Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
Contrary to popular opinion OneUp carbon bars made my hand fatigue 10x worse. I think that they aren't really as compliant when you cut them down to 750... I actually went back to aluminium bars because of them and feel much better now. Running 40mm of rise helped immediately aswell. Also: brakes with "modulation" or huge lever throw are what caused armpump for me aswell, so no Codes or Curas.
Lots of info on bar compliance from this BikeRumor Bar Test
https://bikerumor.com/does-handlebar-compliance-make-a-difference-facti…
Where they weighted the bar(see photo below), the width of 800-750 shouldn't really matter, the 35mm rise and ebike bar actually seem to be a tad softer. Numbers on paper don't lie but ride feel to different people could "feel" different.
You get used to the softness in the steering, no problem.
A softer bar did help me with grip confidence (my hand was moving over the grip less) which meant I also squeezed the grip less. Besides taking the edge off all the hits and chatter and the like.
I did also mention in the tech rumors thread, a 20 mm OneUp Carbon bar is as soft/stiff as an aluminium 35 mm Turbine R bar is.
Two things that have helped me most are:
1) Raising levers to be near horizontal; and
2) Fasst Flexx handlebars.
I second what you said about having a more standardised approach to marking bar roll! I recently installed some one up bars and was very impressed to see the head angle marked on the bars, makes it super simple to set them up.
To me oneup bars had a negative when it came to tech sections and riding where Im pulling and pushing the bike around, too much flex. A good set of carbon bars is best and in the right positon.
I found grips and brake angle to be the biggest change.
Grips I went with Trail 1 Hells Gate, they are a bit thicker than ODI Elite Pro I was running forever, once broken in the grips feel amazing! I can run my hands a bit looser on the grips and the extra cushion helps too.
Brake position I tried to go more and more flat over the years but found that I would be pulling the lever at a weird angle under hard braking making my fingers cramp up on long dh (20 minute runs). So I moved them down back to where I would run them a few years ago. Both of those have made arm pump almost disappear on the long runs we have around here.
Here is the problem with fine tuning setups: you have to ride, like really, ride, 100+ miles at least, to give a new setup an honest shake down. I like my brake levers a bit high and screw in the reach adjust to be as close to the bar as possible. That way you ride with your wrists rolled back, like in a pushup position. With your fingers on the levers, you can actually pull them from rolling your wrists further back instead of relying solely on forearm muscle. I've advised this to others and they hated it. Its like changing your piano technique- it takes a dozen hours to really know if the change is good.
Like flexy bars or a right side up fork- the flex screws up your reflexes, since you steer not with your mind but with your brain stem. You have to give your body time to "grow" new programming for bike handling before you can truly pass judgement.
A couple reasons to be cautious drawing conclusions from data like the bike rumour handlebar stiffness test results above:
First, it would be good to know going in what the minimum meaningful difference is, whether that's the smallest difference the rider can perceive or the smallest difference the rider would rate as better or worse or whatever. It's purely for reasons of readability or page formatting that the scale of a graph is set, and the visual appearance can exaggerate or minimize the differences in a way that's unhelpful.
Relatedly, it would be good to know to what extent stiffness specifically as it's measured in the test relates to the rider's perception of stiffness or some composite feeling like comfort. If, say, some damping factor made up a large part of feel, or some goldilocks balance of stiffness X damping, then comparing two bars through one lens only could be misleading. Two bars that measure the same in one axis really could ride different. Two bars that measure different could ride similarly.
Lastly, if Bike Rumour had pulled 20 bars of each SKU, how much would they vary within SKU? Maybe the industrial process that forms an aluminum bar is so precise that every bar that leaves the factory is indistinguishable. I don't know. But are carbon fiber bars each the same?
For example, compare One Up Carbon C35 R20 and One Up Carbon Bar C35 R35, looks like 375ish lbs/in and 420ish lbs/in respectively. If you caught their bar designer at the trailhead and asked, do you supposed he or she would say that that stiffness difference was planned and have some rationale? If we were to learn that the whole data set should have error bars of 45 lbs/in for production variation or that companies' internal testing showed riders didn't much care about differences less than 45 lbs/in, almost that whole row of bars would plot out as a flat line, the whole middle zone essentially indistinguishable with some differences at the extremes.
error bars. ha!
Best investment I’ve made on this topic was a 5-10eur grip strength ring (the ones you squeeze). Used it once per day max but noticed a huge difference in hand strength and arm pump. Kind of dumb but also really effective- during Covid I did brake finger intervals while sitting on a bike with mechanical brakes and a hard lever pull (few sets of 50-100 lever pulls). Whatever works for you but I’ve had more luck with training than swapping components.
On the bike, the French brake angle (almost parallel to the bar) also helped, especially when riding steeper tech all day.
