MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Mr.Nally
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6/18/2022 12:55pm
Looks like an similar construction as a Athertons bikes, with carbon tubes and alloy/maybe ti junctions. Pretty different thing in Spesh! The linkage I think can...
Looks like an similar construction as a Athertons bikes, with carbon tubes and alloy/maybe ti junctions.
Pretty different thing in Spesh!

The linkage I think can be like an Norco with an upper link… just a guess
Yeah I thought front triangle looked bonded (top tube is very narrow diameter) and rear already looked carbon.

Good to see specialized putting work into a new DH bike already. The discipline is moving fast. Resting on your current platforms will bite hard in the near term.
1
6/18/2022 2:21pm
More of the new Demo


11
Noeserd
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6/18/2022 3:14pm Edited Date/Time 6/18/2022 3:18pm
Nearly hd photos of leaks, we are evolving

Also those chainstays are very thick
3
dolface
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6/18/2022 7:38pm
Massive and machined. What's driving the shock, is there a yoke hidden behind the crank?


3
6/18/2022 8:19pm
dolface wrote:
Massive and machined. What's driving the shock, is there a yoke hidden behind the crank? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/18/12629/s1200_Screen_Shot_2022_06_18_at_4.36.24_PM.jpg[/img]
Massive and machined. What's driving the shock, is there a yoke hidden behind the crank?


Seatstay looks to be carbon, very very similar to current Enduro. There’s a bit of space between the 27.5 wheel and seatstay bridge which on the 29er Enduro is much closer. Possible they used that part for this mule.

The forward part of the chainstay where it drops down and assumed shock position give off Norco vibes.


I’m also enjoying the unintentional shade from spy shots of a carbon-tubed / metal lug frame in front of the Atherton pits.
6
6/18/2022 8:39pm
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh?

IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets them easily prototype parts in-house so could be more of this from more brands in the future?
2
boozed
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6/18/2022 9:57pm
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets...
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh?

IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets them easily prototype parts in-house so could be more of this from more brands in the future?
This is pure speculation but Specialized strikes me as the kind of company that could afford to have its own prototyping facilities at HQ.
8
brash
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6/18/2022 10:54pm
spec would have that gear in house I'd imagine.
Mr.Nally
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6/18/2022 11:21pm
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets...
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh?

IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets them easily prototype parts in-house so could be more of this from more brands in the future?
That would be like North Korea helping the USA develop ballistic missiles Sideways
6
6/19/2022 12:15am
Mr.Nally wrote:
That would be like North Korea helping the USA develop ballistic missiles Sideways
Kinda, This style of Printing is reasonably high tech and not alot of it is even used and we've never seen it before in MTB.
I honestly cant see spesh forking out for this kinda tech just for prototyping.

Guess we all have to wait an see.
6/19/2022 12:30am
Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…
5
Primoz
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6/19/2022 1:13am
RE prototyping, it's hit or miss if they have it internally. It's more likely they have a CNC or two to facilitate that, for prototypes it's as good or even better. If you need something printed, you go external as it doesn't make sense to have a printer in house, if it's not used more or less 24/7 - there's maintenance, buying the materials and then there's personnel you need to run the machine, who needs to be up to date with new developments, etc.

On the other hand there are loads of companies around the world offering 3D printing of metal parts as a service. If nothing else you have Shapeways. And there are a few companies doing that just in Slovenia, let alone the tech company rich that is the Bay area.

As for what the Athertons are doing, the only 'interesting' part of it is that they are doing it on a production level. Otherwise making parts and gluing them together isn't a particularly novel thing in the cycling industry. I remember Rock Shox did that years ago with proto lowers (machined parts glued together), brazing of frames is same, but different (the braze acts like a glue kinda), there's Faction in Canada ( https://enduro-mtb.com/en/faction-bike-studio-visit/ ), etc.
4
6/19/2022 1:23am
Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…
High pivot isnt the Magic to a DH bike. Look at all the enduro bikes with HP yet where are they?

The Results from HP actually more come from less pedal kick and the suspension working "free'er" than the rearward axle. many have reported the Rear axle path can feel slower due to the energy of making the rear wheel actually go backwards instead of vertical or forward...
Its kinda like the feeling of 29er vs 27.5 as mullet My time spent on the GT and cannondale HP bikes felt exactly like that, super stable but due to fact of the extending wheelbase of a rearward axle... Every big hit felt like it slowed the bike down.

