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6/18/2022 10:54 PM

spec would have that gear in house I'd imagine.

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6/18/2022 11:21 PM

noideamtber wrote:

I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? ...more

That would be like North Korea helping the USA develop ballistic missiles sideways

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6/19/2022 12:15 AM

Mr.Nally wrote:

That would be like North Korea helping the USA develop ballistic missiles sideways

Kinda, This style of Printing is reasonably high tech and not alot of it is even used and we've never seen it before in MTB.
I honestly cant see spesh forking out for this kinda tech just for prototyping.

Guess we all have to wait an see.

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6/19/2022 12:30 AM

Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…

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6/19/2022 1:13 AM

RE prototyping, it's hit or miss if they have it internally. It's more likely they have a CNC or two to facilitate that, for prototypes it's as good or even better. If you need something printed, you go external as it doesn't make sense to have a printer in house, if it's not used more or less 24/7 - there's maintenance, buying the materials and then there's personnel you need to run the machine, who needs to be up to date with new developments, etc.

On the other hand there are loads of companies around the world offering 3D printing of metal parts as a service. If nothing else you have Shapeways. And there are a few companies doing that just in Slovenia, let alone the tech company rich that is the Bay area.

As for what the Athertons are doing, the only 'interesting' part of it is that they are doing it on a production level. Otherwise making parts and gluing them together isn't a particularly novel thing in the cycling industry. I remember Rock Shox did that years ago with proto lowers (machined parts glued together), brazing of frames is same, but different (the braze acts like a glue kinda), there's Faction in Canada ( https://enduro-mtb.com/en/faction-bike-studio-visit/ ), etc.

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6/19/2022 1:23 AM

hitar_potar wrote:

Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…

High pivot isnt the Magic to a DH bike. Look at all the enduro bikes with HP yet where are they?

The Results from HP actually more come from less pedal kick and the suspension working "free'er" than the rearward axle. many have reported the Rear axle path can feel slower due to the energy of making the rear wheel actually go backwards instead of vertical or forward...
Its kinda like the feeling of 29er vs 27.5 as mullet My time spent on the GT and cannondale HP bikes felt exactly like that, super stable but due to fact of the extending wheelbase of a rearward axle... Every big hit felt like it slowed the bike down.

IMO - i think you gain more from the idler than the HP.

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6/19/2022 1:34 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/19/2022 1:39 AM

Re the Demo,

Photo
This is where the tubes are going roughly, so there has to be a chonker BB part that also deals with mounting the lower pivot and likely the linkage. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the chonker BB part begins right in (or even above?) the cover in order to mount the shock as well. The shock looks to be fairly parallel to the down tube given another pic showing the bridge and the dials of the Ohlins.

As far as the linkage is concerned... If the bottom pivot that we can see on the chainstay was the main pivot,t he IC would be INSANELY low (starts off behind the bike even). Might make it a low chain feedback bike though. Driving the shock would be easy. Given the picture from the other side with Finn riding the bike, it would also close the chainstay towards the chainring, maybe making packaging a bit cumbersome in some cases (given what it looks like from the other side).
Photo

Then there's this, a bit more conventional IC wise (and/or pivot height and all):
Photo

Driving the shock would require some sort of a flip-flop link making a pull into a push. Don't really see Specialized doing that, though it is a prototype.

There is the option of a 6-bar link a la DWLink6 (Athertons)...

Of course, the picture is at an angle, so this line drawing is nothing but internet banter.

It is interesting to see a 3D printed, lugged prototype under the WC riders, as they usually get a fairly refined product under them. In that regard this might be a rough mule to try out some suspension layout and characteristics concepts and it might come to nothing at the end of the day as far as new products go.

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6/19/2022 4:43 AM

hitar_potar wrote:

Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…

noideamtber wrote:

High pivot isnt the Magic to a DH bike. Look at all the enduro bikes with HP yet where are they?

