Shame effigear can't get their act together. I genuinely think it's a better design; no double seal needed for concentric output, no overdrive, etc means out of the box there is a huge potential for efficiency gains, not to mention the removal of an idler.
Spotted an interesting DH bike in Verbier today, gearbox, high pivot and the rider was wearing what looks a Whyte Bikes t-shirt
Spotted an interesting DH bike in Verbier today, gearbox, high pivot and the rider was wearing what looks a Whyte Bikes t-shirt
Frame looks like a bonded aluminum construction similar to what Frameworks was playing around with. That headtube looks familiar but can’t I remember where I’ve seen it.
Frame looks like a bonded aluminum construction similar to what Frameworks was playing around with. That headtube looks familiar but can’t I remember where I’ve seen...
Frame looks like a bonded aluminum construction similar to what Frameworks was playing around with. That headtube looks familiar but can’t I remember where I’ve seen it.
Faction bike studio products?
@hamncheez2003 Effigear needs the output ring to be driven forward relative to the pedals to release the mechanism and be able to shift. With a rear freehub, you actually need to backpedal to be able to shift, not only lower the power output.
Faction bike studio products?@hamncheez2003 Effigear needs the output ring to be driven forward relative to the pedals to release the mechanism and be able to...
Faction bike studio products?
@hamncheez2003 Effigear needs the output ring to be driven forward relative to the pedals to release the mechanism and be able to shift. With a rear freehub, you actually need to backpedal to be able to shift, not only lower the power output.
That can/should be changed.
All reviews I've seen of the effigear, it's not that great. I'm saying that their layout has the potential to be much more efficient than a Pinion + idler pulley. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pinion works with 4 gears plus 3 overdrives; that's four potential stages of efficiency loss, plus the seals required for concentric output adds a ton of drag too.
PS: YET ANOTHER source of drag is that all gears are always at least partially engaged at all times, so even though most of the gears are not connected to an output path they still spin. For both Pinion and Effigear. This makes a measurable difference to our 1/4 horsepower legs. I'd imagine it would be easier to implement a dual selector design on the Effigear layout, such that only the engaged gears would spin.
All this gearbox talk has me thinking about all the ones that didn’t take off ~Graduation (Friends forever) by Vitamin C plays ~ I also wonder what a...
All this gearbox talk has me thinking about all the ones that didn’t take off
~Graduation (Friends forever) by Vitamin C plays ~
I also wonder what a new look at either setup could yield
I think this was brought up a few pages back, or maybe in the Demo forum? Cesar Rojo and Shimano have the necessary patents for this. Maybe Cesar implements it on an Unno?
Would also love to see this modernized. I’ve always thought 2 small cassette clusters in series could give you the range and close jumps while only driving a one set of cogs at a time. Use the Demo output shaft method and the form factor could be pretty small.
Hard to imagine that setup getting small enough to be practical. As it is, there would be pretty significant constraints on suspension design to work around that. Could you imagine that at last year's Les Gets DH race? I guess you could try to box it in to try to keep mud out. Hard to see this being a better option than Pinion.
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still remember this piece from MBAction
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of my proudest work so far:
"Imagine starting your ride, rolling into the terrain on large 32″ wheels, and immediately feeling it: the handling is on point. Every steering input feels controlled, stable, and precise. That’s exactly why we developed this MTB stem specifically for bikes with 32″ wheels – tailored to the unique demands of a modern 32" setup."
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still...
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still remember this piece from MBAction
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of...
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of my proudest work so far:
"Imagine starting your ride, rolling into the terrain on large 32″ wheels, and immediately feeling it: the handling is on point. Every steering input feels controlled, stable, and precise. That’s exactly why we developed this MTB stem specifically for bikes with 32″ wheels – tailored to the unique demands of a modern 32" setup."
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still...
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still remember this piece from MBAction
Surely that patent has expired by now if it was purchased by Hayes in 2004?
Exactly, the argument of "der-in-a-box didn't get traction because The Industry™ won't allow us to have nice things" has been buried side by side with these patents for a long time.
Weight is still the main deterrent for massive gearbox adoption IMHO.
