MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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4586
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Location
SI
6/23/2022 7:58am
The link itself can stay the same for angular contact bearings, but yes, technically having the spacer there makes it pointless to have angular contact bearings.
1
6/23/2022 9:11am
Primoz wrote:
The link itself can stay the same for angular contact bearings, but yes, technically having the spacer there makes it pointless to have angular contact bearings.
They historically have not used spacers on links with angular contact bearings.
6/23/2022 1:16pm
I’d be prepared to see an influx of new or revamped “trail” bikes in the next year, or sooner. The Fuel EX, cannondale Habit/GT sensor,
6/23/2022 2:30pm
Hopefully sooner.
6/23/2022 4:21pm
gbcoke wrote:
You mean this ? Looks like the bike discussed earlier in this tread... New TQ motor with a 360wh battery and around 18.4 kg for a...
You mean this ? Looks like the bike discussed earlier in this tread...
New TQ motor with a 360wh battery and around 18.4 kg for a high spec build
styriabeef wrote:
Do we think this is the same bike? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/13/12601/s1200_Screenshot_20220613_210836.jpg[/img]
Do we think this is the same bike?
Speaking of new trail bikes. Has it been decided that the white bike is a Trek? The yellow trek looks like a darn Sensor!
peecee
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Location
Brisbane AU
Fantasy
6/23/2022 5:13pm
Did Nicolai produce the chainstay on the new prototype demo





15
6/23/2022 7:21pm
gbcoke wrote:
You mean this ? Looks like the bike discussed earlier in this tread... New TQ motor with a 360wh battery and around 18.4 kg for a...
You mean this ? Looks like the bike discussed earlier in this tread...
New TQ motor with a 360wh battery and around 18.4 kg for a high spec build
styriabeef wrote:
Do we think this is the same bike? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/13/12601/s1200_Screenshot_20220613_210836.jpg[/img]
Do we think this is the same bike?
Speaking of new trail bikes. Has it been decided that the white bike is a Trek? The yellow trek looks like a darn Sensor!
It’s apparently a new lightweight E-MTB that will compete with the specialized Turbo-Levo SL.
1
nollak
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Location
DE
6/23/2022 11:16pm
nollak wrote:
Well as they said it's not a revolution. What I find interesting is the size specific carbon layup which does make sense as the XL from...
Well as they said it's not a revolution.

What I find interesting is the size specific carbon layup which does make sense as the XL from my buddy cracked a year ago and he still hasn't gotten a replacement frame. Seems like he get's a v3 now.

Another interesting part is the use of angular contact bearings in the lower link again. My v2 Bronson came with those and I think the second year of the v2 they switched to grooved ball bearings with a shell in between. At least from the 3D they show the shell seems missing. I might be wrong on this though.
I'm intereseted why they use those again. I had mine disintegrate 2 times and was much happier with the grooved ball bearings and shell in between.
I don't think they actually switched to angular contacts. Under their technical documentation in the bike archive they list them as 6900-1zr. Layout of the link...
I don't think they actually switched to angular contacts. Under their technical documentation in the bike archive they list them as 6900-1zr. Layout of the link is identical to those that have non-angular bearings. Bearing spacer in the middle is there, which you don't use with angular contacts. It would appear there's some information on the main page for the bike that's wrong. Here's their exploded view of the lower link:
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/files/styles/scb_natural_960_auto/pub…

What I wonder is why the downsized the bearings.
Ah nice find! I did not find that pdf in the archive and it was more or less a thought that they used angular again.

