Poll: Electric shifting vs mechanical shifting

DServy
Posts
235
Joined
5/28/2015
Location
Jackson, WY US
7/31/2024 8:21am

You can take transmission's pedal under load single button multishift from my cold dead fingers. Being able to just press a button and go ham on the pedals to get up an unexpected climb is so useful. 

And before you mention that Shimano says you can shift under load, just know that I've had multiple xt/xtr drivetrains shit the bed or just not shift under load as advertised. It just doesn't work nearly as well as transmission. Also, Shimano still using plates, spacers, and microspline instead of XD makes me so grumpy every time I have to deal with one of their cassettes. Just use XD already. 

2
2
az2au
Posts
66
Joined
10/19/2023
Location
Scottsdale, AZ US
Fantasy
7/31/2024 9:40am
az2au wrote:

 

There are multiple e-bikes that allow this already, e.g. Transition Repeater PT

I do think sram transmission /axs allow that, never saw adapter to tap into main power source instead of battery on der

Any bike with a SRAM motor and auto shift requires it. I owned a Repeater for a few months (hated it, full power e-MTBs just aren’t for me) and I can say with 100% certainty that it worked that way. 

1
Falcon
Posts
421
Joined
9/6/2015
Location
Menifee, CA US
7/31/2024 1:32pm

I don't hate electronic shifting, but I'm wondering what the actual benefits are. You save weight on a cable but add it back with a battery. You get precise shifting, but said battery could run out and leave you stuck in the wrong gear. You get an easier maintenance schedule (just charge it and go,) but it's more regularly-occurring. 
I'd prefer to do the (occasional) maintenance on a cable system, myself. 

4
piggy
Posts
92
Joined
9/15/2011
Location
Compton, CA US
7/31/2024 2:31pm
az2au wrote:
I don’t care all that much about cost or a little extra weight. I have Transmission on 10 of my MTBs (sold 1, used to be...

I don’t care all that much about cost or a little extra weight. I have Transmission on 10 of my MTBs (sold 1, used to be 11)  and have installed it on several more for friends or other bikes I have sold. Never once had a battery issue and have never even considered batteries as a thought. It is just something I do as automatically as checking my tire pressure before leaving the house. So much easier for the vast majority of people to setup and maintain, looks cleaner and no longer a concern about messing something up when banging my derailleur off a boulder. 

Did see one buddy bang one hard enough to eff it up but he bought a new cage and I fixed it for him as good as new in less than 10 minutes. For old AXS, I’d call it nice to have but Transmission has been a magic leap forward in many ways and incompatibility with a couple of bikes has prevented me from purchasing those bikes. 

I get the cost concern and hope it comes down to a place more people can afford. Don’t love that people in that position might not have options. That part just stinks. 

I do find it annoying that there’s an assumption that incompetent rich posers are the only people that like it. Best XC rider I know loves it and he’s won plenty including national level events. I can also assure you that my ability to afford expensive crap doesn’t mean I care any less than anyone here. I work my butt off to keep improving even at 52 and care about this sport as much as anyone. Don’t assume things about people with money. I’d ride a $200 Ozark if it was all I could afford and still love the sport just as much. 

Good point. Old axs drivetrain is fine but transmission is a Great Leap Forward. 

7/31/2024 4:07pm

Its ironic that both PFP and Tom Pidcock won their respective races in the recent 2024 Olympics using Shimano XTR. Even more ironic that Pinarello only sell the Dogma with SRAM electronic. Marketing? Maybe they should read this poll.

3
Simann
Posts
18
Joined
8/13/2023
Location
Murfreesboro, TN US
7/31/2024 6:44pm
I find the light touch on the shifter with electronic shifting to be a big advantage, but that's because it aggravates the nerve damage I have...

I find the light touch on the shifter with electronic shifting to be a big advantage, but that's because it aggravates the nerve damage I have in my wrist less than cable activated shifting. 

I'm very unlikely to go back to cables 

Same situation i found myself in. Injured right wrist (tendonitis/carpal tunnel). Had AXS for 2.5 years, no issue. Went back to SRAM mechanical and boy was that extra effort of shifting noticeable in my wrist and thumb. It was rather shocking how much more you have to adjust your grip and thumb, definitely made me realize how much grip you can lose while shifting. 

Now, I do believe that Shimano's shifter is much more ergonomic, lighter action, and with the bidirectional upshifting, less taxing on the thumb. But to keep everything apples to oranges, no doubt in my mind that wireless is safer and more ergonomic

1
Primoz
Posts
4555
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
7/31/2024 10:21pm

Interestingly I was amazed at how flimsy and cheap XT shifter feels compared to X01 and GX mechanical shifters... So much so that Shimano became a non option for me. Plus the cage lock. 

