Sorry to change the subject, but does anyone know if there is a 2024 USDH National series? With the announcement of the 2024 US Open and the Tennessee National both having dates you'd think it would be public. I know last year there was a 3 race series, however I don't think it was points paying and I'm pretty sure no overall series awards were handed out. I've heard rumors of Mammoth and Rock Creek also hosting National Series races in 24'.
Canadian email didn’t offer any future options for viewing. Max isn’t available up here.
It will likely all end up on Flosports... Since the original email from GCN+ some of the Cyclocross content (X20 and Exact Cross) that was exclusive to GCN+ in Canada is now available on Flosports. If that is the case it is good news bad news, good news being all your cycling content is available on one platform... Flosports already had the Canadian rights to all the grand tours, the world championships in all disciplines, so adding MTB and the other half off GCN is a win for the subscriber. Bad news is while CGN+ was $60 annually Flosports is quite expensive and they only offer annual memberships. They sell it on $12/per month USD but hit your card for the full year, with the exchange rate that Visa charges its over $200 CAD pre year. With Flosports you can enjoy other niche sports such as Bowling, Rodeo, Team Cheerleading, Fitness, Singing and more...
It will likely all end up on Flosports... Since the original email from GCN+ some of the Cyclocross content (X20 and Exact Cross) that was exclusive...
It will likely all end up on Flosports... Since the original email from GCN+ some of the Cyclocross content (X20 and Exact Cross) that was exclusive to GCN+ in Canada is now available on Flosports. If that is the case it is good news bad news, good news being all your cycling content is available on one platform... Flosports already had the Canadian rights to all the grand tours, the world championships in all disciplines, so adding MTB and the other half off GCN is a win for the subscriber. Bad news is while CGN+ was $60 annually Flosports is quite expensive and they only offer annual memberships. They sell it on $12/per month USD but hit your card for the full year, with the exchange rate that Visa charges its over $200 CAD pre year. With Flosports you can enjoy other niche sports such as Bowling, Rodeo, Team Cheerleading, Fitness, Singing and more...
Yeah I got sucked into Flo before and never again. I do like to watch all the cross races over the holiday season but Flo just used the local feed with Dutch announcers. No option to change to English.
Yeah I got sucked into Flo before and never again. I do like to watch all the cross races over the holiday season but Flo just...
Yeah I got sucked into Flo before and never again. I do like to watch all the cross races over the holiday season but Flo just used the local feed with Dutch announcers. No option to change to English.
Well we're just racking up the positives! they have added english commentary with J-Pow (seemingly moving over from GCN+ as well). Pre and Post race interviews are still in Flemish Dutch... UCI World Cups are still the Eurosport feed (i think) and in english.
Makes perfect sense. A year after all time low viewership and an industry that is hurting badly; let's make it harder for people to view the sport. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and logical thing to do right now. Don't bring the sport to more people and eyeballs when we need more people riding bikes.....that could potentially help save businesses and continuing to progressing our sport through racing. Seems a lot like government unfortunately. Short-sightedness and doing some ass backwards shit that doesn't help our sport it only further erodes it. As a core racing fan, I sat out last year because of the fees. Bummed they didn't learn from the super low viewership last year but I guess all they are seeing is $$$. I have my Supercross and Motocross pass -- and I get more racing and excitement for less money with year round access from them. And Dakar and Supercross are just around the corner.
Makes perfect sense. A year after all time low viewership and an industry that is hurting badly; let's make it harder for people to view the...
Makes perfect sense. A year after all time low viewership and an industry that is hurting badly; let's make it harder for people to view the sport. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and logical thing to do right now. Don't bring the sport to more people and eyeballs when we need more people riding bikes.....that could potentially help save businesses and continuing to progressing our sport through racing. Seems a lot like government unfortunately. Short-sightedness and doing some ass backwards shit that doesn't help our sport it only further erodes it. As a core racing fan, I sat out last year because of the fees. Bummed they didn't learn from the super low viewership last year but I guess all they are seeing is $$$. I have my Supercross and Motocross pass -- and I get more racing and excitement for less money with year round access from them. And Dakar and Supercross are just around the corner.
MAX Standard allows 5 user profiles, 2* of which can stream simultaneously. And although I can't find any information that would suggest the B/R ad-on would be any different...I am highly suspicious that it would make anything better.
Edit was because simultaneous streaming is 2, not 3. Because of course it is.
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages.
This is the exact opposite of growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. This will convince cycling companies to cut their spending in mountain biking across all disciplines. Why continue sponsorship if viewership and access to the sport is being cut? Is there any return on the investment for sponsors?