But the downsizing is interesting!
Eoin
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374
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FR
Fantasy
6/24/2022 2:45am
Do we have any info on the Torque output of that TQ motor, (60Nm would be sweet, but it looks tiny!). Similarly do we have any pricing info on bikes equiped with it?
6/24/2022 4:21am
peecee wrote:
Did Nicolai produce the chainstay on the new prototype demo [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/23/12643/s1200_s780_mosaico_proto_specialized_opti.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/23/12642/s1200_IMG_1609.jpg[/img]
Did Nicolai produce the chainstay on the new prototype demo





That would make the first Spé to be sexy in many many years ! I miss the real Nicolai bikes, M-Pire, Lambda, Nucleus and so on those we so sexy !
1
Big Bird
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Location
Oceano, CA US
6/24/2022 8:11am
That would make the first Spé to be sexy in many many years ! I miss the real Nicolai bikes, M-Pire, Lambda, Nucleus and so on...
That would make the first Spé to be sexy in many many years ! I miss the real Nicolai bikes, M-Pire, Lambda, Nucleus and so on those we so sexy !
But so many of them rode like complete garbage. I knew the Nicolai guys through a 180 Magazine. At Sea Otter one year their dude was talking to a woman about their new high pivot design and I had a quick test ride. He asked me how I liked it in front of her and when I gave my honest opinion, I've never had someone look at me with such hatred.
6
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gibbon
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463
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wales GB
6/24/2022 9:50am Edited Date/Time 6/24/2022 9:52am
I've never had someone look at me with such hatred.

Just buy an Ellsworth E-bike when they come out.
12
Noeserd
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TR
6/26/2022 1:01pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2022 1:03pm
Since this thread is also about innovation i want to ask a question,

Why bikes in general didn't adopted the o-ring x-ring chains like motorcycles?

does cons outweighs the benefits?
lewzz10
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GB
6/26/2022 1:07pm
Noeserd wrote:
Since this thread is also about innovation i want to ask a question, Why bikes in general didn't adopted the o-ring x-ring chains like motorcycles? does...
Since this thread is also about innovation i want to ask a question,

Why bikes in general didn't adopted the o-ring x-ring chains like motorcycles?

does cons outweighs the benefits?
The extra drag of an o-ring chain is noticeable on a 450 motocross bike, would end the idler drag debate I suppose.
10
gibbon
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wales GB
6/26/2022 1:18pm
You need some lateral articulation for gears to work. It's the only drive system that I know of that is designed with mis-alignment as standard!!
I hot wax the chains on all my bikes and when they are freshly done the wax fills the gaps between the outer and inner plates so they are almost rigid. And they change gear like a bag of crap until they are run in for a while.
With a good cleaning/lubing regime modern chains will last 3-4k km's.....cassettes less so ;op
1
Primoz
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SI
6/26/2022 1:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2022 1:42pm
I've swapped out (XX1/X01) chains roughly once a year, I'm on my 3rd chain I think and still on the original X01 cassette. So roughly 300k vertical meters and I think around 5 to 6k km?
2
gibbon
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wales GB
6/26/2022 2:44pm
All the 12sp stuff seems very particular to mis-matched wear. The old change at 0.75% wear does'nt seem to work (especially on the most used ratios, and e-bikes kill the smallest sprockets disproportionally quickly).
I run 2 chains concurrently-whilst one is off being cleaned/re-waxed, I've got a freshly prepared one to go straight on.
I'm still on 11sp as you can actually buy it, and anecdotally it seems more robust.
YMMV
1
mixmastamikal
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85
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Location
Salt Lake City, UT US
6/26/2022 3:39pm
Noeserd wrote:
Since this thread is also about innovation i want to ask a question, Why bikes in general didn't adopted the o-ring x-ring chains like motorcycles? does...
Since this thread is also about innovation i want to ask a question,

Why bikes in general didn't adopted the o-ring x-ring chains like motorcycles?

does cons outweighs the benefits?
lewzz10 wrote:
The extra drag of an o-ring chain is noticeable on a 450 motocross bike, would end the idler drag debate I suppose.
This. On those Sur Ron electric Moto's that are becoming popular the easiest power upgrade is to put a non o-ring chain on.
1
Primoz
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SI
6/26/2022 9:46pm
gibbon wrote:
All the 12sp stuff seems very particular to mis-matched wear. The old change at 0.75% wear does'nt seem to work (especially on the most used ratios...
All the 12sp stuff seems very particular to mis-matched wear. The old change at 0.75% wear does'nt seem to work (especially on the most used ratios, and e-bikes kill the smallest sprockets disproportionally quickly).
I run 2 chains concurrently-whilst one is off being cleaned/re-waxed, I've got a freshly prepared one to go straight on.
I'm still on 11sp as you can actually buy it, and anecdotally it seems more robust.
YMMV
Zero Friction Cycling showed X01 Eagle chain durability is off the charts compared to other stuff. The mileage I described above was achieved by swapping chains at 0,5 %, though Eagle chains come "pre stretched" to 0,25 % anyway (I'm guessing there's some more clearance in the rollers that the measuring tool incorrectly measures as wear due to the way the measurement is made).

