MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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Primoz
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4572
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SI
5/18/2022 9:23am
It's so interesting the Pike has gone from a 160 fork to a 120 fork over the years, while the fuel ex has gone from a 110ish bike to the a 150 bike 😂
8
jonkranked
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1190
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5/5/2016
Location
Norristown, PA US
5/18/2022 9:44am
This has been: a shimano moment. Remember even before Covid when they tried to launch 12 speed and it took like 2 years longer than expected
TimBud wrote:
Yeah, that was the fire that took out their high end factory (XTR/Dura-Ace)
correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe Saint is manufactured in that facility as well
Onawalk
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344
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Location
CA
5/18/2022 10:05am
Primoz wrote:
Option? How does that work?
Onawalk wrote:
Similar to the Aurum, which had a high pivot, and a regular Horst link setup. Norco has done it before, the current Sight is pretty spot...
Similar to the Aurum, which had a high pivot, and a regular Horst link setup.
Norco has done it before, the current Sight is pretty spot on geo wise, so it makes sense to leave that bike, and build a high pivot bike similar to the Druid.

The owner of Forbiden used to be a Norco designer, so it wouldn’t be surprising to see a Sight HP, something lighter and more versatile than the Range…
Primoz wrote:
The catch is the HP Aurum was an all new design, carbon only, where the non-HP Aurum was left in the lineup as the cheaper, Al...
The catch is the HP Aurum was an all new design, carbon only, where the non-HP Aurum was left in the lineup as the cheaper, Al version. So same for the SIght then?

And another issue with all of that is the fact that a lot of people say a HP barely makes sense for enduro racing, let alone for a trail bike. It's a risky move to go for a HP bike in the trail segment for an established brand if you ask me...
Not sure I understand the concern or the risk, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong. Seems like an exact situation as the Aurum to me, Norco designs a carbon HP Sight, which would be an all new design (obviously) that would be their “premium” trail bike. Keeps, the old Sight as an alu only version, cause you might as well, prices it competitively to make more value from the design and tooling.

This is a direct competitor to the forbidden Druid, which where I am is a commercial success.

Seems like a similar strategy to the Aurum, which was essentially the genesis to the Range (similar philosophy, different design born from lessons learned from the Aurum HP project)

Specialized has a proven that carbon high end (stumpy) and alu entry level is a viable solution to make use of different design ideas (flex stay vs. trad Horst link)

Again, just theories
4
5/18/2022 11:05am
FullSend wrote:
New Trek Fuel EX for 2023: Full-suspension all-mountain bike 29" wheels 140mm rear 150mm front (160mm fork compatible) 65° HTA 480mm reach in size L 76°...
New Trek Fuel EX for 2023:

Full-suspension all-mountain bike
29" wheels
140mm rear
150mm front (160mm fork compatible)
65° HTA
480mm reach in size L
76° effective STA
6 different frame sizes
MinoLink flip-chip (+/- 0.5° adjustment)
Knock block 2.0 (optional)
55mm chainline
Alloy and carbon frame options
Thru Shaft shock optional
No more RE:aktiv valving
Downtube storage

I could only get German prices and pricing structure apparently isn't final:
Alloy options starting at around 2600€
Carbon options starting at around 4500€

No surprises here. Basically exactly what you'd expect from an updated Fuel EX in 2022.

EDIT: Bike is to launch in Fall of 2022
Ive seen it in the wild... most dramatic changes are in the looks department.
6
Scrub
Posts
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Location
Elk Grove/Truckee, CA US
Fantasy
5/18/2022 11:11am
Sir HC wrote:
Guessing Rockshox 2023 [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/05/18/12503/s1200_280605780_771449024021921_2548176906749073444_n.jpg[/img]
Guessing Rockshox 2023
A box of new industry standards?
22
Onawalk
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344
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Location
CA
5/18/2022 11:20am
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension...
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension ratio. 603 stack on a large is terrible - the stack/reach ratio is 1.24 which is very low and needs to be closer to 1.3.