I pay a whopping $2 a month to watch motorcross and supercross on Peacock. I'd do that for DH, but no more (especially with Rick and...
I pay a whopping $2 a month to watch motorcross and supercross on Peacock. I'd do that for DH, but no more (especially with Rick and Cedric).
Tiz-Cycling streamed all the WC DH finals last year. Sometimes the feed would get cut, but then a new one would pop up. I saw every final and paid zero $ to do so.
I bet it will be out there again for free you'll just have to dig for it. We need a dedicated thread for that.....
If you can wait for the replay to come up on Tiz it streams way better, no need to keep refreshing.
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages. ...
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages.
This is the exact opposite of growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. This will convince cycling companies to cut their spending in mountain biking across all disciplines. Why continue sponsorship if viewership and access to the sport is being cut? Is there any return on the investment for sponsors?
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports, which now includes ESO probably have very little say in how the TV product gets aired. Nature of the beast and all that.
It's a real shame 2024 season won't be on the one streaming platform worldwide. MTB is not big enough for viewers to have to search out a single provider in each territory. Nightmare stuff.
Those figures are Youtube only. And much of the data shows an increase in viewership in 2023, so the exact opposite of your point. For example, DH Finals highlights in 2023 on the WDB channels was almost triple of the 2019 RB bike figures. So yeah, you are smoking something?
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages. ...
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages.
This is the exact opposite of growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. This will convince cycling companies to cut their spending in mountain biking across all disciplines. Why continue sponsorship if viewership and access to the sport is being cut? Is there any return on the investment for sponsors?
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports...
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports, which now includes ESO probably have very little say in how the TV product gets aired. Nature of the beast and all that.
It's a real shame 2024 season won't be on the one streaming platform worldwide. MTB is not big enough for viewers to have to search out a single provider in each territory. Nightmare stuff.
Warner/Discovery/ESO talked big about growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. Their actions have done the exact opposite. Restricting coverage behind a paywall decreases viewership, making the return on investment for sponsors lower. Even F1 lost viewership when it went behind a paywall and it is a much bigger sport than mountain biking.
Why would a company outside mountain biking spend money on a race team that is getting little to no visibility. At the same time they are increasing team fees, IIRC they more than doubled last year and are increasing again for 2024.
ESO is only interested in creating a sports viewing monopoly and doesn't care if they kill the sport as long as they are the only one profiting from it.
Warner/Discovery/ESO talked big about growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. Their actions have done the exact opposite. Restricting coverage behind a paywall decreases viewership...
Warner/Discovery/ESO talked big about growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. Their actions have done the exact opposite. Restricting coverage behind a paywall decreases viewership, making the return on investment for sponsors lower. Even F1 lost viewership when it went behind a paywall and it is a much bigger sport than mountain biking.
Why would a company outside mountain biking spend money on a race team that is getting little to no visibility. At the same time they are increasing team fees, IIRC they more than doubled last year and are increasing again for 2024.
ESO is only interested in creating a sports viewing monopoly and doesn't care if they kill the sport as long as they are the only one profiting from it.
I'm not debating WDB sports motivations or even actions. Simply saying that with a broadcast company as massive as WBD, the people behind running and promoting the UCI world cup series will have ZERO say in where the races get broadcast in different territories.
WBD won't be making a special streaming platform just for MTB, so sadly we'll just get whatever shit we are given.
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages. ...
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages.
This is the exact opposite of growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. This will convince cycling companies to cut their spending in mountain biking across all disciplines. Why continue sponsorship if viewership and access to the sport is being cut? Is there any return on the investment for sponsors?
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports...
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports, which now includes ESO probably have very little say in how the TV product gets aired. Nature of the beast and all that.
It's a real shame 2024 season won't be on the one streaming platform worldwide. MTB is not big enough for viewers to have to search out a single provider in each territory. Nightmare stuff.