How many high level rock climbers would experience arm pump in MTB?
I think Cubital Tunnel syndrome isn’t diagnosed often enough when “Arm Pump” comes up. This was something I thought was arm pump that was happening after turning 40 years old. The numbness at night and on rides was more so something I assumed was getting old. If you have symptoms; grip strength is a big determinant. A good orthopedic doctor can test for it. My left arm was really bad and before I had surgery I had extreme pain at the “Funny bone” spot on my elbow. When I say pain I mean if a drop of water from the shower head hit it I would notice.
Yea, I agree completely. I spent years gaslighting myself into thinking it was my fitness, bike setup, technique, etc and even when I had surgery there was that seed of doubt that I was wasting my surgeons time, but he said he found pretty significant damage on both sides and both sides were really tight. He originally didn't want to operate on the right side until we saw how the left responded, but pretty much immediately after doing the left he strongly suggested doing the right as he felt it was likely to be the same and it was. I tried to deal with it 7ish years ago but the surgeon I saw then (different than my current one) largely wrote me off, which didn't help my perspective on what the root of the issue was.
It wasn't until I asked some friends how they deal with the hand pain they feel at night after riding and they looked at me like I was crazy that I realized this wasn't normal.
That's why I made the comment I did. If you have lasting pain in your hands, numbness, tingling, or lack of dexterity after riding then there may be a more severe underlying issue. If you spend 3-4 days at a bike park and your hands feel tired, maybe not, but loss of grip strength and these other things are not normal. FWIW I first noticed I had a problem 10 years ago when I spent 3 days at a bike park and couldn't hold things as well, it progressively got worse to the point I couldn't do a 4 mile ride without feeling persistent pain for a month after. There's shocking little data on this for mountain bikers, a lot from road cycling, tennis, baseball, and even moto, but very little attention given to it for mountain bikers and I'd be surprised if there aren't a lot of people who require surgery later in life because they have nerve problems aggravated by riding bikes that got worse as they age.
So what exactly was the issue? Was surgery the only way? Are you happy with the outcome?
I tore the TFCC cartilage in my left wrist a few years back and luckily repaired it with prolotherapy, which was pretty non-intrusive compared to the possible surgeries that didn't have great outcomes. I later had other wrist issues which I solved with PRP. Pricey and extremely painful but it totally solved the issue in my wrist as well as my elbow tendonitis. Highly recommend people with grip/wrist issues to explore these non-surgical interventions as an alternative to surgery where applicable.
All of that is in combination with acupuncture, IMS, mobility/stretching and lots of varied strength work plus the usual experiments with stems, bar width/rise/sweep/roll, grip diameter, suspension setup, etc. If you want to keep riding you need to explore every option. I don't know anyone who was more diligent at exploring and considering alternatives. I'm 100% pain free now and everything works great and I have cockpit setups that work just right (and now I'm so dialled in that minor changes are very noticeable).
My Ulnar nerve in both arms, particularly the left, was compressed in my elbow. When my elbow bent, nerve conduction was decreased and the tissue surrounding the nerve was progressively damaging the nerve. If you watch ulnar transposition surgery on YT you can see it, the diameter of the nerve becomes much smaller around the compression point. Go step on a thin hose with water running through it and see where the hose narrows where your foot is, slows water passing through, and bulges slightly near your foot. That but with my Ulnar nerve, every time I bent my elbow.
My surgeon said he usually refers people to OT for 4-5 months before operating and typically only does one side at a time, however I had spent 5-6 months in PT prior to surgery (and many months in different years prior with different PTs) only for it to continue getting worse. I think that's what drove him to operate right away, I've been told by others he's pretty conservative and only operates when he feels every other option has been tried.
I did a lot. I bought basically every component on the bike you could find to try and help. My stash of handlebars, grips, and (now sold) brakes is embarrassing. I tried tires, inserts, wheels, frames, grips, gloves, all of it. I found what helped and what made it worse. I've concluded some of these things make it works (brakes are a huge huge part) or better, but ultimately it's an ergonomic issue with the way the nerve bends around my elbow and/or wrist, so they only function to mitigate it.
Off the bike I did PT with several different PTs including a hand therapist for probably a sum total of at least a year if not much longer. I spent a lot of time in the gym trying to create better left/right strength balance. I changed my diet and lost weight, increased strength, did yoga daily, and the list goes on. I tried everything only for it to get worse. I also worked with skills coaches to try and address any body position or technique things I could to try and pull weight off my hands.
Was surgery the only way? I am not sure but I feel like I tried everything I could, on and off the bike. A lot of people and things helped, but it only got worse the more I rode and the older I got. The year I turned 40 it escalated in a 6 month window more than it had in years prior and nothing else had really changed, so it wasn't getting better.