IMO - i think you gain more from the idler than the HP.
1
Primoz
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6/19/2022 1:34am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 1:39am
Re the Demo,


This is where the tubes are going roughly, so there has to be a chonker BB part that also deals with mounting the lower pivot and likely the linkage. I'm not ruling out the possibility that the chonker BB part begins right in (or even above?) the cover in order to mount the shock as well. The shock looks to be fairly parallel to the down tube given another pic showing the bridge and the dials of the Ohlins.

As far as the linkage is concerned... If the bottom pivot that we can see on the chainstay was the main pivot,t he IC would be INSANELY low (starts off behind the bike even). Might make it a low chain feedback bike though. Driving the shock would be easy. Given the picture from the other side with Finn riding the bike, it would also close the chainstay towards the chainring, maybe making packaging a bit cumbersome in some cases (given what it looks like from the other side).


Then there's this, a bit more conventional IC wise (and/or pivot height and all):


Driving the shock would require some sort of a flip-flop link making a pull into a push. Don't really see Specialized doing that, though it is a prototype.

There is the option of a 6-bar link a la DWLink6 (Athertons)...

Of course, the picture is at an angle, so this line drawing is nothing but internet banter.

It is interesting to see a 3D printed, lugged prototype under the WC riders, as they usually get a fairly refined product under them. In that regard this might be a rough mule to try out some suspension layout and characteristics concepts and it might come to nothing at the end of the day as far as new products go.

8
6/19/2022 4:43am
Is it just me or does this proto look to have a very long rear end? Also - no high-pivot… they keep on staying behind…
High pivot isnt the Magic to a DH bike. Look at all the enduro bikes with HP yet where are they? The Results from HP actually...
High pivot isnt the Magic to a DH bike. Look at all the enduro bikes with HP yet where are they?

The Results from HP actually more come from less pedal kick and the suspension working "free'er" than the rearward axle. many have reported the Rear axle path can feel slower due to the energy of making the rear wheel actually go backwards instead of vertical or forward...
Its kinda like the feeling of 29er vs 27.5 as mullet My time spent on the GT and cannondale HP bikes felt exactly like that, super stable but due to fact of the extending wheelbase of a rearward axle... Every big hit felt like it slowed the bike down.

IMO - i think you gain more from the idler than the HP.
Uhm, i don’t understand you. You state HP isn’t the magic for dh-bikes and then you ask me what it does for enduro-bikes. As far as i remember, someone explained why HP works better nowadays and not so much in the past with the steep, short, tall 26er - because of the bigger wheels today. As far as race results - you can see for yourself, in the past several years the most successful bikes have been HP. As far as enduro - not so much. But racers and regular weekend warriors are way too different. While a racer has the stamina to ride a stiffer bike in order to loose less momentum on the chunky stuff, it’s not the same for us regular folks - i’ll give an example with me: years ago on a pretty long and fast race track i tried running stiffer suspension. Although the bike lost noticeably less momentum, i got a lot more tired because of the bigger hits i felt with my body, especially didn’t like the rear where i could feel a lot of the chunky stuff with my feet. In several laps and i was done with this setup - got it way softer, especially with the rear (long live the air shocks). Difference was night and day, it did get a little more hung-up on the bigger rocks, but my feet were waaaay calmer and therefore stronger, i could push harder and generally felt more comfortable. This on a non HP-bike. Now with HPs, people riding them and sharing experience, state something similar, that it does level the chunky stuff, that you don’t feel all the terrain too much with your feet. For some, this is bad. For others like me and a lot of people around me this is good. And i’d be willing to try it out, even on an enduro bike (although i don’t see myself going for something lighter and shorter travel than a Norco Range, for example. Smile
1
Primoz
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6/19/2022 7:43am Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 9:04am
As you mentioned, the wheels are bigger today and BBs lower. That means the IC, to get a decent antisquat and pedal kickback figure, needs to be relatively lower today compared to the rear axle height than with 26" wheels as a double whammy - because of the lower BBs by itself and because of the larger wheels by themselves. That means a less rearward axle path on modern bikes compared to 26" bikes.

A high pivot works just as well on a high pivot bike, case in point, Lahar, Zerode G1, probably some other bikes as well. The thing is it's not as needed as it is on a 29er maybe.

Another factor might be the tracks in DH of today vs. the tracks 10 to 20 years ago - they are much faster today and carrying speed is more important than it ever was.