Otherwise its a great bike, heavy but solid. If its stack was closer to the Marin Alpine it would be spot on(marin is a similar geo bike overal at 632 stack.) they both ride very similar including both weighing pretty much the same, the Marin rides lighter and is probably due to the seriously low suspension ratio of 2.3.
Not sure where your stack number is coming from,
Wife has a medium 2020 alloy Sight, shows 612mm for stack, which is a hair lower than my 2018 Sentinel.
Large shows as 621.

Measured, Sight stack is actual 618ish.

Some prefer it, some don’t, it’s their trailing bike, not the current enduro so it works for our purposes.

I find it interesting that people think a HP is a risk for a trail bike, seems like a good application to me. I figured a Freeride HP bike was interesting, and everyone I know that has one friggin loves it.

Different horses they say
3
Edthorne
Posts
293
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Location
CA
5/18/2022 12:08pm
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension...
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension ratio. 603 stack on a large is terrible - the stack/reach ratio is 1.24 which is very low and needs to be closer to 1.3.

Otherwise its a great bike, heavy but solid. If its stack was closer to the Marin Alpine it would be spot on(marin is a similar geo bike overal at 632 stack.) they both ride very similar including both weighing pretty much the same, the Marin rides lighter and is probably due to the seriously low suspension ratio of 2.3.
I don't think it would be particularly risky given the rise in other high pivot/idler equipped bikes on the market. Even though not everyone is sold on high pivot bikes, there is a lot of interest in them, and bikes like the Druid are selling well.

There's also the question of how high the pivot may be. They could choose to only slightly raise the main pivot point for a more rearward than average beginning-mid stroke, and add an idler to help isolate suspension forces from the drivetrain. All while maintaining the same general horst link layout that the current Sight has. Similar to the set up on the current Fury. Or they could go pretty extreme with it like they did on the Range.

If you just don't want an idler then I get that, but otherwise there's no reason this should turn out worse for anyone than any other re-design a brand undertakes.
1
5/18/2022 1:53pm
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension...
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension ratio. 603 stack on a large is terrible - the stack/reach ratio is 1.24 which is very low and needs to be closer to 1.3.

Otherwise its a great bike, heavy but solid. If its stack was closer to the Marin Alpine it would be spot on(marin is a similar geo bike overal at 632 stack.) they both ride very similar including both weighing pretty much the same, the Marin rides lighter and is probably due to the seriously low suspension ratio of 2.3.
Onawalk wrote:
Not sure where your stack number is coming from, Wife has a medium 2020 alloy Sight, shows 612mm for stack, which is a hair lower than...
Not sure where your stack number is coming from,
Wife has a medium 2020 alloy Sight, shows 612mm for stack, which is a hair lower than my 2018 Sentinel.
Large shows as 621.

Measured, Sight stack is actual 618ish.

Some prefer it, some don’t, it’s their trailing bike, not the current enduro so it works for our purposes.

I find it interesting that people think a HP is a risk for a trail bike, seems like a good application to me. I figured a Freeride HP bike was interesting, and everyone I know that has one friggin loves it.

Different horses they say
Sorry i Apologize, The link i looked at said 603 for large but thats in 27.5 when mine was a 29er, but still front even felt low. - as a heavier rider i, and as many others in this weight catagory suffer from the limited range of Available suspension feel, ie you could go either direction in support or small bump but not both(without spending big bucks on cascade etc and my testing was done on a fox factory x2.)

For sure on the HP being as per each individual but Ive owned the highlander and jekyll. ive also ridden the dreadnaught and the GT Force.
All 4 had a similar back end feeling, great for smashing but I felt it lacked Naturally agility of having chain tension(hard to explain for me but try taking your chain off a normal layout)

Honestly Not hating on HP and think it has its place solidly on Downhill bikes But i think the lack of brands still not utilizing the platform on trail/enduro Paint a clear enough picture that some brands are Happy to change over and others are not, do i think it belongs on Trail/enduro? No way. Unfortunately EWS and most trail centres are not big wide open stages/trails.

Something i like to follow is commencal even though i dont own one, over the last few years they are always developing in the wild and i think commencal being commencal if they seen a benefit to HP for enduro bikes the Meta SX for sure would've received one in this years update.