Considering I'm on the original aluminium front ring and considering the cassette has two teeth missing on the 50t, this is the last chain on it and it's a to the death situation. As long as it works, it works.
1
TimBud
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GB
6/26/2022 10:08pm Edited Date/Time 6/27/2022 9:53am
Yeah, what Primoz said.
All the 12spd chains are recommended to change at 0.5. At 0.75 it's often the cassette too. At least with Shimano the highest few are separate so you can swap them out.

Regarding the disproportionate wear on eeb high gears, at my shop we find that it's just down to rider education and encouraging them to stop using the assistance levels as a gear change... you still have to change gears at the rear
1
Jakub_G
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8/7/2019
Location
SK
6/27/2022 3:15am
gibbon wrote:
You need some lateral articulation for gears to work. It's the only drive system that I know of that is designed with mis-alignment as standard!! I...
You need some lateral articulation for gears to work. It's the only drive system that I know of that is designed with mis-alignment as standard!!
I hot wax the chains on all my bikes and when they are freshly done the wax fills the gaps between the outer and inner plates so they are almost rigid. And they change gear like a bag of crap until they are run in for a while.
With a good cleaning/lubing regime modern chains will last 3-4k km's.....cassettes less so ;op
With good treatment "modern" chains should last easily 10k +
1
Jakub_G
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355
Joined
8/7/2019
Location
SK
6/27/2022 3:21am
gibbon wrote:
All the 12sp stuff seems very particular to mis-matched wear. The old change at 0.75% wear does'nt seem to work (especially on the most used ratios...
All the 12sp stuff seems very particular to mis-matched wear. The old change at 0.75% wear does'nt seem to work (especially on the most used ratios, and e-bikes kill the smallest sprockets disproportionally quickly).
I run 2 chains concurrently-whilst one is off being cleaned/re-waxed, I've got a freshly prepared one to go straight on.
I'm still on 11sp as you can actually buy it, and anecdotally it seems more robust.
YMMV
Primoz wrote:
Zero Friction Cycling showed X01 Eagle chain durability is off the charts compared to other stuff. The mileage I described above was achieved by swapping chains...
Zero Friction Cycling showed X01 Eagle chain durability is off the charts compared to other stuff. The mileage I described above was achieved by swapping chains at 0,5 %, though Eagle chains come "pre stretched" to 0,25 % anyway (I'm guessing there's some more clearance in the rollers that the measuring tool incorrectly measures as wear due to the way the measurement is made).

Considering I'm on the original aluminium front ring and considering the cassette has two teeth missing on the 50t, this is the last chain on it and it's a to the death situation. As long as it works, it works.
That 0.25 wear is typical for high end Shimano chains, as far as I remember SRAM is tight from factory, which makes is significantly slower. And if we are talking about zerofrictioncycling, he said ybn is the chain to beat overall, better than xo1/xx1 all things considered.
sspomer
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Boise, ID US
Fantasy
6/27/2022 8:32am Edited Date/Time 6/27/2022 8:34am
press release that seems suited to the tech/engineering community here
----------------------------
www.radiate.ch - Radiate Engineering and Design AG from Zurich establishes the "Bike Division", a service unit specialized in holistic product development of bicycles and components. The service unit, which is specifically geared to the needs of the bicycle industry, brings together all the necessary expertise, resources and services so that both complete bicycles "from scratch" and individual components can be developed, optimized, tested and prepared for industrialization. Experience from aerospace and F1 racing is incorporated into the offering and enables modern and efficient engineering and design.

