threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate...
threw it into linkage and the anti-squat, anti-rise, chain forces, and axle path all follow exactly the same path as would be expected, the leverage rate and forces are slightly different. ( did not find the shock size and stroke but i made this assuming a 205x60 )
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think...
I'm going to take a moment to lay out a real tech based reason that a dual shock bike could be useful. Not because I think it's where this bike was going and not because I necessarily think it's a good idea. Just for the fun of it. Each shock has its own leverage curve. You could use this to create an effective leverage curve anywhere between the two by proportionally changing the amount of support you are getting from each shock. Let's say one leverage curve was 30% progression and the other was 10%... you could alter how each shock is tuned to get a 20% curve. Or 21%. Or any number in between the two bounds. This would be an absolute rabbit hole of course, but you could call it infinite effective leverage curve tuning if you wanted.
I can see Jerry now, fully closing rebound on one shock and leaving the other wide open, so they cancel each other out
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so...
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling...
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
With consistently high AS/kickback rate, consistently high AR, in practice Switch Infinity bikes just ride like linkage driven single pivots. They tune their AS to drop right at the end of the stroke to minimise kickback, but if your suspension is compressing fast enough to give you kickback while it's already 95% compression then you're about to have a bad time, and kickback is the least of your problems.
Switch Infinity is a very complex and expensive way to do very little.
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so...
Switch Infinity uses a linear slider to simulate an infinitely long rotating link (i.e. a circular arc with infinite radius is effectively a straight line), so these are two very different things.
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling...
And part of the trick is the inflection point where the effective chainstay extends in the first part of the travel (high AS in the Pedalling range), then it shortens after the inflection point (less pedal kickback).
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be...
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?I thought that...
Didn’t the corsair dual shock Crown do it for a wildly different bottom out control vs. the softer and high pivot beginning stroke sensitivity?
I thought that was a pretty cool idea - to isolate bottom out and initial stroke effects
Yeah it was kind of like 2" of bottom out bumper travel....I think the x-fusion shock they used would always blow up but they could be locked out with a bolt through the eyelet instead of a shock. Thats what we did with all the team bikes at least (including one Brook Mac for about 2 races until he got a turner!)
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal...
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
I was hoping for new front triangle as well. anyone got info on legend, are they cooking something new? XL 29 Frames have been sold out fork like 1 year.
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.The SB160's chainstays...
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
The SB Bikes gain about 6-8mm of rearward axle path around the sag point. My size small goes from 442-448/450.
From there they start to shorten some but overall maintain a pretty vertical axle path.
We can only wish to see any updates from Banshee...
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
Alway's loved banshee bikes. If they could decrease there seat tube height and increase insertion lengths I bet they would sell a good percentage more. Americas version of Raww
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most...
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
You're talking about the horizontal distance between the bb and axle. That does shorten after sag.The axle still moves upwards, away from the bb, extending the...
You're talking about the horizontal distance between the bb and axle. That does shorten after sag.
The axle still moves upwards, away from the bb, extending the distance between the two. Which is what Primoz seemed to be talking about.
It’s still a 160mm bike so the rear wheel will have to get further from the BB to avoid colliding with the frame. There’s no magic going on inside switch infinity, all mid travel bikes will have ~3-6mm of chainstay growth in the first half of travel. Horst link bikes tend to spread this out over a larger chunk of travel but short link bikes will swing back up until sag before dramatically arcing forward. Even the characteristic of having stable antisquat before it falls off dramatically close to bottom out are consistent with VPP and DW-link.
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most...
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.I’m 6’3” and...
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most...
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.I’m 6’3” and...
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo
Alway's loved banshee bikes. If they could decrease there seat tube height and increase insertion lengths I bet they would sell a good percentage more. Americas...
Alway's loved banshee bikes. If they could decrease there seat tube height and increase insertion lengths I bet they would sell a good percentage more. Americas version of Raww
One of the reasons I bought a Raaw. Seat tube length and dropper insertion is not great on the Banshee and was worried compared to my Firebird I had previously. After getting used to a 240mm dropper post, there is no coming back. Riding Mount7, BC and all these steep trails around, you really appreciated having the saddle out of the way.