Is high pivot popular for just being different? people being happy with the benefits it provides and not worrying about what HP takes away? Im all for advancements and have welcomed every change we've seen but this HP thing still has me a bit cautious and thats based on fact of ownership and riding them.

6
Onawalk
Posts
344
Joined
7/5/2021
Location
CA
5/18/2022 2:47pm
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension...
Be awfully risky for Norco to go HP on the sight, IMO after owning an alloy one - Needs increased stack height and a lower suspension ratio. 603 stack on a large is terrible - the stack/reach ratio is 1.24 which is very low and needs to be closer to 1.3.

Otherwise its a great bike, heavy but solid. If its stack was closer to the Marin Alpine it would be spot on(marin is a similar geo bike overal at 632 stack.) they both ride very similar including both weighing pretty much the same, the Marin rides lighter and is probably due to the seriously low suspension ratio of 2.3.
Onawalk wrote:
Not sure where your stack number is coming from, Wife has a medium 2020 alloy Sight, shows 612mm for stack, which is a hair lower than...
Not sure where your stack number is coming from,
Wife has a medium 2020 alloy Sight, shows 612mm for stack, which is a hair lower than my 2018 Sentinel.
Large shows as 621.

Measured, Sight stack is actual 618ish.

Some prefer it, some don’t, it’s their trailing bike, not the current enduro so it works for our purposes.

I find it interesting that people think a HP is a risk for a trail bike, seems like a good application to me. I figured a Freeride HP bike was interesting, and everyone I know that has one friggin loves it.

Different horses they say
Sorry i Apologize, The link i looked at said 603 for large but thats in 27.5 when mine was a 29er, but still front even felt...
Sorry i Apologize, The link i looked at said 603 for large but thats in 27.5 when mine was a 29er, but still front even felt low. - as a heavier rider i, and as many others in this weight catagory suffer from the limited range of Available suspension feel, ie you could go either direction in support or small bump but not both(without spending big bucks on cascade etc and my testing was done on a fox factory x2.)

For sure on the HP being as per each individual but Ive owned the highlander and jekyll. ive also ridden the dreadnaught and the GT Force.
All 4 had a similar back end feeling, great for smashing but I felt it lacked Naturally agility of having chain tension(hard to explain for me but try taking your chain off a normal layout)

Honestly Not hating on HP and think it has its place solidly on Downhill bikes But i think the lack of brands still not utilizing the platform on trail/enduro Paint a clear enough picture that some brands are Happy to change over and others are not, do i think it belongs on Trail/enduro? No way. Unfortunately EWS and most trail centres are not big wide open stages/trails.

Something i like to follow is commencal even though i dont own one, over the last few years they are always developing in the wild and i think commencal being commencal if they seen a benefit to HP for enduro bikes the Meta SX for sure would've received one in this years update.

Is high pivot popular for just being different? people being happy with the benefits it provides and not worrying about what HP takes away? Im all for advancements and have welcomed every change we've seen but this HP thing still has me a bit cautious and thats based on fact of ownership and riding them.

All good,
Love chainless runs at bike parks when I get the chance. .

I’m a heavier guy myself, run a Luftkappe equipped Lyrik, and a Cascade link on my Sentinel.
I like the stack on both the Sentinel and Sight, feel identical to me in that regard.

Apologies to all, haven’t figured out how to direct message yet.
5/18/2022 6:03pm
New giant? Or it's just the current one?



3
DonutMTB
Posts
20
Joined
6/8/2020
Location
Hagerstown, MD US
5/18/2022 6:07pm
Endurhevia wrote:
New giant? Or it's just the current one? [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/05/18/12505/s1200_Screenshot_2022_05_18_21_01_24_182_com.instagram.android.jpg[/img]
New giant? Or it's just the current one?



