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Another review I watched said it's fixed on the M2S, and the M2 is quieter than M1 but not as quiet as the M2S.
There are a ton of automotive regulations already, and at the end of the day, end users are responsible for their actions. Just like how Winchester isn't responsible for grandpa's hunting accident, bike and automotive manufacturers aren't responsible for the majority of crashes and incidents. That being said, E-bikes are getting out of control now, and stepping well over the "pedal assist" line into motorized vehicle territory. Unfortunately, there isn't a good solution for this, because even with regulation (gross who wants that) there are too many ways around it. The only way to actually regulate E bike motors and have a real effect on them is through mechanical means, ie the motor can mechanically only operate within a range where it will put out x watts or x torque or assist up to x speed, because firmware is too easy to get around.
The power always seems to grab the headlines and freak people out. These Avinox bikes are still limited to 20mph like all class 1 bikes and I guess 28mph if you put it into Class 3 Mode (this is the more scarier part I think, they should just eliminate this mode, I'm not even sure if it's still available on the m2/m2s). The big power numbers just seem like a party trick to me, like cheetah mode in a Tesla Plaid, sure it's a fun a few times, but it's not like your going to be doing it at every stop light on your morning commute. The other features of the new Avinox system are what interest me more, 3 different battery sizes, 42T sensor ring for more natural feel, more efficient/quiet than previous gen, smooth shifter w/axs, that HR band integration sounds cool also, etc.
I think of it like reverse harm reduction. Making an ep8 go 20mph on a climb took a LOT of effort (and time). That alone eliminates the risk of a high speed head on collision for the vast majority of e-bikers. If every cyclist can go 20mph in a single pedal stroke the probability of a serious collision starts to look pretty grim
Maybe because I'm not in North America, but don't you guys have climbing trails separate for descending trails?
It's been the standard in Australia for a long time now, any proper sanctioned zone has uphill downhill trails separate, only traversing trails are multi direction and they generally have great site lines, or tight turns to limit speed for safety.
One argument that’s been lost on me is the claim that theirs still a speed limit on the bike , so it’s ok.
There’s even a comparison above to the Tesla plaid cheetah mode. My perspective is that there’s also a big difference.
Yes, you can take an insanely powerful Tesla out on the roads, but that’s inherently a structured environment. There’s signs , lanes, reflectors for the edge of the road, clear sight lines, etc. So if you’re gonna go do 120 in a Tesla you have at least some chance of predicating or seeing what all the other cars and various obstacles are doing . Then there’s enforcement , there’s a pretty strong disincentive to do this, if you’re going fast enough it’s criminal, but even slower violations are pretty discouraging for most .
For e-bikes, none of this structure exists. Imagine if we gave everyone teslas in cheetah mode, put them on a windy road with poor sight lines, no lanes, drivers going both directions, and most of all, each driver knows there’s no risk speed or acceleration based enforcement. Bound to be messy
For me the biggest sticking point with these extra powerful bikes isn’t the torque value, or the peak wattage. It’s the assist level . Having to put in effort , is a huge disincentive to going at the 20mph speed limit of my e bike in its lower modes. 800% assist , starts to blur the lines between pedals and throttle. Humans just generally make different choices when going fast takes effort vs when it’s very easy. If we kept assist levels capped at 400% , that would mean you’d need to input 375w to get Avinox’s 1500w output . Most of us aren’t putting out 375 for too long, but with the current 800% assist I only need to put out 187. I can keep that up for long enough that the motor will start derating . And for me that’s the problem in a nutshell. Control % assistance , and manufacturers can have all the wattage and torque they want .
You guys get to have sanctioned trails?
