On the Downtime post-race show they mentioned the KODS (Keep Our Device Secret) on Amaury's bike and were speculating that it was an electronically controlled position adjuster for the idler.
On the Downtime post-race show they mentioned the KODS (Keep Our Device Secret) on Amaury's bike and were speculating that it was an electronically controlled position...
On the Downtime post-race show they mentioned the KODS (Keep Our Device Secret) on Amaury's bike and were speculating that it was an electronically controlled position adjuster for the idler.
Pretty wild if that's what it is...
I also saw on an early practice clip from him that extra „tube“ (like a Vorsprung Secus but bigger) on the top right of the stanchion.
I think these were mentioned before to be some sort of anti-vibration device found in MX too? Has anybody anymore info on that?
This will be the season of haves/have-nots with electronic suspension. By the 2025 season anyone running Rockshox will be able to access it (buy it aftermarket...
This will be the season of haves/have-nots with electronic suspension. By the 2025 season anyone running Rockshox will be able to access it (buy it aftermarket even). Rockshox product is basically ready for sale now. ... And Fox will probably catch up enough that most of their world cup athletes will be on it next season. Ohlin's athletes might be up shit creek though as they've moving much slower.
The electronic lockout/firm up definitely made a difference on tracks like Fort William where there is a lot of out of the saddle sprinting. Locking a shock out (or even putting it in trail mode) on a 140mm bike makes a difference in a sprint. Let alone a 200mm bike with coil shock! It is entirely possible that those with lock-out/firm up were able to make 2-3 seconds (easily more) of time up because of it on a pedally track like Fort William. I believe everyone in mens elite finals with electronic suspension lockout/firm up was on the podium--I do not think that was a coincidence. Yes, they are all top dogs already, but add 3 seconds to everyone with electronic suspension's times and the results still look like a normal world cup, but all the electronic guys are not all on the podium/dominating so hard.
AFAIK rocksox said they have no plans on selling the DH version of FA after market. if that stays the case there will be a huge...
AFAIK rocksox said they have no plans on selling the DH version of FA after market. if that stays the case there will be a huge disadavantage. and if it‘s gonna be available i see forks exceeding 3k and shox for 2,5k or more. so it‘s gonna be even harder for people who are on a budget.
Props to Dakotah for getting up there without the electronics!
From what I recall, Flight Attendant is only the upper portion of a normal charger damper that gets replaced. I wonder how difficult it would be to rig up if riders outside of the Blackbox umbrella wanted to give it a try. At the same time, it'll be interesting to see if the systems stay on for the entire season or get swapped out on steeper tracks.
I also saw on an early practice clip from him that extra „tube“ (like a Vorsprung Secus but bigger) on the top right of the stanchion. ...
I also saw on an early practice clip from him that extra „tube“ (like a Vorsprung Secus but bigger) on the top right of the stanchion.
I think these were mentioned before to be some sort of anti-vibration device found in MX too? Has anybody anymore info on that?
Is there a rule that they can not have any two way GPS communication on the bikes? I dont feel like we are super far off...
Is there a rule that they can not have any two way GPS communication on the bikes? I dont feel like we are super far off from them being able to collect enough data that they can have the suspension settings change according to GPS position and get rid of the buttons all together.
They should probably have a rule that states that, they have a similar rule in Supercross GPS usage is allowed but nothing is allowed to be two way communicated so its purely data acquisition.
You dont want it to be GPS-based
GPS is easy to interfere with by a third party e.g. changing the location from steepest parts of ft bill to boardwalks
my bet it can be something similar to time tracking chips and gates where you can actually control the medium and ensure it is coming from trusted sources
AFAIK rocksox said they have no plans on selling the DH version of FA after market. if that stays the case there will be a huge...
AFAIK rocksox said they have no plans on selling the DH version of FA after market. if that stays the case there will be a huge disadavantage. and if it‘s gonna be available i see forks exceeding 3k and shox for 2,5k or more. so it‘s gonna be even harder for people who are on a budget.
and that‘s bad how? you can‘t show up on a formula 1 event in a clapped out gold gti and expect to be allowed to race either.
Looks like the bleeder valves changed to skirt the fox lawsuit. Looking like a rotational knob versus depressing the valve on current models?
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled thumbscrew with a 4mm hex hole that simply goes into the same threads. Crack it a turn or so and you can hear it equalise.
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled...
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled thumbscrew with a 4mm hex hole that simply goes into the same threads. Crack it a turn or so and you can hear it equalise.
Looks like the bleeder valves changed to skirt the fox lawsuit. Looking like a rotational knob versus depressing the valve on current models?
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
You can blame the patent system for that.