Looks different to my eyes.
4
boozed
Posts
666
Joined
6/11/2019
Location
AU
5/18/2022 8:22pm
That looks a lot like the current Trance Advanced Pro 29
5/18/2022 8:23pm Edited Date/Time 5/18/2022 8:27pm
I believe the new one is a all-new Shape, same suspension layout but stronger Carbon frame. - the old one wasnt that stiff for carbon
Expect atleast 155mm of travel on the reign, when i owned mine back last year i was told july for giants release, not sure if thats true though as never thought about them again after having two ruined carbon frames.
2
1
5/19/2022 6:11am
Ive seen it in the wild... most dramatic changes are in the looks department.
heard all kinds of rumors, different shock placement?
Primoz
Posts
4572
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
5/19/2022 6:56am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2022 7:00am
Both. It switches mid travel. Kinda like what happens on the Ghost or on modern Ibis DW link bikes.

In those two cases the links start off co-rotating then the lower link starts to counter rotate. With the Meta it will be the opposite because the lower link is forward facing.

If you look at it from the top link's perspective, it will be pulling the swingarm and thus the lower link up over the 'hump', which will be passed once the pivots of the top link are aligned with the midpoint of the lower link. From that point on the lower link will co-rotate with the top and the front of the swingarm will start moving downwards. But as it will still be rotating clockwise (looking from the driveside), the rear axle will still be rising of course.
7
5/19/2022 7:51am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2022 8:33am
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles."



I have overlapped a 2022 over the new prototype for geometry comparison (scaled up with the front wheel). The wheels are lined up on the ground and BB set at the same spot horizontally. Assuming it's the same size, the new one looks :

WB is way shorter
BB slightly higher
29" wheels F/R
Chainstay length is shorter
HA is 64.0 (+/- 0.05 degrees) from what I found out in Photoshop.
STA seems pretty much identical as the 2022
ST length looks to be the same

Interesting to see where they're going! Is it the end of the longer/slacker trend?


10
AndehM
Posts
643
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Location
El Granada, CA US
Fantasy
5/19/2022 8:09am
That makes sense and is kind of in line with what Canyon was saying with their update this year. Going full 29 instead of mullet because Enduro needs to be able to preserve speed on mid-stage climbs. Not super low because of rough courses. Not super long or slack to handle Euro corners.
6
misterha2011
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19
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Location
College Park, MD US
5/19/2022 8:21am
Primoz wrote:
Both. It switches mid travel. Kinda like what happens on the Ghost or on modern Ibis DW link bikes. In those two cases the links start...
Both. It switches mid travel. Kinda like what happens on the Ghost or on modern Ibis DW link bikes.

In those two cases the links start off co-rotating then the lower link starts to counter rotate. With the Meta it will be the opposite because the lower link is forward facing.

If you look at it from the top link's perspective, it will be pulling the swingarm and thus the lower link up over the 'hump', which will be passed once the pivots of the top link are aligned with the midpoint of the lower link. From that point on the lower link will co-rotate with the top and the front of the swingarm will start moving downwards. But as it will still be rotating clockwise (looking from the driveside), the rear axle will still be rising of course.
Sounds like yeti's early switch link designed by Dave Earle
1
haen
Posts
105
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12/3/2020
Location
CA US
5/19/2022 8:50am
mntnmrtn wrote:
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles." [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/12507/s1200_meta2023.jpg[/img] I have overlapped a 2022...
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles."



I have overlapped a 2022 over the new prototype for geometry comparison (scaled up with the front wheel). The wheels are lined up on the ground and BB set at the same spot horizontally. Assuming it's the same size, the new one looks :

WB is way shorter
BB slightly higher
29" wheels F/R
Chainstay length is shorter
HA is 64.0 (+/- 0.05 degrees) from what I found out in Photoshop.
STA seems pretty much identical as the 2022
ST length looks to be the same

Interesting to see where they're going! Is it the end of the longer/slacker trend?


How do you know they are the same size frame?
5
5/19/2022 8:59am Edited Date/Time 5/19/2022 9:02am
haen wrote:
How do you know they are the same size frame?
Obviously, I don't know any more than you. That's why I wrote " assuming it's the same size" since the seat tube and stack look exactly the same.