Sorry Mr. Nally but there have been multiple Pinkbike articles that have brought up this point in recent months. I just grabbed the first one that popped in my google search since someone asked. Everyone in the comments has similar feelings and thoughts about the effects of these decisions. I know just about everyone I speak with in my shop/community has said they stopped viewing last year because of the pay to play model. The comments here seem to support that as well... I love DH racing and have followed and watched just about every race since 2006 up until last year. So I’ve been super bummed to lose access to this. What I have watched wasn’t nearly as good of coverage. Cedric isn’t Rob and Elliot. Can’t make up for losing the voice/s of our sport either. Lots of stupid counterproductive decisions have been made here in my opinion. Decisions that hurt our sport. Not help it unfortunately. And our industry is hurting right now. Big time. We’ve lost 6 bike shops in GA in the last 12 to 14 months. Like I said, I get more for less with an arguably a more exciting and extensive race season in Supercross and Motorcross. It’s definitely not monthly fees. But that said I’m still bummed because I truly love our sport and I love DH racing and all the incredible things it does for our sport. It’s almost like football for title 9 in high school and college—huge funding and technology for all the other sports—huge development opportunities for riders and bike companies. Often we see top down technology development on mountain bikes because DH bikes are pushed so much harder. These things could be negatively impacted as well. But more eyes and stoke on racing hopefully helps create more stoke to go ride bikes. Because that is what our industry needs right now. People’s jobs, businesses and livelihoods are ultimately on the line. And this could help out instead of exacerbating the situation is my point.
Those figures are Youtube only. And much of the data shows an increase in viewership in 2023, so the exact opposite of your point. For example...
Those figures are Youtube only. And much of the data shows an increase in viewership in 2023, so the exact opposite of your point. For example, DH Finals highlights in 2023 on the WDB channels was almost triple of the 2019 RB bike figures. So yeah, you are smoking something?
What is the data that you're referring to that shows an increase in viewership? Genuinely curious, as I've seen many fans mention they didn't pay to watch live racing, but ate up all the free YouTube content and highlight videos. That would coincide with the pb article, but doesn't mean the actual, live race numbers are better than RBs numbers.
I don't watch much of the web content, outside of Vital raw, but I did pay for gcn+ for watching the live dh/xc races. My 2 brothers did not, but watched a ton of the free content and highlights vids. More eyes on web content, but on the other side of the coin, they really lost 2 race viewers.
All that aside, if I can't access the live stuff via VPN, I'm going to be watching the highlights videos as I more than likely won't be paying for Max and the add-on, as I don't care about what they have to offer, other than the MTB stuff.
So I need to pay $20 a month for a streaming service id otherwise have no interest in to watch 7 races, some of which are a month apart. Just to put into perspective I pay $6 for peacock and I get almost 30 races of Supercross/Motocross, Sunday night football, and some good shows/movies.
We use our neighbor's HBO through our Roku.
It's got FIVE users for streaming.
I think the answer is to check how many people can stream simultaneously on one Max account if you're only purchasing their streaming option as opposed to having HBO through cable/satelitte.
Sorry Mr. Nally but there have been multiple Pinkbike articles that have brought up this point in recent months. I just grabbed the first one that...
Sorry Mr. Nally but there have been multiple Pinkbike articles that have brought up this point in recent months. I just grabbed the first one that popped in my google search since someone asked. Everyone in the comments has similar feelings and thoughts about the effects of these decisions. I know just about everyone I speak with in my shop/community has said they stopped viewing last year because of the pay to play model. The comments here seem to support that as well... I love DH racing and have followed and watched just about every race since 2006 up until last year. So I’ve been super bummed to lose access to this. What I have watched wasn’t nearly as good of coverage. Cedric isn’t Rob and Elliot. Can’t make up for losing the voice/s of our sport either. Lots of stupid counterproductive decisions have been made here in my opinion. Decisions that hurt our sport. Not help it unfortunately. And our industry is hurting right now. Big time. We’ve lost 6 bike shops in GA in the last 12 to 14 months. Like I said, I get more for less with an arguably a more exciting and extensive race season in Supercross and Motorcross. It’s definitely not monthly fees. But that said I’m still bummed because I truly love our sport and I love DH racing and all the incredible things it does for our sport. It’s almost like football for title 9 in high school and college—huge funding and technology for all the other sports—huge development opportunities for riders and bike companies. Often we see top down technology development on mountain bikes because DH bikes are pushed so much harder. These things could be negatively impacted as well. But more eyes and stoke on racing hopefully helps create more stoke to go ride bikes. Because that is what our industry needs right now. People’s jobs, businesses and livelihoods are ultimately on the line. And this could help out instead of exacerbating the situation is my point.
So, surely, if you love DH that much and want the top racers on good salaries and want to see trickle down to other bikes etc... then you just stump up the streaming fees? $150 a year ain't that bad. It's a crap deal compared to what we had with RBTV, but if you are a fan who wants to see the sport grow more then surely you stump up the cash? That's what I did. $60 for GCN+
Looks to me like a lot of people want a free streaming service and 200 privateers entered in World Cups aswell as Bruni, Holl etc.. all banking million dollar prize money. Can't see how all these things add up?