5
1
marktuttl3
Posts
1
Joined
5/23/2019
Location
American Fork, UT US
8/1/2024 12:46am

For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and more expensive than the item it is replacing. Plus I have seen countless racers not start or take a DNF b/c they forgot to charge their battery. It boggles my mind, you do all this training and prep and then something as small as not having a charge in a battery forces you to DNS/DNF. Plus, I love the way XTR feels ergonomically, and those "pods" don't look that inviting. 

3
razorree
Posts
5
Joined
10/6/2016
Location
GB
8/1/2024 6:31am

I love Di2 on my road bike, but on MTB it's just a scam! especially with gargantuan SRAM mechs....

I had cable 12s mech from Sram, I was hitting rocks or stumps on every ride !  (I have techy and rocky trails), switching to Shimano XT M8000 solved all problems !!!

1
bizutch
Posts
1437
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
8/1/2024 7:39am Edited Date/Time 8/1/2024 7:40am
marktuttl3 wrote:
For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and...

For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and more expensive than the item it is replacing. Plus I have seen countless racers not start or take a DNF b/c they forgot to charge their battery. It boggles my mind, you do all this training and prep and then something as small as not having a charge in a battery forces you to DNS/DNF. Plus, I love the way XTR feels ergonomically, and those "pods" don't look that inviting. 

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

2
1
owl-x
Posts
887
Joined
3/23/2016
Location
Shell Beach, CA US
8/1/2024 8:21am
marktuttl3 wrote:
For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and...

For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and more expensive than the item it is replacing. Plus I have seen countless racers not start or take a DNF b/c they forgot to charge their battery. It boggles my mind, you do all this training and prep and then something as small as not having a charge in a battery forces you to DNS/DNF. Plus, I love the way XTR feels ergonomically, and those "pods" don't look that inviting. 

bizutch wrote:
Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:iPhone 12 - lightning cordSuunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp chargerGoPro - USB-C (also gotta...

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What does this mean?

 

1
8/1/2024 8:52am
marktuttl3 wrote:
For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and...

For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and more expensive than the item it is replacing. Plus I have seen countless racers not start or take a DNF b/c they forgot to charge their battery. It boggles my mind, you do all this training and prep and then something as small as not having a charge in a battery forces you to DNS/DNF. Plus, I love the way XTR feels ergonomically, and those "pods" don't look that inviting. 

bizutch wrote:
Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:iPhone 12 - lightning cordSuunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp chargerGoPro - USB-C (also gotta...

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

owl-x wrote:
I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What...

I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What does this mean?

 

I think the two of you have to kiss.

3
8/1/2024 8:53am
Primoz wrote:
Interestingly I was amazed at how flimsy and cheap XT shifter feels compared to X01 and GX mechanical shifters... So much so that Shimano became a...

Interestingly I was amazed at how flimsy and cheap XT shifter feels compared to X01 and GX mechanical shifters... So much so that Shimano became a non option for me. Plus the cage lock. 

Overall I prefer Shimano, but man that cage lock. You don't use it often, but when you do its so nice. 

2
owl-x
Posts
887
Joined
3/23/2016
Location
Shell Beach, CA US
8/1/2024 10:07am
bizutch wrote:
Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:iPhone 12 - lightning cordSuunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp chargerGoPro - USB-C (also gotta...

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

owl-x wrote:
I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What...

I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What does this mean?

 

I think the two of you have to kiss.

I feel powerless to resist! 

2
8/1/2024 12:28pm
Primoz wrote:
Interestingly I was amazed at how flimsy and cheap XT shifter feels compared to X01 and GX mechanical shifters... So much so that Shimano became a...

Interestingly I was amazed at how flimsy and cheap XT shifter feels compared to X01 and GX mechanical shifters... So much so that Shimano became a non option for me. Plus the cage lock. 

Overall I prefer Shimano, but man that cage lock. You don't use it often, but when you do its so nice. 

Yes cage lock is nice, but I much prefer having shimanos clutch to that cage lock.

1
1
bizutch
Posts
1437
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
8/1/2024 1:05pm Edited Date/Time 8/1/2024 1:07pm
marktuttl3 wrote:
For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and...

For me it comes down to cost, and weight. I am a weight weenie and can't imagine paying MORE for a part that is heavier and more expensive than the item it is replacing. Plus I have seen countless racers not start or take a DNF b/c they forgot to charge their battery. It boggles my mind, you do all this training and prep and then something as small as not having a charge in a battery forces you to DNS/DNF. Plus, I love the way XTR feels ergonomically, and those "pods" don't look that inviting. 

bizutch wrote:
Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:iPhone 12 - lightning cordSuunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp chargerGoPro - USB-C (also gotta...

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

owl-x wrote:
I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What...

I’m reeling. The guy who absolutely nailed it when he called me a “couple of VWs guy” just casually drops that he has an XTerra. What does this mean?

