theres a funny quote just posted today on the red site: "it has size growing chainstays, so that means if you ONLY stand with all your...
theres a funny quote just posted today on the red site: "it has size growing chainstays, so that means if you ONLY stand with all your weight on your feet, the balance is XX%"(not fully word for word but close enough)
This reminded me of below, which i got told at a WC last year by a team manager.
'riders who swing off the back because they are scared will end up with understeer' - will love long rear centres 'riders who attack the Front, Usally better riders who want to go really fast/racers' - will love short rear centres.
As someone who loves both... different riding styles get the most from either setup one isnt "better than the other"
anyway back to rumor's before the long centre cowboys get upset again.
While better than/worse than is always comparative, I think when we start narrowing down what discipline of riding is relevant, we can start to have more productive conversations of cs balance without boiling it down to preference. I mean, we can take either to the extreme and say it starts being a bad thing. Nobody wants a 450 reach and a 650 cs. Nobody wants a 450 reach and a 300 cs.
When we're talking the big mountain stuff that's relevant to the bikes at hand, something pulling 160+ numbers, we can assume it's going to be made for steeper burlier trails, and we can pretty convincingly make an argument that longer CS is, in fact, "better" than a shorter CS. Better for me isn't better for you, per say, but on average better does tend to be, well, better.
As much as I want to try longer chain stays, if you like short stays, rock them.. My current bike has 432 stays, I can ride it fast, but I have to focus a lot on my body position.. Ride what works for you..
theres a funny quote just posted today on the red site: "it has size growing chainstays, so that means if you ONLY stand with all your...
theres a funny quote just posted today on the red site: "it has size growing chainstays, so that means if you ONLY stand with all your weight on your feet, the balance is XX%"(not fully word for word but close enough)
This reminded me of below, which i got told at a WC last year by a team manager.
'riders who swing off the back because they are scared will end up with understeer' - will love long rear centres 'riders who attack the Front, Usally better riders who want to go really fast/racers' - will love short rear centres.
As someone who loves both... different riding styles get the most from either setup one isnt "better than the other"
anyway back to rumor's before the long centre cowboys get upset again.
Are you kidding me I could talk about this all day
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
Maybe electronic DHX2 or X2? I remember seeing a prototype shown on someones bike at some point last year, but that was the one and only time I saw mention of it. A gravity-oriented electronic shock from Fox that has more adjustment than a DHX or Float X Live Valve Neo.
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but...
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
Its worth looking at emoto stems since they are the same thing with perhaps a bit more weight to allow for heavy-handed wrenching. Most are quite short, though they never seem to display just how short. The only one I've found with a true zero offset is for 1 1/8" bars, even though most are for 31.8
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but...
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
2nd ave sells Mondraker so you could ask them to order something from OnOff if they even make this stuff still.
There was a Spank stem that was 25/35mm in length but couldnt find it anywhere. I think we will see a couple of companies come out with some shorty direct mounts this year.
I don't disagree with your maths, but what makes you think they're being designed to the same maximum strength?A quality 31.8mm bar has excessive strength for...
I don't disagree with your maths, but what makes you think they're being designed to the same maximum strength?
A quality 31.8mm bar has excessive strength for mountain biking. There's plenty of headroom there to design with stiffness as your criteria rather than strength (or weight).
I'd assume designing blindly to strength is what made early (Easton I think?) 35mm bars so awful, and birthed the negative perception of them that's still going ~15 years later.
If you want to maximize flexibility then you’ll be working to the maximum allowable stress. For a given use case that is the same regardless of...
If you want to maximize flexibility then you’ll be working to the maximum allowable stress. For a given use case that is the same regardless of bar diameter. You’d could decrease wall thickness of the 35 mm OD cross section to increase deflection but then you’d drop below that maximum allowable stress. Alternatively you could make the 31.8 mm bar thicker, but then you’ve arguably changed the use case for those bars and it’s no longer apples to apples.
I agree with you there you could probably push flex further on 31.8 vs 35mm while retaining safety. Maybe this is for 'handlebar stiffness rumours & innovation'...
I agree with you there you could probably push flex further on 31.8 vs 35mm while retaining safety.
Maybe this is for 'handlebar stiffness rumours & innovation', but my point was there headroom to play with in terms of strength (no brand is likely at the limit of stiffness you're describing).
You could make a more flexible 31.8mm handlebar than what's on the market, which is still safe to ride if you wanted to. It'd ride like trash, but you could do it. The whole point of going to 35mm is to reduce the wall thickness anyway (aesthetics ignored) to save weight - you just get that benefit from the larger tubes' second moment of area.