On a different note, if I'm not mistaken the uci MTB world series removed all of their socially posts about the max streaming news. I guess after a bunch of negative comments they received the message.
What is the data that you're referring to that shows an increase in viewership? Genuinely curious, as I've seen many fans mention they didn't pay to...
What is the data that you're referring to that shows an increase in viewership? Genuinely curious, as I've seen many fans mention they didn't pay to watch live racing, but ate up all the free YouTube content and highlight videos. That would coincide with the pb article, but doesn't mean the actual, live race numbers are better than RBs numbers.
I don't watch much of the web content, outside of Vital raw, but I did pay for gcn+ for watching the live dh/xc races. My 2 brothers did not, but watched a ton of the free content and highlights vids. More eyes on web content, but on the other side of the coin, they really lost 2 race viewers.
All that aside, if I can't access the live stuff via VPN, I'm going to be watching the highlights videos as I more than likely won't be paying for Max and the add-on, as I don't care about what they have to offer, other than the MTB stuff.
The data is in the article linked in the original post I quoted and I mentioned a specific example. Not sure what more you need?
The article linked referenced YT figures, so I kept my argument there. I have heard discussed the live viewing figures for XC and DH were close to RBTV figures, with the exception that sometimes (when certain road cycling races were on air) that XC figures shot through the roof. No data availbe for public consumption sadly
The data is in the article linked in the original post I quoted and I mentioned a specific example. Not sure what more you need?
The...
The data is in the article linked in the original post I quoted and I mentioned a specific example. Not sure what more you need?
The article linked referenced YT figures, so I kept my argument there. I have heard discussed the live viewing figures for XC and DH were close to RBTV figures, with the exception that sometimes (when certain road cycling races were on air) that XC figures shot through the roof. No data availbe for public consumption sadly
That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss an actual race viewership data article somewhere. Thanks.
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage, i'd be skeptical of live viewing numbers from 2023 matching 2022 and earlier. BUT neither red bull nor gcn/disco/wbd share those viewing stats, and maybe it's a USA-specific thing i'm hearing about. maybe the bulk of views come from other countries where people watched both seasons/platforms more equally.
with that said, the "red bull years" can still be watched, free online. https://www.redbull.com/int-en/live/uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-2022-le… - this probably doesn't account for too many new views once the race is over, but it's a product that continues to live on and gives value to those who sponsored/supported the events. i paid for gcn last year and when it goes extinct in a few days, it's likely i'll never be able to watch those 2023 races again unless they decide to make them available for free somewhere else.
i agree with what @smelly said a page back, it's not the money, it's who's benefitting from the money. (his quote below)
"I actually don’t mind paying $10 or $20 a month as I like to watch races while riding the trainer/rollers, so more racing means I’d spend more time training. And I reckon most of us would be down to pay IF it meant more money for the riders - but it doesn’t, it just fills the WB larders. "
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage...
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage, i'd be skeptical of live viewing numbers from 2023 matching 2022 and earlier. BUT neither red bull nor gcn/disco/wbd share those viewing stats, and maybe it's a USA-specific thing i'm hearing about. maybe the bulk of views come from other countries where people watched both seasons/platforms more equally.
with that said, the "red bull years" can still be watched, free online. https://www.redbull.com/int-en/live/uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-2022-le… - this probably doesn't account for too many new views once the race is over, but it's a product that continues to live on and gives value to those who sponsored/supported the events. i paid for gcn last year and when it goes extinct in a few days, it's likely i'll never be able to watch those 2023 races again unless they decide to make them available for free somewhere else.
i agree with what @smelly said a page back, it's not the money, it's who's benefitting from the money. (his quote below)
"I actually don’t mind paying $10 or $20 a month as I like to watch races while riding the trainer/rollers, so more racing means I’d spend more time training. And I reckon most of us would be down to pay IF it meant more money for the riders - but it doesn’t, it just fills the WB larders. "
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams and riders. Not tuning in however, certainly will in the medium term affect teams and riders. To the point where there just won't be a professional series in 5-8 years?
The riders make cash off of Youtube content, but that is because Youtube leverage hours of advertising during that content. So when I tune in to that stuff, my time wasted watching ads is paying the riders etc..
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams...
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams and riders. Not tuning in however, certainly will in the medium term affect teams and riders. To the point where there just won't be a professional series in 5-8 years?