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most...
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.I’m 6’3” and...
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that. The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride...
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the reach. I have 35mm rise bars and 20mm of spacers on my 505 reach XL Sentinel.
You can’t really add reach. You can change stem length but that has other effects on bike handling.
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.I’m 6’3” and...
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that. The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride...
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the...
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the reach. I have 35mm rise bars and 20mm of spacers on my 505 reach XL Sentinel.
You can’t really add reach. You can change stem length but that has other effects on bike handling.
Looking at the Sentinel, adding 20mm of stack via stem spacers shortens the reach by 10mm - effectively putting the handlebar position in the same spot it would be on the Titan...
Also, being able to get about a 15mm longer chainstay on the Titan makes a big difference to f/r balance meaning you don't need to ride over the front as much. This makes the bike fit 'bigger' - at least looking at it from standing over the bike. Seated position would be another ballgame.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that. The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride...
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the...
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the reach. I have 35mm rise bars and 20mm of spacers on my 505 reach XL Sentinel.
You can’t really add reach. You can change stem length but that has other effects on bike handling.
Looking at the Sentinel, adding 20mm of stack via stem spacers shortens the reach by 10mm - effectively putting the handlebar position in the same spot...
Looking at the Sentinel, adding 20mm of stack via stem spacers shortens the reach by 10mm - effectively putting the handlebar position in the same spot it would be on the Titan...
Also, being able to get about a 15mm longer chainstay on the Titan makes a big difference to f/r balance meaning you don't need to ride over the front as much. This makes the bike fit 'bigger' - at least looking at it from standing over the bike. Seated position would be another ballgame.
Elegantly phrased argument for the Nü Progressive Geo Gang
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.I’m 6’3” and...
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small. The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that. The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride...
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the...
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the reach. I have 35mm rise bars and 20mm of spacers on my 505 reach XL Sentinel.
You can’t really add reach. You can change stem length but that has other effects on bike handling.
Adding stack does effectively add reach, because you would use less spacers to get the same bar height.
Said another way - If you have two bikes with the same reach and head tube angle but one has a higher stack, that one will have a longer front-center.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/2Stage-Elite-9-Test-2009.html
I've actually ridden one of these....it was not awful.
Dude, you forgot the kickstand.
Good work on the analysis.
But if I have 2 shocks? I need 2 kickstands. HA
Does this bike come with a 6 minutes abs VHS?
I wish I could’ve had a chance to try one!
I can see Jerry now, fully closing rebound on one shock and leaving the other wide open, so they cancel each other out
This is how essentially all normal suspension bikes behave. The only bikes with continuously extending chainstays are high pivots, and even then they have to be pretty up there for that to be the case. Switch infinity has similar characteristics to VPP and DW-link.
With consistently high AS/kickback rate, consistently high AR, in practice Switch Infinity bikes just ride like linkage driven single pivots. They tune their AS to drop right at the end of the stroke to minimise kickback, but if your suspension is compressing fast enough to give you kickback while it's already 95% compression then you're about to have a bad time, and kickback is the least of your problems.
Switch Infinity is a very complex and expensive way to do very little.
I distinctly remember measuring my Bird AM9 that the chainstay length was the longest at full travel... And there are very few bikes where the pedal kickback lessens towards the end of the travel. That needs to be the case for the chainstay to get shorter. Mind you, I'm talking about chainstay length, so BB to rear axle length, the actual value, not the rear centre.
Regarding switch infinity, FWIW, a very similar thing (inflection point) is also done by modern DW link bikes and I think Ghost does the same thing where the lower link doesn't rotate in the same direction over all of the travel. At the end of the day that is exactly what the original switch thingies (bearing variant) did.
new/proto banshee rear end? seems to be sporting UDH dropouts and it looks to be raw without clearcoat
Yeah it was kind of like 2" of bottom out bumper travel....I think the x-fusion shock they used would always blow up but they could be locked out with a bolt through the eyelet instead of a shock. Thats what we did with all the team bikes at least (including one Brook Mac for about 2 races until he got a turner!)