 

It means I live rural, go off-roading, can change clothes sitting upright in my hatch, throw muddy gear on the plastic floor & tow 4k of topsoil in my trailer. 
The thing I have in common with a VW owner is it rarely doesn’t have a mechanical issue.

3
Suns_PSD
Posts
360
Joined
10/7/2015
Location
Austin, TX US
8/1/2024 1:22pm
bizutch wrote:
Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:iPhone 12 - lightning cordSuunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp chargerGoPro - USB-C (also gotta...

Things I'm supposed to charge to walk out the door:
iPhone 12 - lightning cord
Suunto Spartan - watch specific USB-C ported clamp charger
GoPro - USB-C (also gotta delete files or swap microSD cards)

Now...they want me to not only remember to pull an exposed battery OFF my silt/mud/dust covered MTB.
I gotta do TWO. Shifter & derailleur. Then...I gotta remember to carry around a multi-port charger.
Or maybe leave it in the house? Maybe leave it in the car & charge there so I never forget a pair of candy sized powerbanks?

My Xterra has 1 cigaratte/12V charger up front, 1 in the hatch,1 in the rear seat
....but no way am I plugging stuff into 2 or 3 ports & trusting myself to remember not to drain my car battery via some glitchy trickle drain.
Leave myself stranded at a trailhead with a charged up bike and dead car?

It's just a LOT to keep track of and move around and cord and un-cord & kill and live and fade & disconnect & reconnect.
ON TOP of all the stuff I gotta charge up these days.

AND....my Oral B electric toothbrush just died!!!

You forgot to charge your dropper.

2
ChuckWall
Posts
2
Joined
8/1/2024
Location
Red Deer, AB CA
8/1/2024 3:47pm

I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still a learning curve in-and-of itself apart from electronic).  I have forgotten to re-install the AXS battery and nearly scuttled a ride...luckily there was a spare battery from a friend.  But the AXS shift is plenty fast, so it's a wash when all else is equal.

If not for the fact that an AXS X01 Rear Derailleur came equipped on my latest bike (8 mo. riding on it now) I would have previously wholly discounted any pros from the outset regarding electronic shifting (except maybe maintaining shifting speed over a longer period of time thru muddy conditions).  Now that I have some field time with AXS I'd share one small "bike dad" trivia regarding it as a system.

If the youngest riders learning to shift had "access" to AXS it would help them SO MUCH...because as the joke goes...if you sneeze wrong AXS will shift! But for those little ones, that's exactly the light touch they'd need.  Except it's not back-compatible with 10spd or 11spd officially...too bad.

So once you swallow the cost pill, if you were to throw AXS on a kids bike (and it fit) they would actually learn to shift and level up the trails they can clear because you'd take down the "force barrier" of a mechanical shift...which doesn't exist for pre-teen hands of normal dexterity.  If I new then what I know now, I'd have reverted my own rig to a rear mech and bump-down the "electronic crap" to the kids! 

Figured I'd share this food for thought onto the interweb.  The battery is supplying the actuation force, not the kids hand, so it levels the playing field for them to progress sooner.  

Anecdotal Backstory:
A 5.5 yr old could not shift a GX 10spd shifter (a normally used 4 seasons' old Spawn YJ) without a big arm motion (or a stop and Dad would pre-shift) >50% of shifts meant kid rode off the trail.  Most of the time kid would not attempt to shift.
A 6.0 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (brand new) with an exaggerated motion.
A 6.5 yr old can just shift GX 10spd shifter (re-greased/lubed & 5 seasons' old)...still an exaggerated motion...but after a single year of kindergarten the increased forearm strength from writing daily helped...but only at 65%!
A 6.5 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (1 season old, in excellent condition)...still exaggerated motion...but less so on when on a better maintained shifter.

Mechanical System's drawbacks:
Kids' mech shifts often cause wobbling off a singletrack trail into brush at 5yr old, less-so at 6 yr old, but by 6.5yrs they just begin to tame learning gears...and that's the experience with a higher-end group (GX) on a kids bike. I've coached other kids and the shifting is worse or not done when it's a SRAM X-4 or X-5 RD.   But what could happen in 1.5yrs if you had a developmentally appropriate electronic shift assist?  If I had realized this PRO sooner I probably would have spec'd AXS on their initial geared bike (or upgraded) that kids bike as soon as they transitioned off of smaller fixed speed 16" bikes onto 20" geared.  

TL;DR

So SRAM; please patch your software to provide 10spd and 11spd compatibility for 12spd AXS mech...do it for the kids!

A 6 yr old child's mech shift is a bit better than at 5yrs but often is still hesitated-enough (because it has to be a pre-planned action... generating the needed force requires preparation and focus that distracts from other actions) and hence the pedaling is usually interrupted and momentum lost... crucial for making a rooty short punchy climb (for a kid on green).  My eldest child at 6.5yr could shift the GX when brand new, and at 7.0yr had no issues with it just in time to progress to the next bike size. The actuation force for a 10-spd Shimano XT RD-M786 paired with Deore M6000 10spd shifter is less and would be a cheaper middle-road alternative...the thumb-sweep feels like less angle to 'click'.  