Am I happy with the outcome? Last July I quit riding entirely until surgery because I couldn't hold onto the bars any longer, I was spending 80% of a DH managing pain and having to stop repeatedly. Eventually it started impacting day to day life, sleep, etc and that's when I recognized it was more severe than I had convinced myself. I can now ride, I stop half as much, and pain rarely follows me after the bike. I'm happy that I've regained hand function, sleep better, and can at least ride without feeling hand problems a month after, I'm not happy that it still hurts when I ride and I still have to stop on some trails, but I'm hoping that improves as the nerve heals.
Thanks for sharing all that. What a journey!
Hand/claw pain has been my biggest bane in long enduro stages. I’ve switched to thicker silicon grips (I have big hands), and put on Hayes Dominions (the reviews talk about hand pain a lot), I’ve done grip strengthening exercises daily, and these things all help a bit but not totally. I haven’t had any 15 minute stages yet this season, but I did just have my best finish ever in a local single stage race where I placed 5th.
none of the adjustments I’ve made to the bike or the exercises help nearly as much as checking in with myself during a race run to consciously ease up on the death grip. At the end of that 5th place run, I didn’t have any pain in my hands at all. Especially compared to the pain in the little tendons/muscles in my feet. Maybe that’s a whole new thing to talk about, actually. Anyone else get that?
Anyways. That’s been my journey with hand pain and latest update.
Regarding your foot question, yes, had that problem too, in 2 situations. The first is when using either a flat pedal/shoe combo with insufficient grip, so I was reflexively trying to "grip" the pedals with my toes. Any of the top sticky rubber shoes and current big/grippy pedals would resolve it. The second was when using SPDs with shoes which had the cleat slots unusually far forward, such that I felt like I was riding on my tippy toes. That caused a tremendous amount of foot and ankle tension and fatigue. Switching back to better designed shoes, and slamming the cleats all the way back, (some allow nearly a midfoot cleat position now) totally resolved that.
Regardless of having a good or bad shoe/pedal setup, in terms of technique, dropping the heels when descending makes a huge difference for me in allowing a relaxed, stable, foot and leg musculature due the natural stability of the posture.
I keep hearing this argument and make no sense of it.
When I'm in my attack position, my arms are in a similar angle to my head angle. When I'm going down anything steep, I move slightly back but ideally not very far. I think I live in a fairly steep area. My levers are in a similar angle to the head tube and in no situation other than me sitting on the ground next to the bike do I find the position awkward to reach.
Tried raising it up quite a few times, but every single time it came with arm pump, lesser ability to push my outside grip and I just couldn't feel comfortable at all. Tired adjusting gradually to get used to it, and still very soon I hit a point where i go back down.
Funnily enough, to me pointing levers down was actually part of the solution to arm pump and shoulder issues at the same time. It helps me get in a proper attack position, not hang off the back and stay strong in my shoulders, while giving me control in steep terrain.
Along with that a powerful set of brakes is mandatory, decent suspension you'd want to have for all sorts of reasons anyways. I'm a fan of the OneUp bar, but the oneup grip actually makes a bigger difference to me. Also riding a lot is a good way to eliminate arm pump. Maybe move to Whistler for a few summers and you're set.
Do you have any pictures or video of you riding? Because it's very hard to picture how your forearms could be a similar plane to your head angle. Seems like they'd be pointed straight at the ground.
A long time ago, before suspension and disc brakes, it was a common suggestion from armchair experts to set your levers so the top of your forearms and the back of your hands form a straight line. Terrible advice as it puts tremendous force into the thumb joints, but probably great for not having nerve issues in the wrist. Imagine trying to bench press in that position with the weight on your thumb instead on the heal of the hand.
I suppose by similar I mean closer to the fork's angle than horizontal, though I haven't really got any pictures from recent years since I moved my position much further forward. My assessment may be off, it feels neutral and gives me no wrist or arm issues so I really need to look into why it is and where exactly my arms sit.
I am curious why is it that I get very uncomfortable with levers level, and wonder if it has to do with lever reach. I run my brakes very close to the bar (with XS sized hands), and actually pull on the lever with my middle phalanx. That gives me a mechanical advantage for pulling the lever while also allowing other fingers to wrap around the grip tighter. To demonstrate the difference, it's about grip strength with an index finger extended vs. only lightly extended - the middle finger grips much stronger with index finger being closer. It means I need a brake that consistently works close to the bar and never pulls too far, but doing this has helped me solve arm pump.
I do see that flat levers work for others, even people I ride with and they shake their heads at my setup. But it works, I can keep up (with some of them..) and doing what they do I tried without success for years, so I stick with what works for me but am curious why..I think I have a relatively normal human-ish body
My personal opinion, based on my personal experience, is that the most comfortable lever angle depends on terrain, body position/riding style, and probably also individual strength/flexibility/proportions/etc.