Specialized bought the Horst Link in the US, called it FSR and locked down tight for years. Nothing they actually did themselves but have a canny ability to spend money well. Shame they weren’t so wise ordering bikes.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring...
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring...
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no...
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
Oil can still come out of the twist bleeders, very little but I’ve found it’s more depending on how you transport the bike and then hit the bleeders, vertical bike rack, upside down vs horizontal rack
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research...
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
"Minimising oil loss" sounds a lot better than "changed it because they will sue our asses off".
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first...
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
Rockshox can sue you for putting sag markings on your stanchions. It goes both ways.
At the release of the latest drivetrain, TRP reps mentioned how many patents for the derailleur they had to get around to design theirs. Was it somewhere in the 150-200 range?
Patents are a good/bad thing depending on perspective eh. It sure does turn into a gong-show sometimes though.
Drivetrain have tons of patent from shimano and sram that make new player have a hard time circulating around not just for the derailleur and clutch but also cassette (shift ramp and such) and shifter.
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Of it is just an electronic lockout actuated by the rider i dont see any problem lockout systems are nothing new.
but everything else like an automatic lockout or maybe even an GPS activated lockout is to much in my opinion.
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment...
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching weird turns, off-camber lines, sloppy carnage and maximum creativity. I'm fine with one track like Ft. Bill per year, variety is good. I just hope they keep it weird for a bunch of other races.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be...
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be...
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out...
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
Chris Hall on the Downtime called it "electrickery" which I thought was an awesome term for it...
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed...
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed compression with a motor. Potentially high speed compression too.
In a race where 1.5-3 seconds over a 3-4 minute course is the difference between first and third and third and seventh this is a huge advantage.
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if you actually look at the sector times you'd realise that the electric bikes actually didn't even win the flat sections.
Benoit Coulange was fastest in both split 4 and 5, Loic was 3rd and 10th.
I more meant that they need to implement the technology for such marginal gains. The times are so tight as a lot of tracks are pretty one line and straight.
The debating and hypothesizing is pretty interesting, id only caution of broad statements of "fact" when in reality we dont actually "know" anything other than what we have seen and been told.
we dont know that Loic has anything going on, other than a couple buttons, and some blinky lights. Could all be snake oil, or placebo buttons, or could be enough computing power to run a space program. As noted by @SteveClimber there might not be much correlation between the flatter sections, and the ability to lock out suspension. Or maybe Loic didnt lock it out, or maybe it didnt work, or.....?
Same with the RS stuff, we only "know" what we have been told, the rest is rumour. I have heard good things about the FA on some trail/enduro bikes, but I havent tried it personally.
it is all very fascinating, and the level of R&D, and investment made by some teams appears to be pretty substantial
On the Downtime post-race show they mentioned the KODS (Keep Our Device Secret) on Amaury's bike and were speculating that it was an electronically controlled position adjuster for the idler.
Pretty wild if that's what it is...
I also saw on an early practice clip from him that extra „tube“ (like a Vorsprung Secus but bigger) on the top right of the stanchion.
I think these were mentioned before to be some sort of anti-vibration device found in MX too? Has anybody anymore info on that?
Props to Dakotah for getting up there without the electronics!
From what I recall, Flight Attendant is only the upper portion of a normal charger damper that gets replaced. I wonder how difficult it would be to rig up if riders outside of the Blackbox umbrella wanted to give it a try. At the same time, it'll be interesting to see if the systems stay on for the entire season or get swapped out on steeper tracks.
Here's the moto version that I'm aware of:
https://countershox.com/
You dont want it to be GPS-based
GPS is easy to interfere with by a third party e.g. changing the location from steepest parts of ft bill to boardwalks
my bet it can be something similar to time tracking chips and gates where you can actually control the medium and ensure it is coming from trusted sources
and that‘s bad how? you can‘t show up on a formula 1 event in a clapped out gold gti and expect to be allowed to race either.
Already seen these out in the wild on some current Zebs and a 38mm Boxxer. Definitely to get around whoever holds the patent. It's a knurled thumbscrew with a 4mm hex hole that simply goes into the same threads. Crack it a turn or so and you can hear it equalise.
The Lyrik I got recently has the knurled screws instead of the buttons that my 2 Zebs from last year had. When I did some research, I found some YouTube video saying that it was a running change that supposedly was better at minimizing the amount of oil that can burp out during the process. I haven't gone up to any high elevations with the new style valves to try it yet, but the old push button ones did burp out a noticeable of oil.
Here they are on my new Range:
That's nuts if Fox can sue for that. Bleeders have been around in moto for years. I don't know who did it on mtb forks first, but it wasn't Fox; my ~2014 X-Fusion RV1 had them.