The riders make cash off of Youtube content, but that is because Youtube leverage hours of advertising during that content. So when I tune in to that stuff, my time wasted watching ads is paying the riders etc..
agreed, but more money from subscription fees and team entry fees to UCI/WBD has made viewing more challenging and a lot of racers/team managers explained that last year provided a less valuable experience on site w/ pit space, access etc. to me those aren't benefits.
we have not heard what the race-day product will actually look like next year (# of racers, format etc). if it's limited pro field (top 30 men and top 10 women only in finals), i won't subscribe. i love downhill racing, vital will continue to sink tens of thousands of dollars into having lawlor and jack cover it as they're allowed. but personally and as a fan, i don't want to put money into a streaming service that i'd never get otherwise.
if world cup DH tanks because of viewership, i think there will be professional series in the future, just may not be UCI-based races.
Well according to Josh Carlson there are millions of new viewers. I'm not sure what he was smoking when he made that claim though.
In WB/Discovery's defence, we would never have had that "She said f*cking" moment without their involvement. Without doubt the highlight of the year as far as the interviews/commentary was concerned. Although getting Tahnee's name wrong and asking Nina if she'd be wearing the rainbow stripes in the bar that night both deserve honourable mentions.
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage...
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage, i'd be skeptical of live viewing numbers from 2023 matching 2022 and earlier. BUT neither red bull nor gcn/disco/wbd share those viewing stats, and maybe it's a USA-specific thing i'm hearing about. maybe the bulk of views come from other countries where people watched both seasons/platforms more equally.
with that said, the "red bull years" can still be watched, free online. https://www.redbull.com/int-en/live/uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-2022-le… - this probably doesn't account for too many new views once the race is over, but it's a product that continues to live on and gives value to those who sponsored/supported the events. i paid for gcn last year and when it goes extinct in a few days, it's likely i'll never be able to watch those 2023 races again unless they decide to make them available for free somewhere else.
i agree with what @smelly said a page back, it's not the money, it's who's benefitting from the money. (his quote below)
"I actually don’t mind paying $10 or $20 a month as I like to watch races while riding the trainer/rollers, so more racing means I’d spend more time training. And I reckon most of us would be down to pay IF it meant more money for the riders - but it doesn’t, it just fills the WB larders. "
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams...
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams and riders. Not tuning in however, certainly will in the medium term affect teams and riders. To the point where there just won't be a professional series in 5-8 years?
The riders make cash off of Youtube content, but that is because Youtube leverage hours of advertising during that content. So when I tune in to that stuff, my time wasted watching ads is paying the riders etc..
Seeing as viewing still appears to be very cheap and accessible for Europeans this upcoming season, I don't think the UCI series will tank in the foreseeable future. I could see the majority of North American brands pulling back most of, if not all, of their support in the near future, but the big ones would still provide at least product through their European distributors. If that happens, I would love to see those brands redirect their support to funding grassroots events and trail work/advocacy in North America. I'd much rather buy from a brand that is getting more trail built and strengthening local communities than pay for a few people to race in Europe.
I will preface that none of these comments are directed at any specific people in this forum or others, these are my observations based on riding all year, vital, PB, etc.
I think it became trendy to hate on the new DH coverage, don't get me wrong there were problems but I felt MSA coverage this year was much better than redbulltv's of MSA last year. I also think there is this weird idea that gained traction in which people are saying that the UCI are trying to kill downhill and things of that nature. I really don't think the people running the show are specifically trying to end DH racing otherwise when they purchased rights to it they could have just shut it down right then and there.
I don't think the argument of money going back to the riders will ever end, although I do believe more money needs to go back to prize money etc. in downhill. UFC for example has a similar problem in which people are complaining about fighter pay even though it is a billion dollar company and many athletes are well taken care of, many, not all. And they run off of an expensive pay-per-view still.
Also I guess a question to answer would be what is the ideal state for downhill? If it ends up like F1, riders will be closed off from the public, multimillion dollar teams will run the show, making it less accessible to race, but more accessible to watch. Do people want that, or a balance in between? I think maybe a lot of these conversations would be a little different if there was a clear 5-10 year plan that everyone could read and discuss.
I would maybe note in conclusion that I think it is a somewhat odd statement for some to talk so much about "needing" Rob Warner to make watching Downhill good. By nature of the argument, if redbulltv didn't have rob wouldn't that coverage also be bad. I think that a commentator can help to curate emotions and reactions as well as to provide useful information, but to claim that without a specific commentator then its not worth watching says a lot about how exciting the live feed actually is. And if we want the sport to grow, we need Ric explaining what sag is and what a dual crown fork is in layman's terms to viewers that are new and may not even ride MTB(even though it might seem cringe to us). I usually don't comment but I am just a little disheartened about all the negativity that I have seen regarding Elite DH racing this year, which is one of the most insanely awesome sports there is.