2
8/1/2024 4:27pm

I have 12sp XT on one bike, and GX Transmission on the other. If you go mechanical, Shimano is hands down the best, but if you want the best shift every single time, AXS is unbeatable. My only gripe with electronic shifting is, I had GX AXS prior, and that mech laterally fell apart in just one year.

2
Primoz
Posts
4555
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
8/2/2024 3:34am
ChuckWall wrote:
I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still...

I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still a learning curve in-and-of itself apart from electronic).  I have forgotten to re-install the AXS battery and nearly scuttled a ride...luckily there was a spare battery from a friend.  But the AXS shift is plenty fast, so it's a wash when all else is equal.

If not for the fact that an AXS X01 Rear Derailleur came equipped on my latest bike (8 mo. riding on it now) I would have previously wholly discounted any pros from the outset regarding electronic shifting (except maybe maintaining shifting speed over a longer period of time thru muddy conditions).  Now that I have some field time with AXS I'd share one small "bike dad" trivia regarding it as a system.

If the youngest riders learning to shift had "access" to AXS it would help them SO MUCH...because as the joke goes...if you sneeze wrong AXS will shift! But for those little ones, that's exactly the light touch they'd need.  Except it's not back-compatible with 10spd or 11spd officially...too bad.

So once you swallow the cost pill, if you were to throw AXS on a kids bike (and it fit) they would actually learn to shift and level up the trails they can clear because you'd take down the "force barrier" of a mechanical shift...which doesn't exist for pre-teen hands of normal dexterity.  If I new then what I know now, I'd have reverted my own rig to a rear mech and bump-down the "electronic crap" to the kids! 

Figured I'd share this food for thought onto the interweb.  The battery is supplying the actuation force, not the kids hand, so it levels the playing field for them to progress sooner.  

Anecdotal Backstory:
A 5.5 yr old could not shift a GX 10spd shifter (a normally used 4 seasons' old Spawn YJ) without a big arm motion (or a stop and Dad would pre-shift) >50% of shifts meant kid rode off the trail.  Most of the time kid would not attempt to shift.
A 6.0 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (brand new) with an exaggerated motion.
A 6.5 yr old can just shift GX 10spd shifter (re-greased/lubed & 5 seasons' old)...still an exaggerated motion...but after a single year of kindergarten the increased forearm strength from writing daily helped...but only at 65%!
A 6.5 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (1 season old, in excellent condition)...still exaggerated motion...but less so on when on a better maintained shifter.

Mechanical System's drawbacks:
Kids' mech shifts often cause wobbling off a singletrack trail into brush at 5yr old, less-so at 6 yr old, but by 6.5yrs they just begin to tame learning gears...and that's the experience with a higher-end group (GX) on a kids bike. I've coached other kids and the shifting is worse or not done when it's a SRAM X-4 or X-5 RD.   But what could happen in 1.5yrs if you had a developmentally appropriate electronic shift assist?  If I had realized this PRO sooner I probably would have spec'd AXS on their initial geared bike (or upgraded) that kids bike as soon as they transitioned off of smaller fixed speed 16" bikes onto 20" geared.  

TL;DR

So SRAM; please patch your software to provide 10spd and 11spd compatibility for 12spd AXS mech...do it for the kids!

A 6 yr old child's mech shift is a bit better than at 5yrs but often is still hesitated-enough (because it has to be a pre-planned action... generating the needed force requires preparation and focus that distracts from other actions) and hence the pedaling is usually interrupted and momentum lost... crucial for making a rooty short punchy climb (for a kid on green).  My eldest child at 6.5yr could shift the GX when brand new, and at 7.0yr had no issues with it just in time to progress to the next bike size. The actuation force for a 10-spd Shimano XT RD-M786 paired with Deore M6000 10spd shifter is less and would be a cheaper middle-road alternative...the thumb-sweep feels like less angle to 'click'.  

Archer DX can shift any mechanical derailleur wirelessly... Also there are some Chinese solutions coming up. 

2
bizutch
Posts
1437
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
Fletcher, NC US
Fantasy
8/2/2024 5:43am
ChuckWall wrote:
I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still...

I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still a learning curve in-and-of itself apart from electronic).  I have forgotten to re-install the AXS battery and nearly scuttled a ride...luckily there was a spare battery from a friend.  But the AXS shift is plenty fast, so it's a wash when all else is equal.

If not for the fact that an AXS X01 Rear Derailleur came equipped on my latest bike (8 mo. riding on it now) I would have previously wholly discounted any pros from the outset regarding electronic shifting (except maybe maintaining shifting speed over a longer period of time thru muddy conditions).  Now that I have some field time with AXS I'd share one small "bike dad" trivia regarding it as a system.