There is no reason for every brand who makes 31.8 & 35mm bars to not match their stiffness across both sizes, at least within a ballpark while still meeting strength/fatigue testing targets.
The ability to reverse engineer a 35mm bar to perform as well as a good 31.8 bar doesn't justify doing it in the first place however 🙂
Why do you think a flexible bar would ride like trash?
Also when you say bars are not close to the ultimate strength and the like, with aluminium you need some safety because cycling it the strength will lower. If you start close to the ultimate limit, the bar will crack through very little use. With carbon it is a bit different, but yeah. I think it might make sense to have a discussion on how much safety you need. The more the better to be sure, but if it adds stiffness that you don't want, there's a middle ground you'd need to achieve.
I agree with you there you could probably push flex further on 31.8 vs 35mm while retaining safety. Maybe this is for 'handlebar stiffness rumours & innovation'...
I agree with you there you could probably push flex further on 31.8 vs 35mm while retaining safety.
Maybe this is for 'handlebar stiffness rumours & innovation', but my point was there headroom to play with in terms of strength (no brand is likely at the limit of stiffness you're describing).
You could make a more flexible 31.8mm handlebar than what's on the market, which is still safe to ride if you wanted to. It'd ride like trash, but you could do it. The whole point of going to 35mm is to reduce the wall thickness anyway (aesthetics ignored) to save weight - you just get that benefit from the larger tubes' second moment of area.
There is no reason for every brand who makes 31.8 & 35mm bars to not match their stiffness across both sizes, at least within a ballpark while still meeting strength/fatigue testing targets.
The ability to reverse engineer a 35mm bar to perform as well as a good 31.8 bar doesn't justify doing it in the first place however 🙂
And is way below what EFBE defines for the different categories of use for example.
EFBE, Zedler etc have done a good job of upselling a marketable test standard to smaller bike companies who don't have any test in-house.
Whether the higher loads/test criteria are necessary is an interesting question. Certainly generates more testing work for them when early protos fail (where they would have passed ISO)!
I mean, a lot of the big companies are using categories now, also tested with EFBE. How exactly internal testing is done is a different question. I am for sure of the opinion that if categories are defined, the standard (ISO or whatever) should also include test loads.
In either case, you still need external labs for ISO testing as accreditation for the lab is an expensive thing and only makes sense if you do ISO testing daily. Internal labs do not do that. And for EU compliance (safe product) you need a certified ISO testing pass.
I mean, a lot of the big companies are using categories now, also tested with EFBE. How exactly internal testing is done is a different question...
I mean, a lot of the big companies are using categories now, also tested with EFBE. How exactly internal testing is done is a different question. I am for sure of the opinion that if categories are defined, the standard (ISO or whatever) should also include test loads.
In either case, you still need external labs for ISO testing as accreditation for the lab is an expensive thing and only makes sense if you do ISO testing daily. Internal labs do not do that. And for EU compliance (safe product) you need a certified ISO testing pass.
Yes, the ASTM 'levels' without any associated meaning are just nonsense.
The ISO standard I've been exposed to are more than sufficient to make a 'safe' product. Whether that's the same as a product that's durable enough to keep customers happy is another matter.
There are definitely some big holes in ISO 4210 though - no test standard for strength/security of lock on grips to the handlebar seems an oversight - grips breaking is scary!
I don't know if the general trend towards heavier bikes is influenced by EFBE, or rather consumer demands/warranty numbers. But it's a good thing regardless.
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So another industry problem, interface tolerancing (tolerance on handlebar diameter and stem diameter) is in no way defined. It's basically praying everything will work.
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So...
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So another industry problem, interface tolerancing (tolerance on handlebar diameter and stem diameter) is in no way defined. It's basically praying everything will work.
ISO 4210 is for safety standards (I.e testing requirements).
I don’t believe it dictates any tolerances, anywhere on the bike. It tells you how to test the components, assuming they’re made correctly.
ISO 6699 is what you’re looking for (bar/stem tolerances).
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but...
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
I have designed a 40mm rise, 25mm reach for 35 handlebars for my 29" modified Intense M9 not long ago😜
I do it for the love of the game, maybe we can work together on something? We can end up designing something custom and having it made there in the land of the free (?)
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to my favoured length) to the 35mm ones (only because I got trapped in the 44mm-same-as-the-fork-offset Fraezen Hype stem, wich is super nice piece of equipment, don't get me wrong) and it feels the same, although I ride with Odi longnecks glued on, wich mute a lot of feedback.
I rode and can definitely feel flex in the handlebar (I've got a trails bmx setup for pumptrack use and the handlebars are light and flexy) and I am also into ATB/alt handlebars, so I've owned some nittos in the past that were flexy enought that you can see them deflect... But my new Renthals just feel like... Renthals!