Sorry to change the subject, but does anyone know if there is a 2024 USDH National series? With the announcement of the 2024 US Open and the Tennessee National both having dates you'd think it would be public. I know last year there was a 3 race series, however I don't think it was points paying and I'm pretty sure no overall series awards were handed out. I've heard rumors of Mammoth and Rock Creek also hosting National Series races in 24'.
It will likely all end up on Flosports... Since the original email from GCN+ some of the Cyclocross content (X20 and Exact Cross) that was exclusive to GCN+ in Canada is now available on Flosports. If that is the case it is good news bad news, good news being all your cycling content is available on one platform... Flosports already had the Canadian rights to all the grand tours, the world championships in all disciplines, so adding MTB and the other half off GCN is a win for the subscriber. Bad news is while CGN+ was $60 annually Flosports is quite expensive and they only offer annual memberships. They sell it on $12/per month USD but hit your card for the full year, with the exchange rate that Visa charges its over $200 CAD pre year. With Flosports you can enjoy other niche sports such as Bowling, Rodeo, Team Cheerleading, Fitness, Singing and more...
Yeah I got sucked into Flo before and never again. I do like to watch all the cross races over the holiday season but Flo just used the local feed with Dutch announcers. No option to change to English.
Well we're just racking up the positives! they have added english commentary with J-Pow (seemingly moving over from GCN+ as well). Pre and Post race interviews are still in Flemish Dutch... UCI World Cups are still the Eurosport feed (i think) and in english.
Makes perfect sense. A year after all time low viewership and an industry that is hurting badly; let's make it harder for people to view the sport. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and logical thing to do right now. Don't bring the sport to more people and eyeballs when we need more people riding bikes.....that could potentially help save businesses and continuing to progressing our sport through racing. Seems a lot like government unfortunately. Short-sightedness and doing some ass backwards shit that doesn't help our sport it only further erodes it. As a core racing fan, I sat out last year because of the fees. Bummed they didn't learn from the super low viewership last year but I guess all they are seeing is $$$. I have my Supercross and Motocross pass -- and I get more racing and excitement for less money with year round access from them. And Dakar and Supercross are just around the corner.
"A year after all time low viewership" reference?
The elite semi-finals have pulled in 574,432 viewers so far this year with a big drop to 304,076 views for junior racing. The numbers get eve.....
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nerding-out-are-more-people-watching-worl…
For those considering splitting up an account.
MAX Standard allows 5 user profiles, 2* of which can stream simultaneously. And although I can't find any information that would suggest the B/R ad-on would be any different...I am highly suspicious that it would make anything better.
Edit was because simultaneous streaming is 2, not 3. Because of course it is.
It's official, ESO/Discovery don't care about mountain biking at all. All the care about is locking it behind a paywall in one of their sports packages.
This is the exact opposite of growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. This will convince cycling companies to cut their spending in mountain biking across all disciplines. Why continue sponsorship if viewership and access to the sport is being cut? Is there any return on the investment for sponsors?
bunch of crap
If you can wait for the replay to come up on Tiz it streams way better, no need to keep refreshing.
Don't think it has anything to do with "caring". Warner Bros Discovery TV side of things will call the shots on what gets broadcast where. WBDsports, which now includes ESO probably have very little say in how the TV product gets aired. Nature of the beast and all that.
It's a real shame 2024 season won't be on the one streaming platform worldwide. MTB is not big enough for viewers to have to search out a single provider in each territory. Nightmare stuff.
Those figures are Youtube only. And much of the data shows an increase in viewership in 2023, so the exact opposite of your point. For example, DH Finals highlights in 2023 on the WDB channels was almost triple of the 2019 RB bike figures. So yeah, you are smoking something?
Warner/Discovery/ESO talked big about growing the sport and bringing in outside sponsors. Their actions have done the exact opposite. Restricting coverage behind a paywall decreases viewership, making the return on investment for sponsors lower. Even F1 lost viewership when it went behind a paywall and it is a much bigger sport than mountain biking.
Why would a company outside mountain biking spend money on a race team that is getting little to no visibility. At the same time they are increasing team fees, IIRC they more than doubled last year and are increasing again for 2024.
ESO is only interested in creating a sports viewing monopoly and doesn't care if they kill the sport as long as they are the only one profiting from it.