The Results from HP actually ...more

Uhm, i don’t understand you. You state HP isn’t the magic for dh-bikes and then you ask me what it does for enduro-bikes. As far as i remember, someone explained why HP works better nowadays and not so much in the past with the steep, short, tall 26er - because of the bigger wheels today. As far as race results - you can see for yourself, in the past several years the most successful bikes have been HP. As far as enduro - not so much. But racers and regular weekend warriors are way too different. While a racer has the stamina to ride a stiffer bike in order to loose less momentum on the chunky stuff, it’s not the same for us regular folks - i’ll give an example with me: years ago on a pretty long and fast race track i tried running stiffer suspension. Although the bike lost noticeably less momentum, i got a lot more tired because of the bigger hits i felt with my body, especially didn’t like the rear where i could feel a lot of the chunky stuff with my feet. In several laps and i was done with this setup - got it way softer, especially with the rear (long live the air shocks). Difference was night and day, it did get a little more hung-up on the bigger rocks, but my feet were waaaay calmer and therefore stronger, i could push harder and generally felt more comfortable. This on a non HP-bike. Now with HPs, people riding them and sharing experience, state something similar, that it does level the chunky stuff, that you don’t feel all the terrain too much with your feet. For some, this is bad. For others like me and a lot of people around me this is good. And i’d be willing to try it out, even on an enduro bike (although i don’t see myself going for something lighter and shorter travel than a Norco Range, for example. smile

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6/19/2022 7:43 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/19/2022 9:04 AM

As you mentioned, the wheels are bigger today and BBs lower. That means the IC, to get a decent antisquat and pedal kickback figure, needs to be relatively lower today compared to the rear axle height than with 26" wheels as a double whammy - because of the lower BBs by itself and because of the larger wheels by themselves. That means a less rearward axle path on modern bikes compared to 26" bikes.

A high pivot works just as well on a high pivot bike, case in point, Lahar, Zerode G1, probably some other bikes as well. The thing is it's not as needed as it is on a 29er maybe.

Another factor might be the tracks in DH of today vs. the tracks 10 to 20 years ago - they are much faster today and carrying speed is more important than it ever was.

With the rearward axle path, the rear wheel moves 'away' from the impact and thus robs the rider of less energy, slowing her/him down less. The wheelbase moving under the rider is likely a negative, but looks like a high pivot does bring positives for DH.

As to why there aren't enduro bikes with high pivots, at least not as many, I'd say it's a combination of increased drag (noticeable or not, it almost doubles, it's simple physics) and looking at what Jack Moir is doing, with how small a frame he's running, the balls to the wall speed capability a higher pivot bike gives might not be as beneficial as it is with a DH bike. At least that's how I see it.

Speaking of Moir:


Boy does he look funny on that small of a bike. But it works for him.
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6/19/2022 2:03 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/19/2022 2:06 PM

Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

https://www.instagram.com/tv/Ce-HblYB91x/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=


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6/19/2022 2:25 PM

Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals.
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6/19/2022 2:44 PM

gibbon wrote: Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals. ...more

Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup wink

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6/19/2022 2:53 PM

I think he’s grossly exaggerating pedal kick in both directions. Specifically the forward part though.

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6/19/2022 5:09 PM

Martin_Prophet wrote:

More of the new Demo
Photo
Photo

Maybe Specialized are going down the Ancillotti route

Photo

Photo

Photo

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6/19/2022 6:47 PM
Edited Date/Time: 6/19/2022 6:48 PM

Martin_Prophet wrote:

More of the new Demo
Photo
Photo

loving the ktm style (cast/printed) chainstay 😻👌

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6/19/2022 9:54 PM

bismojo wrote:

loving the ktm style (cast/printed) chainstay

I'd be surprised if that wasn't simply milled

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6/20/2022 7:33 AM

noideamtber wrote:

I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? ...more

boozed wrote:

This is pure speculation but Specialized strikes me as the kind of company that could afford to have its own prototyping ...more

For a couple of years, Specialized has outsourced the suspension development to a German company called Denk Engineering. Denk came up with the suspension platform of the current Enduro, Demo and Kenevo SL.

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6/20/2022 8:09 AM
Edited Date/Time: 6/20/2022 8:12 AM

noideamtber wrote:

I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? ...more

boozed wrote:

This is pure speculation but Specialized strikes me as the kind of company that could afford to have its own prototyping ...more

FullSend wrote:

For a couple of years, Specialized has outsourced the suspension development to a German company called Denk Engineering. Denk ...more

Peter Denk was also responsible for the wild Scott designs of the late 90s and early 00s. He's quite a wild engineer.

