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The Vital MTB Crew
I bought the Hope 2.3MM rotors on Jenson for $56 each.
I grabbed a bunch of galfer sharks for $54.99 while they lasted on Jenson haha
The metallic pads (d02s) from Shimano are cheap and great performing. Upsize the rotors if you want even more power
But a good bleed is everything of course.
TRP R1s 2.3mm rotors are close to $50 CAD around here and are a killer option. Silent, rust treatment on the rotor spokes and a wear indicator.
I have a large family (5 of us) and use either shimano or TRP brakes on all the bikes. I started using TRP rotors and the D20S pads on them all. I've noticed no downside to the TRP rotors on the Shimano brakes at all. I started using them because I would go through one RT66 rotor per set of organic brake pads. After a while I gave up and just started using the TRP rotors.
I am currently testing a set of ZTTO 2.3 rotors and BUCKLOS ceramic pads on my ebike with TRP DH-R's (it gets the most mileage) with surprising results. They may become my go to.
Here’s what the old ones look like (or at least one generation) sorry I have huck monster in the garage and needed to share. Safety pins to save weight, obviously
Are MTB brakes generally inconsistent in their performance or something? Like, two exact sets of brakes can perform completely differently?
I've been watching a bunch of videos, trying to figure out which ones might be a nice upgrade in the future. But the more I research, the more confused I get.
One person will claim a product is the best most reliable brake they have ever used, and all their friends love them too... And then the next video will say the exact opposite; and this seems to be consistent across almost every single model/brand I've looked into.
There are a ton of variables when it comes to brakes. A lot of it can be user preference. Some people may prefer their brakes to feel one way while others would prefer something completely different. Some people like their brakes pulling close to the bar with lots of modulation, and others may like it to grab further out and offer light switch like power delivery.
Furthermore, the bleed process can heavily influence how a brake feels. A bad bleed job can result in a bad or inconsistent feeling brake. And then add rotors and pad compounds to the mix and you have a lot of variables that can heavily influence how a brake feels. Take the maven for example. While it's a good brake at it's core, a bad bleed or not following the piston massage procedure can lead to an inconsistent or bad lever feel. It's easy to argue one set of brakes could feel night and day different compared to another based on the bleed process by the end user and rotor/pad setup. I've felt Mavens on shop floors that feel like utter garbage compared to properly bled Maven systems that feel really good and sharp.
It really depends on what you're looking for out of a brake. PB's big brake review has shown that the Saint still has top-end power even after 10+ years in its product cycle but it offers little to no modulation compared to other options out there, and the power delivery with it is like a light switch, which may be a total turn-off to some people but a huge plus for others. It's easy to get lost in the weeds and nerd out on brakes, hence this forum. I've gotten carried away testing brakes and seeing what I like best. I've been on Saints, Mavens, TRP's, Hope, Lewis, trickstuff, Intend and Hayes brakes over the last couple years to really play around and see what fits me best.
Definitely can be. 2 sets of Dominion A4s, both purchased at almost the same time, feel a bit different regardless of the fact its the same rotors, pads, fluid, bleed kit & procedure. Just slightly different tolerances out of the factory I'd say, not enough to really bother me toooo much but for sure noticeable. Same goes for 3 other bikes with Saints but the differences are less.
@luisgutrod
I stumbled over your backlink, so I thought I'd provide direct insights. We reached out to Intend/Cornelius if he would be open to publishing a review. We got the Flash38 for a different (upcoming) project. They did not want the (free) review on top of what other project we offered. It is part of their philosophy, and because we did not buy the fork, we will respect this.
@sethimus
We follow the strict rule, which is a law over here in Germany: if you get money to do an editorial, you must declare it clearly. If the article got support from the brand, it will show at the very top under the title. It is up to you to decide which media outlets are frank about this.
How TESTPILOT started is a longer story.
Short version: It was/is a side gig, but people seem to like the niche of nerd stuff we publish, so it takes up more of our time and grows.
@TEAMROBOT I have an older Intend blackline edge, happy to lend to you guys if you require. Also have an extra set of trinities.
Imagine two different people with the same size feet trying on the same pair of shoes. The first person tries on the shoes, and loves them. The second person puts the left shoe on their right foot, and the right shoe on their left foot, then goes and tells all their friends "these shoes are terrible."