Looks like 70-80 mm less wheelbase anyway, and 80mm is the difference between and XL and S on the 2022s. I'd guess they wouldn't show a small or XL bike in the press release too. You're welcome to do some other photoshop renderings and share your guesses if you want, too.
4
haen
Posts
105
Joined
12/3/2020
Location
CA US
5/19/2022 9:03am
haen wrote:
How do you know they are the same size frame?
mntnmrtn wrote:
Obviously, I don't know any more than you. That's why I wrote " assuming it's the same size" since the seat tube and stack look exactly...
Obviously, I don't know any more than you. That's why I wrote " assuming it's the same size" since the seat tube and stack look exactly the same.

Looks like 70-80 mm less wheelbase anyway, and 80mm is the difference between and XL and S on the 2022s. I'd guess they wouldn't show a small or XL bike in the press release too. You're welcome to do some other photoshop renderings and share your guesses if you want, too.
I missed that part of your analysis! Not disagreeing with you. I appreciate the work you put into it. We'll just have to wait for official specs.
1
Primoz
Posts
4572
Joined
8/1/2009
Location
SI
5/19/2022 9:04am
Primoz wrote:
Both. It switches mid travel. Kinda like what happens on the Ghost or on modern Ibis DW link bikes. In those two cases the links start...
Both. It switches mid travel. Kinda like what happens on the Ghost or on modern Ibis DW link bikes.

In those two cases the links start off co-rotating then the lower link starts to counter rotate. With the Meta it will be the opposite because the lower link is forward facing.

If you look at it from the top link's perspective, it will be pulling the swingarm and thus the lower link up over the 'hump', which will be passed once the pivots of the top link are aligned with the midpoint of the lower link. From that point on the lower link will co-rotate with the top and the front of the swingarm will start moving downwards. But as it will still be rotating clockwise (looking from the driveside), the rear axle will still be rising of course.
Sounds like yeti's early switch link designed by Dave Earle
Kinda, yeah. I mean the rail system does a similar thing, but the link is 'just' infinitely long Smile
gibbon
Posts
463
Joined
3/7/2019
Location
wales GB
5/19/2022 10:39am
1.8" steerer on those 38's or just a 56mm id headtube?
juliusk
Posts
116
Joined
1/21/2021
Location
Clausthal-Zellerfeld DE
5/19/2022 10:49am
New Proto Wilson as it seems
1
Fred_Pop
Posts
227
Joined
11/26/2017
Location
FR
5/19/2022 10:52am
mntnmrtn wrote:
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles." [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/12507/s1200_meta2023.jpg[/img] I have overlapped a 2022...
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles."



I have overlapped a 2022 over the new prototype for geometry comparison (scaled up with the front wheel). The wheels are lined up on the ground and BB set at the same spot horizontally. Assuming it's the same size, the new one looks :

WB is way shorter
BB slightly higher
29" wheels F/R
Chainstay length is shorter
HA is 64.0 (+/- 0.05 degrees) from what I found out in Photoshop.
STA seems pretty much identical as the 2022
ST length looks to be the same

Interesting to see where they're going! Is it the end of the longer/slacker trend?


Doesn't look like the same size. HA does look steeper and SA the same. Shame seat tube isn't shorter.
Noeserd
Posts
183
Joined
10/21/2020
Location
TR
5/19/2022 10:54am
mntnmrtn wrote:
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles." [img]https://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/forums/2022/05/19/12507/s1200_meta2023.jpg[/img] I have overlapped a 2022...
They say "Even if this is only the beginning, it has allowed us to confirm new kinematics and geometry principles."



I have overlapped a 2022 over the new prototype for geometry comparison (scaled up with the front wheel). The wheels are lined up on the ground and BB set at the same spot horizontally. Assuming it's the same size, the new one looks :

WB is way shorter
BB slightly higher
29" wheels F/R
Chainstay length is shorter
HA is 64.0 (+/- 0.05 degrees) from what I found out in Photoshop.
STA seems pretty much identical as the 2022
ST length looks to be the same

Interesting to see where they're going! Is it the end of the longer/slacker trend?


So sx will be the shred bike and am will be the proper enduro this time
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