I'm not debating WDB sports motivations or even actions. Simply saying that with a broadcast company as massive as WBD, the people behind running and promoting the UCI world cup series will have ZERO say in where the races get broadcast in different territories.
WBD won't be making a special streaming platform just for MTB, so sadly we'll just get whatever shit we are given.
Sorry Mr. Nally but there have been multiple Pinkbike articles that have brought up this point in recent months. I just grabbed the first one that popped in my google search since someone asked. Everyone in the comments has similar feelings and thoughts about the effects of these decisions. I know just about everyone I speak with in my shop/community has said they stopped viewing last year because of the pay to play model. The comments here seem to support that as well... I love DH racing and have followed and watched just about every race since 2006 up until last year. So I’ve been super bummed to lose access to this. What I have watched wasn’t nearly as good of coverage. Cedric isn’t Rob and Elliot. Can’t make up for losing the voice/s of our sport either. Lots of stupid counterproductive decisions have been made here in my opinion. Decisions that hurt our sport. Not help it unfortunately. And our industry is hurting right now. Big time. We’ve lost 6 bike shops in GA in the last 12 to 14 months. Like I said, I get more for less with an arguably a more exciting and extensive race season in Supercross and Motorcross. It’s definitely not monthly fees. But that said I’m still bummed because I truly love our sport and I love DH racing and all the incredible things it does for our sport. It’s almost like football for title 9 in high school and college—huge funding and technology for all the other sports—huge development opportunities for riders and bike companies. Often we see top down technology development on mountain bikes because DH bikes are pushed so much harder. These things could be negatively impacted as well. But more eyes and stoke on racing hopefully helps create more stoke to go ride bikes. Because that is what our industry needs right now. People’s jobs, businesses and livelihoods are ultimately on the line. And this could help out instead of exacerbating the situation is my point.
What is the data that you're referring to that shows an increase in viewership? Genuinely curious, as I've seen many fans mention they didn't pay to watch live racing, but ate up all the free YouTube content and highlight videos. That would coincide with the pb article, but doesn't mean the actual, live race numbers are better than RBs numbers.
I don't watch much of the web content, outside of Vital raw, but I did pay for gcn+ for watching the live dh/xc races. My 2 brothers did not, but watched a ton of the free content and highlights vids. More eyes on web content, but on the other side of the coin, they really lost 2 race viewers.
All that aside, if I can't access the live stuff via VPN, I'm going to be watching the highlights videos as I more than likely won't be paying for Max and the add-on, as I don't care about what they have to offer, other than the MTB stuff.
So I need to pay $20 a month for a streaming service id otherwise have no interest in to watch 7 races, some of which are a month apart. Just to put into perspective I pay $6 for peacock and I get almost 30 races of Supercross/Motocross, Sunday night football, and some good shows/movies.
Let’s also not forget through all of this we still won’t be able to watch World Championships unless those rights have changed hands 🤬
We use our neighbor's HBO through our Roku.
It's got FIVE users for streaming.
I think the answer is to check how many people can stream simultaneously on one Max account if you're only purchasing their streaming option as opposed to having HBO through cable/satelitte.
Then VENMO a buddy for the year.
So, surely, if you love DH that much and want the top racers on good salaries and want to see trickle down to other bikes etc... then you just stump up the streaming fees? $150 a year ain't that bad. It's a crap deal compared to what we had with RBTV, but if you are a fan who wants to see the sport grow more then surely you stump up the cash? That's what I did. $60 for GCN+
Looks to me like a lot of people want a free streaming service and 200 privateers entered in World Cups aswell as Bruni, Holl etc.. all banking million dollar prize money. Can't see how all these things add up?
On a different note, if I'm not mistaken the uci MTB world series removed all of their socially posts about the max streaming news. I guess after a bunch of negative comments they received the message.
The data is in the article linked in the original post I quoted and I mentioned a specific example. Not sure what more you need?
The article linked referenced YT figures, so I kept my argument there. I have heard discussed the live viewing figures for XC and DH were close to RBTV figures, with the exception that sometimes (when certain road cycling races were on air) that XC figures shot through the roof. No data availbe for public consumption sadly
That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss an actual race viewership data article somewhere. Thanks.
similar to what @Fresh Bike Service, Inc. says, purely based on the countless anecdotal cases i've heard of people not tuning into 2023 live race footage, i'd be skeptical of live viewing numbers from 2023 matching 2022 and earlier. BUT neither red bull nor gcn/disco/wbd share those viewing stats, and maybe it's a USA-specific thing i'm hearing about. maybe the bulk of views come from other countries where people watched both seasons/platforms more equally.