If the youngest riders learning to shift had "access" to AXS it would help them SO MUCH...because as the joke goes...if you sneeze wrong AXS will shift! But for those little ones, that's exactly the light touch they'd need.  Except it's not back-compatible with 10spd or 11spd officially...too bad.

So once you swallow the cost pill, if you were to throw AXS on a kids bike (and it fit) they would actually learn to shift and level up the trails they can clear because you'd take down the "force barrier" of a mechanical shift...which doesn't exist for pre-teen hands of normal dexterity.  If I new then what I know now, I'd have reverted my own rig to a rear mech and bump-down the "electronic crap" to the kids! 

Figured I'd share this food for thought onto the interweb.  The battery is supplying the actuation force, not the kids hand, so it levels the playing field for them to progress sooner.  

Anecdotal Backstory:
A 5.5 yr old could not shift a GX 10spd shifter (a normally used 4 seasons' old Spawn YJ) without a big arm motion (or a stop and Dad would pre-shift) >50% of shifts meant kid rode off the trail.  Most of the time kid would not attempt to shift.
A 6.0 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (brand new) with an exaggerated motion.
A 6.5 yr old can just shift GX 10spd shifter (re-greased/lubed & 5 seasons' old)...still an exaggerated motion...but after a single year of kindergarten the increased forearm strength from writing daily helped...but only at 65%!
A 6.5 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (1 season old, in excellent condition)...still exaggerated motion...but less so on when on a better maintained shifter.

Mechanical System's drawbacks:
Kids' mech shifts often cause wobbling off a singletrack trail into brush at 5yr old, less-so at 6 yr old, but by 6.5yrs they just begin to tame learning gears...and that's the experience with a higher-end group (GX) on a kids bike. I've coached other kids and the shifting is worse or not done when it's a SRAM X-4 or X-5 RD.   But what could happen in 1.5yrs if you had a developmentally appropriate electronic shift assist?  If I had realized this PRO sooner I probably would have spec'd AXS on their initial geared bike (or upgraded) that kids bike as soon as they transitioned off of smaller fixed speed 16" bikes onto 20" geared.  

TL;DR

So SRAM; please patch your software to provide 10spd and 11spd compatibility for 12spd AXS mech...do it for the kids!

A 6 yr old child's mech shift is a bit better than at 5yrs but often is still hesitated-enough (because it has to be a pre-planned action... generating the needed force requires preparation and focus that distracts from other actions) and hence the pedaling is usually interrupted and momentum lost... crucial for making a rooty short punchy climb (for a kid on green).  My eldest child at 6.5yr could shift the GX when brand new, and at 7.0yr had no issues with it just in time to progress to the next bike size. The actuation force for a 10-spd Shimano XT RD-M786 paired with Deore M6000 10spd shifter is less and would be a cheaper middle-road alternative...the thumb-sweep feels like less angle to 'click'.  

Primoz wrote:

Archer DX can shift any mechanical derailleur wirelessly... Also there are some Chinese solutions coming up. 

It's funny. I've been dying to buy their shifter forever yet have no desire for "Transmission".

1
ChuckWall
Posts
2
Joined
8/1/2024
Location
Red Deer, AB CA
8/2/2024 8:16am
ChuckWall wrote:
I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still...

I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still a learning curve in-and-of itself apart from electronic).  I have forgotten to re-install the AXS battery and nearly scuttled a ride...luckily there was a spare battery from a friend.  But the AXS shift is plenty fast, so it's a wash when all else is equal.

If not for the fact that an AXS X01 Rear Derailleur came equipped on my latest bike (8 mo. riding on it now) I would have previously wholly discounted any pros from the outset regarding electronic shifting (except maybe maintaining shifting speed over a longer period of time thru muddy conditions).  Now that I have some field time with AXS I'd share one small "bike dad" trivia regarding it as a system.

If the youngest riders learning to shift had "access" to AXS it would help them SO MUCH...because as the joke goes...if you sneeze wrong AXS will shift! But for those little ones, that's exactly the light touch they'd need.  Except it's not back-compatible with 10spd or 11spd officially...too bad.

So once you swallow the cost pill, if you were to throw AXS on a kids bike (and it fit) they would actually learn to shift and level up the trails they can clear because you'd take down the "force barrier" of a mechanical shift...which doesn't exist for pre-teen hands of normal dexterity.  If I new then what I know now, I'd have reverted my own rig to a rear mech and bump-down the "electronic crap" to the kids! 

Figured I'd share this food for thought onto the interweb.  The battery is supplying the actuation force, not the kids hand, so it levels the playing field for them to progress sooner.  