I believe Manitou did it first on the Dorado but they were also set screws on the top caps. The first 40 with an air spring in 2013 was the first fork I remember seeing them on with a button-style valve. It's still crazy that they can sue for something like that. Luckily, the new twist to open valves seem to work a lot faster and not leak oil over time.
You can blame the patent system for that.
Specialized bought the Horst Link in the US, called it FSR and locked down tight for years. Nothing they actually did themselves but have a canny ability to spend money well. Shame they weren’t so wise ordering bikes.
Wonder if the twist bleeders will be backwards compatible? Even though they're a play to get around the Fox patent, I like the simplicity and no oil burping.
Oil can still come out of the twist bleeders, very little but I’ve found it’s more depending on how you transport the bike and then hit the bleeders, vertical bike rack, upside down vs horizontal rack
To play devils advocate a little. Is the use of electronic lockouts and moving idlers a slight reflection on mediocrity of some of the tracks where such equipment is needed and clearly beneficial. Should this type of stuff be regulated. Something a little weird about using electronic stuff in dh racing.
"Minimising oil loss" sounds a lot better than "changed it because they will sue our asses off".
Sounds like spin to me.
Why would a track with very different characters in different parts of it be mediocre?
Rockshox can sue you for putting sag markings on your stanchions. It goes both ways.
At the release of the latest drivetrain, TRP reps mentioned how many patents for the derailleur they had to get around to design theirs. Was it somewhere in the 150-200 range?
Patents are a good/bad thing depending on perspective eh. It sure does turn into a gong-show sometimes though.
Drivetrain have tons of patent from shimano and sram that make new player have a hard time circulating around not just for the derailleur and clutch but also cassette (shift ramp and such) and shifter.
Of it is just an electronic lockout actuated by the rider i dont see any problem lockout systems are nothing new.
but everything else like an automatic lockout or maybe even an GPS activated lockout is to much in my opinion.
Mediocre as in the need to turn a dh bike into a hardtail because it's so flat.
Fort William is flat? Wonder why they aren’t using trail bikes instead.
I find high-speed tracks less interesting to watch. Just my opinion. It's harder to notice the details that set the best runs apart. I like watching weird turns, off-camber lines, sloppy carnage and maximum creativity. I'm fine with one track like Ft. Bill per year, variety is good. I just hope they keep it weird for a bunch of other races.
I'm not persuaded that lockouts make as big a difference as many think. Tire choice is far more influential.
Of course the top riders will be on the top technology by their sponsors. But I just think the correlation is the other way around- 4 of the top 5 riders were on electronic suspension because they are the top riders, its not making them meaningfully faster.
And don't forget the placebo effect. If you take 4 out of the top 10 riders and give them Mike's Secret Stuff they're gonna go out and destroy the Monstars... I mean, do well in the race.
Not saying the electronics didn't work at Fort William, just trying to stay realistic with a sample size of only n=6. I think this is Loic's fourth season* on Mike's Secret Stuff... I mean electronic suspension, and I don't think his win rate is so different from 2016-2020 vs. 2020-2024.
*I think his first race on the Ohlin's handlebar lockout was Lousa 2020 at the end of the season. He won day one, Greg won day two
Loic has at least 3 modes. It’s not as simple as a lock out.
Black box dh seems to be able to electronically control low speed compression with a motor. Potentially high speed compression too.
In a race where 1.5-3 seconds over a 3-4 minute course is the difference between first and third and third and seventh this is a huge advantage.
Chris Hall on the Downtime called it "electrickery" which I thought was an awesome term for it...
Loic won the race in sector 2 where he somehow gained 2 seconds over most people.
All this talk about flat courses and hard tails, if you actually look at the sector times you'd realise that the electric bikes actually didn't even win the flat sections.
Benoit Coulange was fastest in both split 4 and 5, Loic was 3rd and 10th.
I more meant that they need to implement the technology for such marginal gains. The times are so tight as a lot of tracks are pretty one line and straight.
The debating and hypothesizing is pretty interesting, id only caution of broad statements of "fact" when in reality we dont actually "know" anything other than what we have seen and been told.
we dont know that Loic has anything going on, other than a couple buttons, and some blinky lights. Could all be snake oil, or placebo buttons, or could be enough computing power to run a space program. As noted by @SteveClimber there might not be much correlation between the flatter sections, and the ability to lock out suspension. Or maybe Loic didnt lock it out, or maybe it didnt work, or.....?
Same with the RS stuff, we only "know" what we have been told, the rest is rumour. I have heard good things about the FA on some trail/enduro bikes, but I havent tried it personally.
it is all very fascinating, and the level of R&D, and investment made by some teams appears to be pretty substantial