We can only wish to see any updates from Banshee...
Yeti chainstays don't shorten through the stroke. Their wheel path is basically the same as anything else non high pivot within a few mm.
The SB160's chainstays go from about 440mm centre to centre at the top of travel to about 465mm at bottom out, with sag at about 448mm, for instance.
For that money I'd at least want an AXS and Kashima coated kickstand !
I was hoping for new front triangle as well. anyone got info on legend, are they cooking something new? XL 29 Frames have been sold out fork like 1 year.
The SB Bikes gain about 6-8mm of rearward axle path around the sag point. My size small goes from 442-448/450.
From there they start to shorten some but overall maintain a pretty vertical axle path.
You're talking about the horizontal distance between the bb and axle. That does shorten after sag.
The axle still moves upwards, away from the bb, extending the distance between the two. Which is what Primoz seemed to be talking about.
In all fairness the geo on Banshee bikes is still ahead of most other brands - particularly for larger sizes. Looking at the geo for most of their bikes I'm not sure what I would want different being a size large rider. Would be nice to see them update to UDH to be able to sell more bikes.
Alway's loved banshee bikes. If they could decrease there seat tube height and increase insertion lengths I bet they would sell a good percentage more. Americas version of Raww
I don’t know which bikes you’re looking at because on the ones I’m looking at their geo is definitely outdated, especially for larger riders.
I’m 6’3” and consider all of their bikes too small.
The largest Titan and Rune they sell only have a 495 reach. The biggest Legend is 480 reach.
It’s still a 160mm bike so the rear wheel will have to get further from the BB to avoid colliding with the frame. There’s no magic going on inside switch infinity, all mid travel bikes will have ~3-6mm of chainstay growth in the first half of travel. Horst link bikes tend to spread this out over a larger chunk of travel but short link bikes will swing back up until sag before dramatically arcing forward. Even the characteristic of having stable antisquat before it falls off dramatically close to bottom out are consistent with VPP and DW-link.
I guess I meant size L or XL bike riders when I was referring to that.
The legend definitely needs a larger size - I would ride the XL 29" at 6ft tall. Looking at the Titan (and all of their 29" bikes) you gotta pay attention to the stack when looking at the reach numbers because it is larger than other bikes. On the Titan, the stack is 661mm which is significantly larger than most other bikes - this would equate to a >> 500mm reach on other manufacturers bikes. Also, you can put the +10mm chainstay dropout on which would give you a 462mm CS - this puts you in a more upright position for proper front/rear weight bias.
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo
One of the reasons I bought a Raaw. Seat tube length and dropper insertion is not great on the Banshee and was worried compared to my Firebird I had previously. After getting used to a 240mm dropper post, there is no coming back. Riding Mount7, BC and all these steep trails around, you really appreciated having the saddle out of the way.
Sure, they have tall stacks, but you can add stack with handlebars and stem spacers without any significant downsides other than a slight shortening of the reach. I have 35mm rise bars and 20mm of spacers on my 505 reach XL Sentinel.
You can’t really add reach. You can change stem length but that has other effects on bike handling.
Looking at the Sentinel, adding 20mm of stack via stem spacers shortens the reach by 10mm - effectively putting the handlebar position in the same spot it would be on the Titan...
Also, being able to get about a 15mm longer chainstay on the Titan makes a big difference to f/r balance meaning you don't need to ride over the front as much. This makes the bike fit 'bigger' - at least looking at it from standing over the bike. Seated position would be another ballgame.
Really hope it’s backwards compatible for the v3.2. The dropout system seems like it would be really easy to design a UDH one for aftermarket.
Elegantly phrased argument for the Nü Progressive Geo Gang
Adding stack does effectively add reach, because you would use less spacers to get the same bar height.
Said another way - If you have two bikes with the same reach and head tube angle but one has a higher stack, that one will have a longer front-center.
All suspension designs will become Crab and all tech rumor conversations will become Long Chainstay
Next Megatower will be virtual crab