Anecdotal Backstory:
A 5.5 yr old could not shift a GX 10spd shifter (a normally used 4 seasons' old Spawn YJ) without a big arm motion (or a stop and Dad would pre-shift) >50% of shifts meant kid rode off the trail.  Most of the time kid would not attempt to shift.
A 6.0 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (brand new) with an exaggerated motion.
A 6.5 yr old can just shift GX 10spd shifter (re-greased/lubed & 5 seasons' old)...still an exaggerated motion...but after a single year of kindergarten the increased forearm strength from writing daily helped...but only at 65%!
A 6.5 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (1 season old, in excellent condition)...still exaggerated motion...but less so on when on a better maintained shifter.

Mechanical System's drawbacks:
Kids' mech shifts often cause wobbling off a singletrack trail into brush at 5yr old, less-so at 6 yr old, but by 6.5yrs they just begin to tame learning gears...and that's the experience with a higher-end group (GX) on a kids bike. I've coached other kids and the shifting is worse or not done when it's a SRAM X-4 or X-5 RD.   But what could happen in 1.5yrs if you had a developmentally appropriate electronic shift assist?  If I had realized this PRO sooner I probably would have spec'd AXS on their initial geared bike (or upgraded) that kids bike as soon as they transitioned off of smaller fixed speed 16" bikes onto 20" geared.  

TL;DR

So SRAM; please patch your software to provide 10spd and 11spd compatibility for 12spd AXS mech...do it for the kids!

A 6 yr old child's mech shift is a bit better than at 5yrs but often is still hesitated-enough (because it has to be a pre-planned action... generating the needed force requires preparation and focus that distracts from other actions) and hence the pedaling is usually interrupted and momentum lost... crucial for making a rooty short punchy climb (for a kid on green).  My eldest child at 6.5yr could shift the GX when brand new, and at 7.0yr had no issues with it just in time to progress to the next bike size. The actuation force for a 10-spd Shimano XT RD-M786 paired with Deore M6000 10spd shifter is less and would be a cheaper middle-road alternative...the thumb-sweep feels like less angle to 'click'.  

Primoz wrote:

Archer DX can shift any mechanical derailleur wirelessly... Also there are some Chinese solutions coming up. 

I wish I had known about that product range!  Now looks like the company is shuttering...too bad...that's a great idea, here's the link:

Archer Components

3
t-rick
Posts
42
Joined
12/22/2021
Location
San Diego, CA US
8/2/2024 10:36am
boozed wrote:
Option 6: I've never used an electronic drivetrain so I have no opinion at this time.I'm fundamentally a tightarse though and SRAM mechanical drivetrains are already...

Option 6: I've never used an electronic drivetrain so I have no opinion at this time.

I'm fundamentally a tightarse though and SRAM mechanical drivetrains are already poor value.

Yep. Same here. I have demo'd an ebike with transmission for a day. AND was very impressed. But I'll be maybe own a used AXS system one day. And thats it for now. 

1
Sebov
Posts
1
Joined
12/28/2018
Location
DE
8/2/2024 10:55am
"I would say I personally haven’t seen too many problems with T Type AXS. But one thing I have seen on high mileage e bikes is...

"I would say I personally haven’t seen too many problems with T Type AXS. But one thing I have seen on high mileage e bikes is once there is some wear in the chain the shifting quality goes down and there is no adjustment on the mech to account for that. Fitting a new chain if the cassette allows fixes the shifting. \"

Tom - I'm guessing by wear by you mean more lateral flex in the chain and not chain elongation.  But I'd greatly appreciate a touch more info on your experience.  

That new Abbey chain checker is so long overdue.  I've played around with a new chain and an older chain trying to measure the increase in lateral flex.  I'd be super curious to know the dimensions of their tool.  My experience with XO1 mechanical is that too much lateral flex in the chain and wearing down of the shifting ramps comes before too much chain elongation (I've got one of the three-prong tools, so I think I'm measuring it as best as possible).  But were I live the only time I really ride in the wet is at private bike parks.

I've though about Transmission for my mid-powered eMTB to see if I can get more life out of the chain and cassette.  But I'm very worried about TeamRobot's experience.  I think it'd drive me nuts to go back and forth between mechanical and electric shifting, and I have zero interest in going electric on three bikes.  I've ridden electric around the parking lot and personally find it to feel very disconnected. 

I think people's opinions on this issue are highly influenced by whether they buy frames or buy complete bikes.  People discerning/picky enough to buy frames and build them up are much more likely to allocate dollars to suspension, brakes, etc. and not have any interest in electric shifting.  Avid riders that buy complete bikes are likely buying higher-end models, so they probably have had electric shifting foisted upon them, gotten used to it, and accepted it.  

Also, whether someone has a single bike they lavish with all the most expensive things or multiple bikes across which they are allocating dollars probably plays a role.

I buy frames (or base model eMTBs and part them out) and have three bikes, so I'll probably hold out against electric shifting until the bitter end.  I'd bet my number of and approach to bikes describes a lot of the people who feel similarly about electric shifting.