As an example: I was on a long-ish cross-country ride on my cross-country hardtail last fall, with my brake levers set to an angle similar to what I use on my mid-travel trail bike. Same grips, comparable lever reach, etc. That style of XC ride often involves a lot of riding out of the saddle on flat or relatively mellow slopes, where I tend to be farther over the front of the bike than I would be riding steeper trails. I started experiencing hand/wrist pain a couple of hours into the ride, particularly when descending. Something instinctual told me to try angling my levers farther down. I did, and the pain almost immediately diminished. It seems that angle is more comfortable for the riding posture I adopt on that specific bike. I'm experimenting with lever angle on my trail bike, too, to see whether changing from my general baseline feels better or worse in any significant way.
tl;dr I personally don't believe there is a universal "best" brake lever angle, and what works very well in one set of circumstances may not work well at all for another.
I hauled a 30lb chainsaw on my shoulder for 3 years and hiked with a 40lb pack as a hotshot firefighter for 14 years. Used to be a competitive rower…the shoulders are the hard dog to deal with…advice for arm pump: go to the gym and use some yard tools. Dig a giant hole and fill it back it. Your settings and bar roll won’t matter after that homies.
Yes, going to the gym helps. As someone who has been going to the gym to lift up heavy things for a while now I can firmly say:
Bar roll and brake position absolutely matter.
Bio-mechanical efficiency is the name of the game during sustained moments of exertion.
With that, I'd be curious if anyone has tried improving their breathing during descents. I know I personally tend to have a problem of not breathing when I get into techy and challenging sections, and that overall tension causes arm fatigue for sure. It's been interesting listening to the breathing cadence of downhillers POV and how controlled they seem to be of their breath. Worth a shot a least.
Things that have helped me -
1. Riding throughout the winter - this might not be an option for everyone, but 2 years we had basically no snow in NJ during winter, and riding throughout really helped bikepark season.
2. Revgrips. The initial spend is quite high, but after that if you're just replacing the rubber part it's like any other grip.
I am very aware of my breathing while riding (I have severe asthma). My advice is to exhale as hard and as long as you can whenever you are getting into a stressfully situation. You are less likely to subconsciously hold your breath after an exhale.
Similar goes for catching your breath after sprints or during xc rides. Exhale forcefully and inhale deeply. This will help lower your HR faster also.
One other thing that helps me with my hands going numb is paying attention to your whole body position. Riding with a pack I catch myself lifting my shoulders and tensing my traps, that causes neck tension that causes issues down my arms.
Switching to a waist pack helped me immediately.
I agree with others who've discussed the benefits of powerful brakes, big rotors, and tall bars for fighting off arm pump. Ditto for hand exercises and changing brake lever position, which are free.
Knowledge is another thing that helps with arm pump that can’t be purchased. Good suspension settings, body position, and riding technique can take a rider with stiff arms and horrible claw hands to a rider who's looking far ahead in sections, braking hard and then getting off the brakes, and riding with a relaxed upper body. But you can’t buy that. You can buy coaching, and a good coach will help with some of those things. But there are a lot of questionable MTB coaches, and even if you find a good one you can't bring them on every ride. The temptation to buy things to fix problems is something I struggle with constantly, but I try to remind myself that “new” doesn’t hold a candle to “adjusted correctly.”
I cannot overstate the importance of suspension setup for fighting off arm pump and hand pain. If your fork is packing down in the travel, you're screwed. All your weight is going to shift onto your hands with every impact and every braking event, and then you're going to need to brake for longer and longer each time because you're hunched over in a compromised body position, which means your hands are going to be pounded by braking even longer than you otherwise would be. Unfortunately, most of the things I would adjust on a fork are counterintuitive, like increasing spring rate, adding compression damping, or speeding up rebound. Most riders would fight me if I tried to make their fork stiffer to help ease hand cramps.
And unfortunately, "faster" or "slower" are not quantities that can be communicated on a forum or in a book or video. Ditto for "firmer" or "softer." You have to have someone smarter than you who's physically there to push up and down on the fork. This sport pretty much requires older/wiser/faster/more talented friends to make it work. There are too many things to learn. The book would have to be be 4000 pages. I say that as someone who's smarter than they once were, not smart enough, and was dumb for a long time.
You may or may not believe this, but I cured my arm pump by riding gloveless. I found out on accident and left them in the shuttle truck. Best part is it didn't cost me a dime and even saves me money on buying new gloves. I'm sure it's not for everyone and might not even work for everyone, but you don't know until you try and it's literally free.
Why do you think that is? Have you tested going back to gloves or using different gloves?
Post a reply to: Arm pump/hand pain solutions thread