This is what it's like when people comment about brakes without doing some basic problem solving first. Do you have a good brake bleed? Were you using the correct kind of pads and rotor for your application? Were any of the braking surfaces contaminated? Was the caliper properly aligned on the rotor?Were you using fresh pads? Were you using a decent rotor?
For instance, you wouldn't believe how much of a difference caliper alignment on the rotor can make to brake lever feel. I can make a great feeling brake suddenly feel like garbage by moving the caliper 1-2mm on the adapter. Similarly, as a dumb kid I used to wash my bike with Simple Green, and my brakes never felt as good as my friends brakes. Once I stopped using Simple Green.. voila! My brakes felt great every time.
There are so many opportunities for user error on hydraulic disk brakes, and the effects are so noticeable! Brake feel is such an immediate, visceral part of the mountain bike experience. When your brakes don't feel right, it's hard to think about anything else.
The shoe thing is such a great analogy. It never fails when helping someone diagnose their brake problems that incorrect bleed ends up being the issue. The worst part is they will SWEAR up and down that they bleed the brakes properly. After going around in circles you will finally tease out that they found some random you tube video that swore this one simple trick was all you needed to get a perfect bleed.
WATCH THE DAMN MANUFACTURES BLEED VIDEO. Don't skimp on universal bleed kits, stop using shortcuts and be patient.
Unrelated to me ranting at no one in particular, have you or anyone else on the vital crew ran into the Maven issue with the lever being hard to pull? To what MoldyMTB pointed out, its something that you hear about online, but I have never felt the issue on any mavens I have tried. Over on PB they pointed out that the first run of mavens had this issue. If it truly is a problem? Has anyone reached out to SRAM for a comment on it? Or is this just the Prius stuck gas pedal of our generation.
How odd, for a manufacturer to ask you to not include their fork in a group test review.
What did you think of the intend? Is it work $2k?
Get some 2.3mm rotors from Aliexpress. Cheap, last long and will give a much better bite to your Shimano brakes even without a bleed to push the pistons out.
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005007211041067.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.10.3d661802kzBsN5&gatewayAdapt=glo2fra
I've not had a good experience with rotors from ali. I've bought two and both have a very non-uniform thickness. the brakes pulsed in a very noticeable way.
It is quite the debate on bikes, components, and the price tag brands put on them. If you look at it from a business standpoint and count in the overhead costs, developing costs, tariffs, shipping, different labor costs in different countries... When people are aware of "how low" the unit prices are, their first reaction is being angry. It makes such an immense difference if you either make a couple of thousand units in Asia or just a hundred locally in the US or in Germany.
I, personally, think that you can have an absolute blast in the woods on a cheap bike/suspension. No product, no matter how crazy good the performance is, will make you a better rider. Maybe it will boost your confidence, but that is not because you have a couple of extra dials and a shiny finish.
Thinking of Intend and Push Industries—both companies follow their unique path, and every unit they put together will cost them more to make than anything manufactured by the thousands in the Far East by the big players.
Can you say either the boutique or the mass-produced suspension will provide the better performance? It depends on what you as a rider can feel on the trail and how hard you can push it or if you even set up your midrange suspension in the best possible way.
If you look at an Intend or a Push and you have a soft spot for well-made things with a love for detail, those brands are worth every penny.
Rambling over.
you get any rubbing issues with those thick rotors?
I am not surprised that Cornelius refuses to give you folks your 15 minutes of fame.
The rotors I received from Ali were NOT straight in any way. It probably took me 20 minutes to get both nice and straight.
I've been thinking about trying a set of these...
https://www.lewisbike.com/lewis-eb-20-21-brakes.html
I have a 57lb EMTB that I think they would be prefect to try them out on.
I got the impression that the fork was originally provided by Intend for reason(s) other than a review, in which case I think it's fair for them to request exclusion
I bought 4 and they are mint. I'll be buying them again.
Not with a standard bleed. I personally prefer to push the pistons out so as to have very little lever travel before the pads hit the rotor and still have no rotor rub. I also have some 3mm thick rotors (from the Italian brand Braking) but these require filing the caliper and running slightly worn out pads. They do work great on super long or steep descents. No overheating and no need for 220mm rotors.