Tom wrote:
Don’t want to risk derailing another thread as this was I think created from the tech rumours one going off track. But yeah regarding T Type and...

Don’t want to risk derailing another thread as this was I think created from the tech rumours one going off track. 

But yeah regarding T Type and drivetrain wear. I can’t remember all the numbers and details (got them at work if needed). This customer puts a lot of miles in on a full powered e bike and he knows that and would regularly buy GX Eagle cassettes and XO chains. The sales pitch of in SRAM’s own word “It simplifies, strengthens and extends lifespan to new limits.” Sold it to him and he brought the GX T Type group set. 
After a bit of time he brought it in saying the gears were not working properly. They were not shifting very well, the set up was correct to what sram said and the only adjustment available is the trim adjustment on the mech, that made no difference. With a Park CC4 chain checker I think it was just over 0.5 but not yet 0.75%. Fitted a new chain and the gears work perfectly again. 
I think the problem partially as you said lateral wear but also as the chain wears and elongates there is no b tension adjustment. 
What was good, was that the T Type cassette took a new chain. 
I have found the rule book about chain wear and chain replacement go out the window with a full powered e bike. Until replacing that chain on a T Type cassette I don’t think I have ever successfully replaced a chain on an e bike and it hasn’t slipped. I remember replacing one that had only done 200 miles and even that slipped! 

In regards to full powered e bikes and none T Type gears, we just advise customers to wear their drivetrains into the ground and just replace everything at the same time. 
You can test the bikes with the motors turned off and they seem fine, turn them on, put them in turbo and they then start slipping. 

He started with a GX chain and I fitted a X0 chain as previously none T Type Eagle X0 and higher chains last a lot longer than GX and below. I keeped an eye on his chain wear and surprisingly the X0 T Type chain didn’t seem too last longer than the GX one. He eventually needed a new chain again but this time the cassette did not take it and was slipping under load. 
I think it’s probably far to say on a full powered e bike you should get two chains worth of wear out of a T Type cassette. 

We haven’t really seen much Shimano Link Glide in the shop, but we did have one case where a customer had it on his e-bike and he changed his chain when he thought was the right time and it slipped on the smaller cogs which are replaceable but they hadn’t come into stock at that point so he had to buy a new cassette too. 

These large cassettes also seem pointless on full powered e bikes. You can tell customers to use the full range of gears but most of the time gears 1-3 look untouched on quite a lot of bikes we see. 
If I had an e bike I would just run the cheapest gears I would be happy to run. Probably 11sp XT Link Glide shifter and mech with a 10sp Deore Link Glide cassette. 

I understand if you have got an SL e bike you might want something a bit lighter with more range and T Type might be the way to go   

For what it’s worth I think SRAM cassettes wear very well on 100% human powered biked X0 cassettes and hight can take many chains. So SRAM’s claims of “It simplifies, strengthens and extends lifespan to new limits.”  Might be very true on those bikes. 

As for chain wear tools, to be honest it’s all a little educated guesswork. Personally I have had good experiences replacing eagle X0 chain once they read 0.5% and that can take a long time to get to that point.  I have used the Pedros, Park and SRAM three peg tools. 

Interestingly I have just looked at Sram’s replacement wear recommendations and they don’t seem to list a wear reading any more for T Type.

——————

“CHAIN, CASSETTE, AND CHAINRING REPLACEMENT

The chain, cassette, and chainring wear together over time as a result of normal use. Parts will last longer with regular cleaning.

To determine if the parts need to be replaced, consult the Transmission Service Matrix. Depending on use case, it may be best to change the parts together to restore optimal drivetrain performance.”

——————

It used to say the same as the road flat top chain replacement, but I wouldn’t want to leave a chain to get too 0.8%

————     

CHAIN REPLACEMENT

Replace your chain at 0.8% elongation to maintain performance and limit wear to the cassette and chainring.

NOTICE

Flattop chains last longer than 10/11 speed road chains. Replacing a Flattop chain too early may prematurely wear the chainring and cassette.

For a list of approved chain tools, consult the Eagle, Flattop and 11 speed Chain Compatible Tools compatibility map on www.sram.com/service.

————-

I personally find the SRAM tool very vague to use, I think the idea is to put pressure above and below the two prongs then just let the third prong drop into the chain to get your reading, but it’s very easy even on a new chain to put the third prong in too far and get a faulty reading.  
The Abbey tool is interesting (I will probably end up getting one) and should give accurate repeatable reading with more reading points. I like the idea of the 0.25 reading. The lateral wear reading is interesting but still left up to the user as what to do as it only says “consider replacement”. Also it’s not very practical in a shop environment to take a customers chain off to measure it especially if you were to go by the guide lines of not reusing split links! 
Lateral wear is a good consideration, I just had a play with a Park spoke tension meter. Measured a chain at different points in the same way but got a different readings so that’s pointless. I think the measure area was too short but a longer tool in that style could work.