with that said, the "red bull years" can still be watched, free online. https://www.redbull.com/int-en/live/uci-mountain-bike-world-cup-2022-le… - this probably doesn't account for too many new views once the race is over, but it's a product that continues to live on and gives value to those who sponsored/supported the events. i paid for gcn last year and when it goes extinct in a few days, it's likely i'll never be able to watch those 2023 races again unless they decide to make them available for free somewhere else.
i agree with what @smelly said a page back, it's not the money, it's who's benefitting from the money. (his quote below)
"I actually don’t mind paying $10 or $20 a month as I like to watch races while riding the trainer/rollers, so more racing means I’d spend more time training. And I reckon most of us would be down to pay IF it meant more money for the riders - but it doesn’t, it just fills the WB larders. "
I don't see it as a zero sum game though. Just because the $$$ from your subscription go to WDB, doesn't mean it doesn't benefit teams and riders. Not tuning in however, certainly will in the medium term affect teams and riders. To the point where there just won't be a professional series in 5-8 years?
The riders make cash off of Youtube content, but that is because Youtube leverage hours of advertising during that content. So when I tune in to that stuff, my time wasted watching ads is paying the riders etc..
agreed, but more money from subscription fees and team entry fees to UCI/WBD has made viewing more challenging and a lot of racers/team managers explained that last year provided a less valuable experience on site w/ pit space, access etc. to me those aren't benefits.
we have not heard what the race-day product will actually look like next year (# of racers, format etc). if it's limited pro field (top 30 men and top 10 women only in finals), i won't subscribe. i love downhill racing, vital will continue to sink tens of thousands of dollars into having lawlor and jack cover it as they're allowed. but personally and as a fan, i don't want to put money into a streaming service that i'd never get otherwise.
if world cup DH tanks because of viewership, i think there will be professional series in the future, just may not be UCI-based races.
Well according to Josh Carlson there are millions of new viewers. I'm not sure what he was smoking when he made that claim though.
In WB/Discovery's defence, we would never have had that "She said f*cking" moment without their involvement. Without doubt the highlight of the year as far as the interviews/commentary was concerned. Although getting Tahnee's name wrong and asking Nina if she'd be wearing the rainbow stripes in the bar that night both deserve honourable mentions.
Seeing as viewing still appears to be very cheap and accessible for Europeans this upcoming season, I don't think the UCI series will tank in the foreseeable future. I could see the majority of North American brands pulling back most of, if not all, of their support in the near future, but the big ones would still provide at least product through their European distributors. If that happens, I would love to see those brands redirect their support to funding grassroots events and trail work/advocacy in North America. I'd much rather buy from a brand that is getting more trail built and strengthening local communities than pay for a few people to race in Europe.
I will preface that none of these comments are directed at any specific people in this forum or others, these are my observations based on riding all year, vital, PB, etc.
I think it became trendy to hate on the new DH coverage, don't get me wrong there were problems but I felt MSA coverage this year was much better than redbulltv's of MSA last year. I also think there is this weird idea that gained traction in which people are saying that the UCI are trying to kill downhill and things of that nature. I really don't think the people running the show are specifically trying to end DH racing otherwise when they purchased rights to it they could have just shut it down right then and there.
I don't think the argument of money going back to the riders will ever end, although I do believe more money needs to go back to prize money etc. in downhill. UFC for example has a similar problem in which people are complaining about fighter pay even though it is a billion dollar company and many athletes are well taken care of, many, not all. And they run off of an expensive pay-per-view still.
Also I guess a question to answer would be what is the ideal state for downhill? If it ends up like F1, riders will be closed off from the public, multimillion dollar teams will run the show, making it less accessible to race, but more accessible to watch. Do people want that, or a balance in between? I think maybe a lot of these conversations would be a little different if there was a clear 5-10 year plan that everyone could read and discuss.
I would maybe note in conclusion that I think it is a somewhat odd statement for some to talk so much about "needing" Rob Warner to make watching Downhill good. By nature of the argument, if redbulltv didn't have rob wouldn't that coverage also be bad. I think that a commentator can help to curate emotions and reactions as well as to provide useful information, but to claim that without a specific commentator then its not worth watching says a lot about how exciting the live feed actually is. And if we want the sport to grow, we need Ric explaining what sag is and what a dual crown fork is in layman's terms to viewers that are new and may not even ride MTB(even though it might seem cringe to us). I usually don't comment but I am just a little disheartened about all the negativity that I have seen regarding Elite DH racing this year, which is one of the most insanely awesome sports there is.
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