With the rearward axle path, the rear wheel moves 'away' from the impact and thus robs the rider of less energy, slowing her/him down less. The wheelbase moving under the rider is likely a negative, but looks like a high pivot does bring positives for DH.

As to why there aren't enduro bikes with high pivots, at least not as many, I'd say it's a combination of increased drag (noticeable or not, it almost doubles, it's simple physics) and looking at what Jack Moir is doing, with how small a frame he's running, the balls to the wall speed capability a higher pivot bike gives might not be as beneficial as it is with a DH bike. At least that's how I see it.

Speaking of Moir: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23M4MZBtecE
Boy does he look funny on that small of a bike. But it works for him.
3
Uncle Cliffy
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6/19/2022 2:03pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 2:06pm
Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?




3
2
gibbon
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6/19/2022 2:25pm
Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals.
3
6/19/2022 2:44pm
gibbon wrote:
Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals.
Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup Wink
nskerb
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6/19/2022 2:53pm
I think he’s grossly exaggerating pedal kick in both directions. Specifically the forward part though.
1
peecee
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Fantasy
6/19/2022 5:09pm
More of the new Demo [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/18/12627/s1200_prototipo_specialized_portada_re.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/18/12628/s1200_mosaico_proto_specialized_opti.jpg[/img]
More of the new Demo


Maybe Specialized are going down the Ancillotti route






4
bismojo
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6/19/2022 6:47pm Edited Date/Time 6/19/2022 6:48pm
More of the new Demo [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/18/12627/s1200_prototipo_specialized_portada_re.jpg[/img] [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/06/18/12628/s1200_mosaico_proto_specialized_opti.jpg[/img]
More of the new Demo


loving the ktm style (cast/printed) chainstay 😻👌
1
boozed
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6/19/2022 9:54pm
bismojo wrote:
loving the ktm style (cast/printed) chainstay 😻👌
I'd be surprised if that wasn't simply milled
7
FullSend
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6/20/2022 7:33am
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets...
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh?

IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets them easily prototype parts in-house so could be more of this from more brands in the future?
boozed wrote:
This is pure speculation but Specialized strikes me as the kind of company that could afford to have its own prototyping facilities at HQ.
For a couple of years, Specialized has outsourced the suspension development to a German company called Denk Engineering. Denk came up with the suspension platform of the current Enduro, Demo and Kenevo SL.
10
slimshady
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6/20/2022 8:09am Edited Date/Time 6/20/2022 8:12am
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh? IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets...
I wonder if Atherton's have anything to do with this bike? Looks like they are maybe providing the proto parts/bike for spesh?

IMO, Atherton's Manufacturing lets them easily prototype parts in-house so could be more of this from more brands in the future?
boozed wrote:
This is pure speculation but Specialized strikes me as the kind of company that could afford to have its own prototyping facilities at HQ.
FullSend wrote:
For a couple of years, Specialized has outsourced the suspension development to a German company called Denk Engineering. Denk came up with the suspension platform of...
For a couple of years, Specialized has outsourced the suspension development to a German company called Denk Engineering. Denk came up with the suspension platform of the current Enduro, Demo and Kenevo SL.
Peter Denk was also responsible for the wild Scott designs of the late 90s and early 00s. He's quite a wild engineer.

I still dream of owning an Intoxica.
1
Primoz
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6/20/2022 8:46am
Are we sure about Denk and the Enduro/Demo/Kenevo layout? He's fairly well known to be Mr. Single Pivot. Since he started working with Specialized, the Stumpjumper and Epic went single pivot (understandable for the Epic for weight reasons, but still), he was with Cannondale before that where he also introduced the pull shock and before that he worked with Scott, that also used single pivots and often pullshocks. Soon after the Denk collaboration (and after the FSR patent expired) Scott went all in on the Horst link...
1
w4s
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6/20/2022 9:31am
gibbon wrote:
Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals.
Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup Wink
i would like to hear more about why you feel this way. any negatives with this setup?
6/20/2022 9:50am
Bike Company hires Peter Denk. Denk designs proprietory pullshock suspension. Pullshock still doesn't work well and noone will service. Denk is excused from their services? Something like this?
4
Primoz
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6/20/2022 1:01pm
gibbon wrote:
Nobody talking about this sorcery yet?

Because your chain flapping about is'nt going to smack your fat arse offa your pedals.
Wait untill you ride it.. then try go back to a normal setup Wink
w4s wrote:
i would like to hear more about why you feel this way. any negatives with this setup?
'Freehub' engagement.
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