IMG 1179

Interesting. I have a Gen 1 Levo SL. My GX mechanical cassette and chain didn‘t last one year of riding and commuting - but I rode a lot of km with the motor turned off while commuting: but hammering just the 12t cog even on small uphill sections. After this I bought X01 cassette and chain: WAY better. Replaced the chains regularly and the cassette is still lasting. 
But after this experience I went for XT Linkglide on my new Heckler SL. Heavy. But so much cheaper. Don’t want to spend that much money for the constant drivetrain wear. This season was a desaster for me due to health issues so I can’t really tell about longtime experiences. I am still hoping to safe some money. Range is a non issue on a motorized bike. 

1
ballz
Posts
475
Joined
7/30/2024
Location
Ouagadougou EH
8/2/2024 3:40pm
ChuckWall wrote:
I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still...

I prefer mechanical for it's simplicity and reliability regardless of SRAM/Shimano groupset it belongs too once you've attained the necessary mechanical ability to sustain it (still a learning curve in-and-of itself apart from electronic).  I have forgotten to re-install the AXS battery and nearly scuttled a ride...luckily there was a spare battery from a friend.  But the AXS shift is plenty fast, so it's a wash when all else is equal.

If not for the fact that an AXS X01 Rear Derailleur came equipped on my latest bike (8 mo. riding on it now) I would have previously wholly discounted any pros from the outset regarding electronic shifting (except maybe maintaining shifting speed over a longer period of time thru muddy conditions).  Now that I have some field time with AXS I'd share one small "bike dad" trivia regarding it as a system.

If the youngest riders learning to shift had "access" to AXS it would help them SO MUCH...because as the joke goes...if you sneeze wrong AXS will shift! But for those little ones, that's exactly the light touch they'd need.  Except it's not back-compatible with 10spd or 11spd officially...too bad.

So once you swallow the cost pill, if you were to throw AXS on a kids bike (and it fit) they would actually learn to shift and level up the trails they can clear because you'd take down the "force barrier" of a mechanical shift...which doesn't exist for pre-teen hands of normal dexterity.  If I new then what I know now, I'd have reverted my own rig to a rear mech and bump-down the "electronic crap" to the kids! 

Figured I'd share this food for thought onto the interweb.  The battery is supplying the actuation force, not the kids hand, so it levels the playing field for them to progress sooner.  

Anecdotal Backstory:
A 5.5 yr old could not shift a GX 10spd shifter (a normally used 4 seasons' old Spawn YJ) without a big arm motion (or a stop and Dad would pre-shift) >50% of shifts meant kid rode off the trail.  Most of the time kid would not attempt to shift.
A 6.0 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (brand new) with an exaggerated motion.
A 6.5 yr old can just shift GX 10spd shifter (re-greased/lubed & 5 seasons' old)...still an exaggerated motion...but after a single year of kindergarten the increased forearm strength from writing daily helped...but only at 65%!
A 6.5 yr old can shift a GX 10spd shifter (1 season old, in excellent condition)...still exaggerated motion...but less so on when on a better maintained shifter.

Mechanical System's drawbacks:
Kids' mech shifts often cause wobbling off a singletrack trail into brush at 5yr old, less-so at 6 yr old, but by 6.5yrs they just begin to tame learning gears...and that's the experience with a higher-end group (GX) on a kids bike. I've coached other kids and the shifting is worse or not done when it's a SRAM X-4 or X-5 RD.   But what could happen in 1.5yrs if you had a developmentally appropriate electronic shift assist?  If I had realized this PRO sooner I probably would have spec'd AXS on their initial geared bike (or upgraded) that kids bike as soon as they transitioned off of smaller fixed speed 16" bikes onto 20" geared.  

TL;DR

So SRAM; please patch your software to provide 10spd and 11spd compatibility for 12spd AXS mech...do it for the kids!

A 6 yr old child's mech shift is a bit better than at 5yrs but often is still hesitated-enough (because it has to be a pre-planned action... generating the needed force requires preparation and focus that distracts from other actions) and hence the pedaling is usually interrupted and momentum lost... crucial for making a rooty short punchy climb (for a kid on green).  My eldest child at 6.5yr could shift the GX when brand new, and at 7.0yr had no issues with it just in time to progress to the next bike size. The actuation force for a 10-spd Shimano XT RD-M786 paired with Deore M6000 10spd shifter is less and would be a cheaper middle-road alternative...the thumb-sweep feels like less angle to 'click'.  

Primoz wrote:

Archer DX can shift any mechanical derailleur wirelessly... Also there are some Chinese solutions coming up. 

ChuckWall wrote:

I wish I had known about that product range!  Now looks like the company is shuttering...too bad...that's a great idea, here's the link:

Archer Components

It's good, too bad about them shuttering.

2

Post a reply to: Poll: Electric shifting vs mechanical shifting

The Latest