The bicycle industry is a fast-growing and demanding environment with constant new requirements for product innovation. Manufacturers and brands need to bring first-class products to the market in order to grow and differentiate - but there is little time for R&D and product development, and above all, this is often not considered holistically.

The solution is "Holistic Bicycle Development" - the idea behind this is to use simulation-driven development methods to take a holistic view of all challenges from the start, including function, design, materials, manufacturing processes and costs.

Ideation, Functional and Structural Engineering, Appearance and User-Centered Design, Testing & Validation as well as efficient Industrialization and Quality Assurance.

By researching new materials and processes and applying modern technologies such as AI/ML engineering, Radiate is professionalizing bike engineering and thus exploiting all opportunities to efficiently develop innovative products.

An interdisciplinary team enables a broad spectrum.

The "Bike Division" team consists of experienced specialists and emerging talents with backgrounds in various disciplines: Experts in composite lightweight construction from aerospace, fluid engineers from F1 racing, and renowned industrial designers for two-wheel design. The interdisciplinary team makes it possible to develop complete bikes or components of a wide spectrum: from an aerodynamic wheelset to a complex S-pedelec to a lightweight composite handlebar.

Jonas Schmid takes over the lead role.

The new service unit is led by Jonas Schmid, who has been involved with Radiate Engineering & Design as a partner since 2015. A Master of Science ETH in Mechanical Engineering, he brings years of expertise in product design and structural simulation. "We bring to this unit a high level of know-how, technology and experience from a variety of projects in different fields. Together with our customers, we share a passion for bikes and have helped design and develop some of the most innovative bike components in the world," said Jonas Schmid, who will take on the role of Director for the "Bike Division". Timothy Habermacher, CEO of Radiate Engineering & Design adds: "By combining our activities in the new structure, we are even better positioned to serve the needs of our customers in the bicycle industry. Our goal is to establish ourselves as one of the top addresses for engineering and product development in this market."






1
Primoz
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Location
SI
6/27/2022 9:28am
So a new engineering service firm? Or, to be exact, an existing company that's also focusing on bikes now?

@Jakub_G a brand spanking new GX chain: https://i.imgur.com/1SBeZec.png
sspomer
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Boise, ID US
Fantasy
6/27/2022 9:59am
Primoz wrote:
So a new engineering service firm? Or, to be exact, an existing company that's also focusing on bikes now? @Jakub_G a brand spanking new GX chain...
So a new engineering service firm? Or, to be exact, an existing company that's also focusing on bikes now?

@Jakub_G a brand spanking new GX chain: https://i.imgur.com/1SBeZec.png
says pretty clearly that it's an existing firm that now has a "bike division"
8
6/27/2022 12:09pm
" 'holistic' product development of bicycles and components"
Ohh Lord, gag me with a spoon already
6
kcy4130
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MT US
6/27/2022 12:20pm
Gag indeed. That engineering firm sure seems to have a marketing background.
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TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
Fantasy
6/27/2022 12:50pm Edited Date/Time 6/27/2022 4:15pm
I appreciate the ability of corporate speak to use so many words and still be so vague and meaningless: "By combining our activities in the new structure, we are even better positioned to serve the needs of our customers in the bicycle industry."

Translation: "We gave Jonas his own desk in the office, a new title, and bumped his pay 20% so he can focus on bikes instead of doing bikes and lawnmowers."

27
jonkranked
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Location
Norristown, PA US
6/27/2022 1:00pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:
I appreciate the ability of corporate speak to use so many words and still be so vague and meaningless: "By combining our activities in the new...
I appreciate the ability of corporate speak to use so many words and still be so vague and meaningless: "By combining our activities in the new structure, we are even better positioned to serve the needs of our customers in the bicycle industry."

Translation: "We gave Jonas his own desk in the office, a new title, and bumped his pay 20% so he can focus on bikes instead of doing bikes and lawnmowers."

:shareholders nod with approval:
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