obviously doesn't meet the DOT requirements for a legal motorcycle, and past that, it LOOKS like an E-Bike.
I think we're at the point where regulatory bodies need to step in and disallow sales of the "inbetween" bikes that are not E-Bikes and can never be properly made road legal. Adding new laws yearly is the legislative equivalent of "stop hitting yourself." Nip it in the bud.
I agree with both points (mandatory licensing with training classes and banning "in-between" mobility devices), and I think your arguments are well-reasoned and practical.
However, I have zero confidence that your wonderful and simple solutions will be will implemented, and instead I predict an insane hodgepodge of jurisdictions, conflicting standards, and varying degrees of enforcement.
If there's one thing I've learned from my degree and career in high compliance industries: Always count on government regulations making your problem worse.
AlternateTake: the simplest and most effective solution would be to strip away all governmental regulation, launch an influencer campaign to make riding without a helmet cool, and hope natural selection resolves things before we lose too much access.
Somehow, the 12-13 y/os that I see on Surrons here occasionally seem to be very fond of their FF helmets, apparently giving them the big boy on a big bike vibe. I would not bet my money on your strategy.
Oof. I saw a gang of like 12 middle schoolers on Surrons just as I was leaving a trail system here in Nashville last weekend. Only 2 of the 12 had full face helmets.
I have been saying to anyone who would listen that the bike industry should push back on companies like Surron referring to their products as e-bikes. Even things like Super73s are treading too close to the moped/e-Moto line for me. But alas, here we are and the waters may be irrevocably muddied now.
Most states - or at least the ones I’ve lived in - have a limit of 50cc for gas scooters before you have to get a license and insurance. But even those sub-50cc scooters are required to have headlights, taillights, and blinkers. There needs to be some similar framework as we move into the electric age.
And for the record, I would love to have a Surron to dick around on. Even more so if I was a teenager.
Unfortunately, regulatory push back was unavoidable. The emoto kids are getting out of hand. Much like ARon, I would like one too.. Where I'm at, it would make a great trail cutter.. But, a backyard track would be so fun..
As for the ebikes, it's still not clear who is enforcing the regulations and what numbers are used to determine the rating. Now, we have a power battle going on that is blowing the 750w number out of the water..
I got ~30 minutes each with Avinox and Bosch and am still figuring out what to do with the content (podcast or writing). Unsurprisingly, Bosch is a bit "disappointed" (I'm paraphrasing) in the direction Avinox is pushing the industry. They leaned heavily into trail access and stewardship, and suggested the current crop of high-output motors doesn't jive with the effort they've put into balancing stakeholders and leading the powertrain side responsibly.
For fun, I looked back to see if Bosch has ever pushed power or torque limits on their own accord, and from what I can tell the answer is firmly "no", so their position checks out.
Whether that's because of engineering constraints or product management/stewardship is something I'll follow up on. I.e., if they wanted to, could they build a motor that rivals Avinox? I have an idea what they'll say, but it feels most fair to ask.
I'm open to any feedback as to what you guys would like to hear/see, too!
I probably am leaning into this a touch too hard but I'm personally fascinated. This intersects the regulatory environment, geopolitics, technology, business and sport in a way few "stories" have the last few years (or decades).
From a regulatory sense, I think the only way anything significant can be done is a ban on throttled-but-has-pedals units, those that intentionally blur the line between a bicycle and a scooter/motorcycle. Additional regulations will be needed to address the language used when marketing e-motos like Surrons to insure they are not termed the same as any pedal assist vehicle. Pipe dream, but hey, a human can dream.
I half wrote an essay before realising it was more of a rant; essentially I think the power wars risk breaking the social contract of responsible land use, where I live we have very small woods and they’re intensively used for recreation. The tacit agreement is that you’re allowed to do you there under your own power, no dirt bikes, no quads etc. If this is perceived to be broken because you can razz around on fire road climbs at 20mph then I reckon land managers will just ban bikes altogether because it would be too difficult to only ban e-bikes, or ebikes under x watts per 2nd full moon or whatever ‘nominal’ means. I guess this is a rant too but anyway that’s my £0.02
@jeff.brines, heres a bit of feedback/ encouragement.
I believe the story on the clash of an escalating e-bike power war, the rise of the e-moto, the battle for land access, and how governments might seek to regulate it all has the potential to reach well beyond the our small niche here and into the broader media landscape. I believe you're the perfect person to tell the story.