Digging into the new Ekano 3 from Propain, they've gone a different route to many other brands in that they will be letting customers choose their own Avinox power system variant via their online bike configurator. Two drive options are available: the Avinox M2S is the high-performance choice with 130Nm (150Nm in Boost mode), 1300W, and 2.6kg of weight, while the Avinox M2 steps in as a more budget-oriented option with 110Nm (125Nm in Boost mode), 1100W, and 2.65kg of weight. There is also a range of display, battery, and charging options, including 600Wh or 800Wh fixed batteries, a choice of either a more affordable or a more feature-rich display, and a 4A or a 12A charger. This allows the bike to be precisely tailored to range, performance, and price point (in addition to consumer-configurable colors and general parts spec as well of course). Looks like Propain has played their cards pretty well here! It will be interesting to see the split of people buying M2S vs. M2 as this hits the market.
Some more info below, while we wait for the full release including all the different build packages to drop on April 16.
The fact that this new motor makes more torque than a 1.8L Toyota Corolla is crazy....
just got an email for another one. italian brand - https://www.olympiacicli.it/prodotto/hekton-180/
Just give it a thumb throttle and call it a day. 800% "Assist" is just a joke. When the motor is doing more than 50% of the work you are being pushed. You are cosplaying a cyclist. These bikes shouldn't be called pedal assist, they should be called CosPeds.
We'll be looking out for this new pump from Feedback next week at Sea Otter. Imagine what 1500W will do to that tubeless tire you've been trying to seat?
I’ll still pump just as much, this will just mean I’ll get to fill a lot more tires
That 1.8L makes 104,398 watts vs the Avinox 1,500
not the wattage I was referring to....look at the Nm figures. 150 against 128....
hp = tq x rpm divided by 5252. I don't think my cadence is that high captain!
so at 80rpm cadence you get 1.7hp which is still insane lol
I'm not sure if a pedal revolution is one rpm on these motors with the reduction etc, but It's an example.
I’m 51 and can still put out close to 1,000 watts while sprinting. All more power does is get you to the cutoff speed quicker. Over your regions specified cutoff it’s back on you. It’s a party trick that makes for good sales copy.
“Close to” a 1000w sprinting and 1500w of instant torque are much different beasts. The fact this has basically as much torque as cars that weigh 3000+lbs is nuts.
It would help this discussion immensely if you knew what the units of measurement were actually measuring. Watts are power. 1500 watts is 2.01 horsepower.
The fun part is how long a 800 Wh battery lasts at 1500 watts. Like I said before. Party trick for good ads. Rage bait to get more exposure from people that don’t math.
It'll still put out 1500 watts of power for 30 seconds, and then put out 1300 watts of power continously in the M2s motor. Sure, that'll be in the highest power mode and it will chew through battery really fast, but it's a ton of power that it is putting out, a completely inhuman ammount of power. These are supposed to be pedal assist, But we are getting solidly into the territory of the motor doing 3x the work of the person riding the bike. It's like a hybrid E moto with 25% human power.
I think they're calling it Class 4. At least that's what the sticker on Amflow bikes equipped with this company's old motor says. It's hard not to think motors like this are gonna blow the whole deal.
Can anyone confirm that is you are not using the Avinox 700W battery that the max watts is 1300 and not 1500? I have seen it mentioned a few times.
That lines up with what Pivot told us
Think this just shows we are firmly in the buying motors not bikes after all the manufacturers had to hold the release of their stuff till dji said they could.
Wonder if vitalmtr domain is still available…
I guess that 200 less W didnt outweigh losing 100Wh for most manufactures. Interesting that the Atherton only comes with the 700 and Crestline offers all 3 batteries in the RH3 & 4.
so, same as flooring your car
how often do you actually do this?
There are three guarantees in life: death, taxes, and the internet being absolutely certain that every new e-bike motor release is going to end in disaster.
I like to think my view of the world is pretty empirical and observational. So with that in mind, can anyone point me to actual examples of trail closures caused by e-MTBs? We’ve obviously seen issues with SurRons, but my brief Google search and AI-assisted digging turned up basically nothing beyond trails being opened to e-bikes. I cannot find evidence of trail networks being closed to mountain bikes because e-MTB use has meaningfully increased on-trail conflict.