Do those use the same post mount standard as MTBs, or is it something with bigger spacing for e-moto that would require an adaptor? It wasn't immediately obvious from the info.
So, the current Maven now has the same size pistons as the Maven Base. The new SwingLink requires less force to actuate the lever, but in return leads to more throw in the lever. By default the BRZ/BSE levers have the contact point setting effectively set at the tightest/least lever throw setting as I assume Sram doesn't intentionally leave the primary seal far away from the reservoir port. The contact point adjuster on the SLV/ULT levers just enables you to adjust the lever for more throw as you can't have the primary seal go over the reservoir port as it would lead to a closed system.
Many bike medias and riders prefer the Maven Base to the Ultimate (at least before the release of the B1). But as the new SwingLink increases lever throw to have an easier pull, the SwingLink loses a big part of the benefit it provides which is to lessen lever throw IMO. I feel like the Maven has enough power with the DirectLink pushrod, so the power aspect of the SwingLink loses it's meaning in a sense.
So in my opinion the only valuable thing on the SLV/ULT are the lever pivot bearings.
The pivot bearings have an OD of 9.52 mm. Has anyone drilled the lever bushing holes of the BRZ/BSE levers to 9.5 mm so bearings could be added to the poverty spec levers?
You would of course need the rod that the pivot bearing screws thread into and a SLV/ULT lever blade (or OAK/Freedom Coast) as the rod is pressed into the lever blade. You would then use the cam from the BSE lever as it is the only one compatible with the DirectLink pushrod
The result would be a slop-free maven that would have the lightest lever throw possible.
Has anyone tried this?
Yes, those calipers are the first generation of the mono block calipers that are now their flagship MTB brakes the Lewis AX.
Matter of fact, they even make 6 piston brakes that are direct mount and 8 piston brakes that mount with adapters.
I know from a guy that the 6 piston just didn't have the power so I believe they remedied that by using the same lever with the larger 4 piston,
I got a set of the Maven B1 "lever tuning kit" to try out. I've never found the A1 stuff to be too firm, but I also seldom ride any descents more than 1,000' vert. And I was running them with the contact adjuster fully inward, which makes the free stroke a bit lighter, plus Oak Components levers (tiny bit longer so theoretically more leverage).
I did my first ride with the B1 cams and SRAM levers. The feel on trail was a lot more significant than what I noticed in the garage and I ended up winding the contact adjuster quite a bit outward as with the lighter lever feel, there wasn't any downside to shortening the free stroke making the deadband firmer. I felt like the resulting lever feel was "Shimano-esque" and when I had the guy I was riding with (who runs XTRs) agreed. Trail conditions are basically anti-grip right now (having a heat wave, basically midsummer dust & sand over hard), so it was hard to judge the modulation quality since my tires were sliding all over the place even without braking.
For my second ride, I paired the B1 cams with the Oak Components levers I was using (mostly for the more pronounced hook, solid feeling, and texture). I'm noticing that on very steep trails where you have to brake really hard just to keep from accelerating, I am having to squeeze the lever harder/further. Conditions here are just godawful anti-grip moon dust right now, so I'm sure that's part of it. But the sensation of having to pull really hard on the lever to get full power out of the brake was something I experienced with Dominions also, which utilize a very high leverage in order to get a light lever feel. I think I will swap back to the A1 cams (with Oak levers) and see if I'm still feeling this in these conditions.
I suspect that my personal preference is for the brake to have a very direct feel, trading a firmer deadband feel for more accessible peak power. If anything, I felt like the A1 lever feel encouraged me to fully let off the brakes when not actively trying to slow down - less emotional support "pull the lever just a little bit but not intending it to do anything."
Big Maven fan here I got the B1 carbon lever upgrade kit sitting beside me as I am currently on some Hayes which was the other end of the spectrum it seems. I like the detail both you and @AndehM provided. I never had any issues with modulating the A1s but I'm a little bummed to hear it may loose that direct feel. Out of curiosity which lever tuning kits are you both on? I picked up the Ultimate to match my experts and wondering if I will experience a different on stamped vs cnc vs carbon lever blade.
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