I think the topic influences everyone. I believe it's a story that extends well beyond the interest of mountain bikers and would engage a large swath of the thinking public. Particularly the topic of how light e-motos such as SurRons have been introduced and adopted faster than society can decide how to manage this new class of transport.
If you have the interest/margin to create such a thing I believe it could be a stand alone long form podcast, or an article in the Atlantic (or similar).
Thanks for all the insight you bring to vital,
PH
It the Bosch vs Avinox regulatory/sustainability approach simply a matter of regional company culture?
Bosch being German is used to dealing with the EU environmental and product regulation. I imagine they have some consideration for sustainability of the product category and the perception of the regulatory bodies.
Avinox/DGI is Chinese and operating in their "regulatory" environment. The Chinese tech approach seems push out product with the highest possible specs with the lowest cost, leveraging the huge production capabilities and leaving the consumer to figure out if it's legal, sustainable or ethical in their region. If the product saturates the market, increased the reliance on their systems and creates government regulatory chaos in the USA and Europe, its a total homerun win in their eyes.
Surron had a prominent presence at Sea Otter, and a number of kids were riding these e-motos (along with pit bikes) throughout the expo in ways that were disruptive and inconsiderate. I’m still developing my perspective on high-powered eMTBs (which I consider a separate thing), but it’s hard to ignore how often these machines seem to encourage poor behavior — or at least attract it.
I often hear the argument that it’s better for kids to be outside on bikes (of any sort) than indoors glued to their phones. In principle, I agree. But increasingly, it feels as though the outdoors (and the "real world" more broadly speaking) is being treated less as a place to engage with directly and more as a backdrop for content creation — something to be captured and consumed later on a screen. Whether or not they’re literally filming, the behaviors being emulated are those rewarded online with attention and approval. And, unsurprisingly, those tend not to be the qualities we’d hope to see: humility, awareness, and respect for others.
Sorry to rant.
IMO, 100% this. Chinese Win-Lose ethics takes it all.
Yeah I think it's worth pursuing! I have a feeling the Avinox situation has the potential to shift the industry in so many different ways that it can't be ignored, and no one really digs in to these things, but people are surprised when things take a turn for the worse?
Kids will be kids. In general I find the youth of today to be generally much better behaved than kids of my generation. They are just way more socially clueless when it comes to hiding their more selfish behavior. I think social media has a lot to do with that as well. A lot harder to party as a 13 year old when everything is potentially documented and easy to find if you want to look. And it’s not like “the influencer” is anything new to society. Humans always put individuals on platforms for both illogical and non moral reasons. And I find more youth of today to be aware of and reject consumerism and attention media. They just aren’t necessarily the kids you see most often. I probably know more young 20 year olds who don’t have any social media than people my age. And self awareness and compassion is something I look for in adults before teenagers.
i've seen a bunch of kids in our area out on various forms of emotos (eg things with a throttle) note here: this is on the streets, not the trails. while i have started seeing more and more of them wearing helmets (good!) i've also seen an increasing percentage of them riding like absolute assbags with complete disregard to anything resembling traffic laws. the number i've seen completely blow stop signs (even on roads merging with ridge pike) is astonishing. its only a matter of time till one of these kids causes a major accident if this continues.
Very relevant to this discussion, I just saw on Instagram that there are EIGHT different e-bike regulation bills being debated in the California state legislature right now. Eight!
I once got backed into in a parking lot as a kid just walking. Couldn’t really blame the old lady who backed into me either cause I wasn’t paying attention at all. Had multiple friends cause car accidents skateboarding/rrollernlading as kids. Had a friend take off the bumper of a parked car being dumb trying to use it as a seat. Got countless stories of teens being dumb in cars.
Got a fair amount of empathy for kids being dumb. Yes there are tragedies but most of the time the shenanigans turn out harmless. Surrons and emotos are no different then any of us going out building jumps and drops on a mtb. Some of it’s totally legal. Some of it is in a moral grey area. Some of it is objectively moronic. And there occasionally is serious and tragic consequences on every end of the spectrum that you really just have to accept as being part of it. These kids may have more and different tech than we did growing up but at the end of the day i don’t look around and seeing young kids and teenagers as the ones making the world a less caring and thoughtful place.
Do we think that china could enter the gearbox market the same way they did with motors and finally make a viable gearbox while the endemic companies are playing with themselves?
Humiliate the west a second time...
I disagree that surrons and e-motos aren’t any different to the toys of yesteryear. As you said, there are quantifiable differences between the tech and with that the capacity for kids to do harm to themselves or others. The kids aren’t at fault for this but the backlash/regulation is entirely justified imo
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