The idea that added torque and motor support is somehow equivalent to unleashing hordes of beginners on fire-breathing CRF450s doesn’t really check out to me either. The prior Avinox motor was already very powerful, and last time I checked, people were not blowing uphill corners because of it. Maybe a larger number of riders on these bikes changes that. I’m skeptical.
To be fair, I live in a tiny town in Idaho where motorized-access trails are everywhere. Dirt bikes, horses, hikers, and mountain bikes are often on the same trail at the same time, and the only real trail issues are dirt bike vs dirt bike. In my opinion, the real issue is the silence, not the motor itself (if everyone can hear each other we're better off). I also think there’s a fair amount of hypocrisy here. Vital is full of gravity riders who regularly exceed 20 mph going downhill on shared trails, and now suddenly the sky is falling? Yes, I understand the argument about surface area and overall exposure, but again, the data that this is leading to incidents just does not seem to be there.
The toothpaste is out of the tube, and it’s highly unlikely to go back in. The only real change I’d expect is more trail management around directionality and use patterns. But the idea that wattage wars alone are going to trigger mass trail closures just doesn’t hold much water for me.
I know, I know. Unpopular opinion.
Time will tell.
Let's see how it shakes out in Moab. Don't forget, Alta Utah was one of the first ski areas in the country to allow snowboarding.
Battery vs downtube shape, 700wh battery is round and so is the Atherton down tube.
Jeff all good points .
I share your interest in finding closure examples. Unfortunately I think we might be asking the wrong question there . I propose the more relevant question is : what places aren’t gaining access (ebikes or regular bikes)
With e-bikes being a fairly new phenomenon from a land management standpoint , they don’t clearly fit into any the existing category for the average land manager . I’d bet that north of 75% of bike trail mileage in the country does not explicitly have e-bike access. I’m talking land manager formally granted access, not social norm behaviors by trail users. . But over the next decade or so every single land manager of a hike/bike/equestrian trail(s) is going to have to answer the question. “Should we permit e bikes ? Or even allow bikes at all?” . Sure if you've got trails where moto is already allowed , there’s not much of a decision. That question is getting more complicated for bike/hike/equestrian trails as the lines between bike, and motorbike get blurred ( in the eyes of a hypothetical land manager that has neither as a hobby). I could be wrong but I’m going to assume that Joe Landmanager thinks all e-bikes are the same as the fastest one he’s seen.
90% of mileage is on meat powered bikes, but I do own an Orbea Wild so I’m on both sides of the fence here . I think the industry needs to grab our e-biking breathren , give em a hug and start thinking collectively . We’re all trying to get invited to the metaphorical trail access party , but as bikers we are asking for an invitation for both us, and our increasingly rambunctious and occasionally belligerent buddy (e-bikes) that the party host (land managers) doesn’t really know all that well. (Hard sell)
An example of this , in Durango we’ve got nearly 300 miles of town area trails , about 5% of which explicitly allow e bikes. I have actively heard land management and city management discuss the topic of e-bikes. The high level take away: it’s a rapidly evolving space , rolling back access is hard to do because once it’s granted it becomes a social norm, let’s see how this whole thing plays out for a while first, no need to lead the way . Honestly I get it if I put myself in their shoes . Your salary is paid by city taxes from hikers, dog walkers , and some bikers . It’s a difficult question to decided to fundamentally change the definition of your trail system and invite bikes , when the bike industry are actively evolving the definition what bikes are. To be fair we are actively in the middle of a huge crisis of helmetless 13 year olds going 40+ on our river trail system on e-motos and hacked class 2 cruiser things, so that probably isn’t encouraging the town. We had a bike on dog accident on the river trail last year the killed the biker. So in general we don’t have good momentum at the moment. Change is inevitable , I get that too.
Not trying to be a Luddite here, again I have an e bike (2 if you count the commuter) . I just think the that problem is gaining access to trails more then loosing access.
Oh and 800% assist is too much
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