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to...
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to my favoured length) to the 35mm ones (only because I got trapped in the 44mm-same-as-the-fork-offset Fraezen Hype stem, wich is super nice piece of equipment, don't get me wrong) and it feels the same, although I ride with Odi longnecks glued on, wich mute a lot of feedback.
I rode and can definitely feel flex in the handlebar (I've got a trails bmx setup for pumptrack use and the handlebars are light and flexy) and I am also into ATB/alt handlebars, so I've owned some nittos in the past that were flexy enought that you can see them deflect... But my new Renthals just feel like... Renthals!
Only thing I’ve noticed stiffness wise 35 vs 31.8 is when you cut them down a good amount. I still run fairly narrow bars on my trail bike by modern standards.
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to...
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to my favoured length) to the 35mm ones (only because I got trapped in the 44mm-same-as-the-fork-offset Fraezen Hype stem, wich is super nice piece of equipment, don't get me wrong) and it feels the same, although I ride with Odi longnecks glued on, wich mute a lot of feedback.
I rode and can definitely feel flex in the handlebar (I've got a trails bmx setup for pumptrack use and the handlebars are light and flexy) and I am also into ATB/alt handlebars, so I've owned some nittos in the past that were flexy enought that you can see them deflect... But my new Renthals just feel like... Renthals!
Only thing I’ve noticed stiffness wise 35 vs 31.8 is when you cut them down a good amount. I still run fairly narrow bars on my...
Only thing I’ve noticed stiffness wise 35 vs 31.8 is when you cut them down a good amount. I still run fairly narrow bars on my trail bike by modern standards.
Same here, I cut my bars to 745mm run 31.8 'cause they're more compliant than 35mm at that length
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So...
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So another industry problem, interface tolerancing (tolerance on handlebar diameter and stem diameter) is in no way defined. It's basically praying everything will work.
Are we actually praying it’ll all work really? This seems kind of like hyperbole. Maybe we just know it’s going to work because
A: when I install a new part you can just feel it either working or not.
All the debate on compliance between 31.8 & 35 bars and I'm over here thinking a set of Doom 22.2 cromo bars might be in my future unless I can find someone else making a 55-60mm cromo rise bar.... Or buying a pipe bender and making my own.
There was a Spank stem that was 25/35mm in length but couldnt find it anywhere. I think we will see a couple of companies come out with some shorty direct mounts this year.
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but...
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
While better than/worse than is always comparative, I think when we start narrowing down what discipline of riding is relevant, we can start to have more productive conversations of cs balance without boiling it down to preference. I mean, we can take either to the extreme and say it starts being a bad thing. Nobody wants a 450 reach and a 650 cs. Nobody wants a 450 reach and a 300 cs.
When we're talking the big mountain stuff that's relevant to the bikes at hand, something pulling 160+ numbers, we can assume it's going to be made for steeper burlier trails, and we can pretty convincingly make an argument that longer CS is, in fact, "better" than a shorter CS. Better for me isn't better for you, per say, but on average better does tend to be, well, better.
Chainstay talk again...
This is why we can't have nice things
As much as I want to try longer chain stays, if you like short stays, rock them.. My current bike has 432 stays, I can ride it fast, but I have to focus a lot on my body position.. Ride what works for you..
The only people who maybe care about your chainstay length are on this thread
https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/modern-geo-talk-chainstays-stack-reach-and-bitching-about-it
Are you kidding me I could talk about this all day
lol it’s true we are all there.
Either way it’s a frickin joke when companies claim proportional chainstays and deliver… not proportional chainstays.
Slightly off topic, but is there a zero offset (or close to it) DM stem that one can actually purchase? Rulezman has an 18mm version, but it's $300+ to get one sent to the US. That's just nutty.
I know I've seen them on WC DH bikes recently, but can't find one anywhere. Like the ones Cesar Rojo made long ago....
That's a much nicer version of what Marzocchi had back in the day.. But, not many people used it since frames were so much shorter..
Jackson rocking a shock sock... 🤔
Maybe electronic DHX2 or X2? I remember seeing a prototype shown on someones bike at some point last year, but that was the one and only time I saw mention of it. A gravity-oriented electronic shock from Fox that has more adjustment than a DHX or Float X Live Valve Neo.