I still dream of owning an Intoxica.

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6/20/2022 8:46 AM

Are we sure about Denk and the Enduro/Demo/Kenevo layout? He's fairly well known to be Mr. Single Pivot. Since he started working with Specialized, the Stumpjumper and Epic went single pivot (understandable for the Epic for weight reasons, but still), he was with Cannondale before that where he also introduced the pull shock and before that he worked with Scott, that also used single pivots and often pullshocks. Soon after the Denk collaboration (and after the FSR patent expired) Scott went all in on the Horst link...

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6/20/2022 9:31 AM

gibbon wrote: Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals. ...more
noideamtber wrote:

Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup wink

i would like to hear more about why you feel this way. any negatives with this setup?

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6/20/2022 9:50 AM

Bike Company hires Peter Denk. Denk designs proprietory pullshock suspension. Pullshock still doesn't work well and noone will service. Denk is excused from their services? Something like this?

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6/20/2022 1:01 PM

gibbon wrote: Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals. ...more
noideamtber wrote:

Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup wink

w4s wrote:

i would like to hear more about why you feel this way. any negatives with this setup?

'Freehub' engagement.

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6/20/2022 1:55 PM

Schwalbe "Dirt Reynolds" will be released pretty soon I guess, a german dealer already sells a 29x2.4 SuperTrail Soft one on ebay:
Photo
Photo

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/neu-schwalbe-dirt-reynolds-evolution-29x2-4-reifen-haendler/1863433040-217-18689

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6/20/2022 2:00 PM

Looks identical to big betty

Photo

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6/20/2022 2:37 PM

Noeserd wrote:

Looks identical to big betty

Photo

you are right, should have checked that before

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6/20/2022 6:55 PM

nskerb wrote:

I think he’s grossly exaggerating pedal kick in both directions. Specifically the forward part though.

I'm about to ditch GX AXS because it essentially has no clutch and my chain flaps around like crazy and ive never had my feet bucked off the pedals so much. Something like this could maybe fix that i guess, but ill be switching back to the XT derailleur the bike came with.

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6/20/2022 8:00 PM

nskerb wrote:

I think he’s grossly exaggerating pedal kick in both directions. Specifically the forward part though.

westrm wrote:

I'm about to ditch GX AXS because it essentially has no clutch and my chain flaps around like crazy and ive never had my feet ...more

So I’m not going crazy and this is actually a thing with gx axs? I know Shimano always had firmer clutches but this gx axs clutch seems really light compared to other sram derailleurs

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6/21/2022 4:02 AM

therock911 wrote:

So I’m not going crazy and this is actually a thing with gx axs? I know Shimano always had firmer clutches but this gx axs ...more

Yes, there is tons of complaints from gx axs users

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6/21/2022 4:45 AM

westrm wrote:

I'm about to ditch GX AXS because it essentially has no clutch and my chain flaps around like crazy and ive never had my feet ...more

therock911 wrote:

So I’m not going crazy and this is actually a thing with gx axs? I know Shimano always had firmer clutches but this gx axs ...more

Noeserd wrote:

Yes, there is tons of complaints from gx axs users

Many threads about how bad the Sram clutch is nowadays full stop. I have GX on my GF bike and the clutch got loose pretty quick and is not serviceable anymore. I have a X9 which has seen a lot of miles and that is still great and could be re tightened if needed. Shimano isn't perfect either but at least you can service it and it comes back to life and you can adjust the tension you need.

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6/21/2022 4:51 AM

Erwan_Ghesquiere wrote:

Many threads about how bad the Sram clutch is nowadays full stop. I have GX on my GF bike and the clutch got loose pretty ...more

As far as I have gathered, there is a patent for adjustable clutches, and SRAM can not implement a clutch that is possible to tighten (aka take up the slack) without violating that patent. Type 2 was possible to tighten, Type 2.1 implemented a mechanism to block that, which people were able to circumvent with some drills etc, and now Type 3 is just "sealed". That is sad.

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