Its worth looking at emoto stems since they are the same thing with perhaps a bit more weight to allow for heavy-handed wrenching. Most are quite short, though they never seem to display just how short. The only one I've found with a true zero offset is for 1 1/8" bars, even though most are for 31.8
2nd ave sells Mondraker so you could ask them to order something from OnOff if they even make this stuff still.
https://www.onoffcomponents.com/en/krypton-dh-cnc-integrated-10mm
https://www.onoffcomponents.com/en/krypton-dh-cnc-integrated-25-30mm
There was a Spank stem that was 25/35mm in length but couldnt find it anywhere. I think we will see a couple of companies come out with some shorty direct mounts this year.
https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/4127835/
Why do you think a flexible bar would ride like trash?
Also when you say bars are not close to the ultimate strength and the like, with aluminium you need some safety because cycling it the strength will lower. If you start close to the ultimate limit, the bar will crack through very little use. With carbon it is a bit different, but yeah. I think it might make sense to have a discussion on how much safety you need. The more the better to be sure, but if it adds stiffness that you don't want, there's a middle ground you'd need to achieve.
And is way below what EFBE defines for the different categories of use for example.
EFBE, Zedler etc have done a good job of upselling a marketable test standard to smaller bike companies who don't have any test in-house.
Whether the higher loads/test criteria are necessary is an interesting question. Certainly generates more testing work for them when early protos fail (where they would have passed ISO)!
I mean, a lot of the big companies are using categories now, also tested with EFBE. How exactly internal testing is done is a different question. I am for sure of the opinion that if categories are defined, the standard (ISO or whatever) should also include test loads.
In either case, you still need external labs for ISO testing as accreditation for the lab is an expensive thing and only makes sense if you do ISO testing daily. Internal labs do not do that. And for EU compliance (safe product) you need a certified ISO testing pass.
Yes, the ASTM 'levels' without any associated meaning are just nonsense.
The ISO standard I've been exposed to are more than sufficient to make a 'safe' product. Whether that's the same as a product that's durable enough to keep customers happy is another matter.
There are definitely some big holes in ISO 4210 though - no test standard for strength/security of lock on grips to the handlebar seems an oversight - grips breaking is scary!
I don't know if the general trend towards heavier bikes is influenced by EFBE, or rather consumer demands/warranty numbers. But it's a good thing regardless.
Lock on grips are not covered at all. It's stems, handlebars and bar ends. Then the interface between either of them is also not defined. So another industry problem, interface tolerancing (tolerance on handlebar diameter and stem diameter) is in no way defined. It's basically praying everything will work.
ISO 4210 is for safety standards (I.e testing requirements).
I don’t believe it dictates any tolerances, anywhere on the bike. It tells you how to test the components, assuming they’re made correctly.
ISO 6699 is what you’re looking for (bar/stem tolerances).
I have designed a 40mm rise, 25mm reach for 35 handlebars for my 29" modified Intense M9 not long ago😜
I do it for the love of the game, maybe we can work together on something? We can end up designing something custom and having it made there in the land of the free (?)
Is the difference between 31.8mm and 35mm of the SAME handlebar really that noticeable? I went from 31.8mm Renthal Fatbar Lites (as they come precut to my favoured length) to the 35mm ones (only because I got trapped in the 44mm-same-as-the-fork-offset Fraezen Hype stem, wich is super nice piece of equipment, don't get me wrong) and it feels the same, although I ride with Odi longnecks glued on, wich mute a lot of feedback.
I rode and can definitely feel flex in the handlebar (I've got a trails bmx setup for pumptrack use and the handlebars are light and flexy) and I am also into ATB/alt handlebars, so I've owned some nittos in the past that were flexy enought that you can see them deflect... But my new Renthals just feel like... Renthals!
Only thing I’ve noticed stiffness wise 35 vs 31.8 is when you cut them down a good amount. I still run fairly narrow bars on my trail bike by modern standards.
Same here, I cut my bars to 745mm run 31.8 'cause they're more compliant than 35mm at that length
Are we actually praying it’ll all work really? This seems kind of like hyperbole. Maybe we just know it’s going to work because
A: when I install a new part you can just feel it either working or not.
B: I don’t buy wuhan stems and grips lol.
This seems like a great topic for a new thread.
All the debate on compliance between 31.8 & 35 bars and I'm over here thinking a set of Doom 22.2 cromo bars might be in my future unless I can find someone else making a 55-60mm cromo rise bar.... Or buying a pipe bender and making my own.
so, after CS length war this turned into 31,8 vs 35 bars discussions… can we please keep it tech RUMORS/INNOVATION in here?!
maybe open up a new 31,8 vs 35 thread if such doesn‘t already exist.
Damn, that would be perfect. Thanks for the heads up, I'll see what can be done.
handlebar diameter thread started - https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/mtb-handlebar-diameter-debates-31-8-vs-35-and-more
take the discussion there, please.
I had this marzocchi stem back in the day, it worked well. Looks like they're still available on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/365555671926
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