Pinion uses a 3xX layout where the X is either 3, 4 or 6 gear pairs depending on the total number of gears in the box. Effigear uses a gear pair to switch rotation then the 9 gear pairs to give the 9 output gears.
They started with the "remote output" layout but they claim they can adapt it (the three shafts can be in line or in a triangle to lower the crank to output distance), but lately it's mostly been concentric like Pinion.
For any derailleur in a box gearbox to have any chance at a decent range, you need two cassettes back to back to make it compact enough. Two 11 to 25 t cassettes are a good option.
The more i think about it the more appealing does thos whole shifting while coasting on the gearbox sound to me.
I know there was some solutions for the cranks where you could basically achieve the same on a derailleursetup but this stuff didnt really take off, no? I know intend had something and wrp aswdll but very very expensive.
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of...
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of my proudest work so far:
"Imagine starting your ride, rolling into the terrain on large 32″ wheels, and immediately feeling it: the handling is on point. Every steering input feels controlled, stable, and precise. That’s exactly why we developed this MTB stem specifically for bikes with 32″ wheels – tailored to the unique demands of a modern 32" setup."
Just imagine it.
Every once in a while, a little bit of the old Robot sneaks in, and I’m so here for it.
especially that blue hardtail... super slack effective seat angle.I don't have the visual cues to work out what size those bikes are, but taller people (their...
especially that blue hardtail... super slack effective seat angle.
I don't have the visual cues to work out what size those bikes are, but taller people (their intended market) are going to struggle on that arent they?
That's just the reality of 32" bikes - geometry is always going to be compromised on any sort of normal frame size.
I would assume that they take that in consideration. Think about Trek what you will, but it’s also not their first bike they making (ok, it’s...
I would assume that they take that in consideration. Think about Trek what you will, but it’s also not their first bike they making (ok, it’s the first 32”) but surely to goodness, they get the geometry fairly dialed, and not repeat the geometry challenges we had with the first 29ers. Time will tell.
That's one thing I've wondered about... Will the 32in development curve look like the 29 or will we get to a sweet spot quicker? I think...
That's one thing I've wondered about... Will the 32in development curve look like the 29 or will we get to a sweet spot quicker? I think a lot of time was spent trying to make 29ers ride like a 26 as opposed to playing into the strengths of the 29.. 27.5 lurking in the background probably didn't help much...
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot to mainly focusing on 29" again.
I know of at least two somewhat major bike brands who are fully convinced that 32" wheels will not become mainstream in the mid-/ long term. They're of the opinion that 32" wheels will stick around for roughly 3-5 years before they no longer sell in any sort of profitable quantity and then go the way of 650B-Plus - that is to say, slowly die out except in small niche markets like for example bike-packing.
I can already see the stacks of marketing copy in which the wider bike industry tries to put a positive spin on this desaster. Something about how only by trying out 32", they could truly understand that 29" was the optimal mainstream wheel size all along, or what ever.
No Session full builds showing on the Trek website makes me think the new model is ready to go. I wonder if they're holding out for a big world cup result from TFR before they pull the trigger?
No Session full builds showing on the Trek website makes me think the new model is ready to go. I wonder if they're holding out for...
No Session full builds showing on the Trek website makes me think the new model is ready to go. I wonder if they're holding out for a big world cup result from TFR before they pull the trigger?
In this economy?
Imagine being the guy pushing for that in the meeting! I’m a fan of the salmon smoothie squad but they may not see another podium this year.
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot...
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot to mainly focusing on 29" again.
I know of at least two somewhat major bike brands who are fully convinced that 32" wheels will not become mainstream in the mid-/ long term. They're of the opinion that 32" wheels will stick around for roughly 3-5 years before they no longer sell in any sort of profitable quantity and then go the way of 650B-Plus - that is to say, slowly die out except in small niche markets like for example bike-packing.
I can already see the stacks of marketing copy in which the wider bike industry tries to put a positive spin on this desaster. Something about how only by trying out 32", they could truly understand that 29" was the optimal mainstream wheel size all along, or what ever.
Sometimes you have to go too far to know that you’ve gone too far enough.
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot...
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot to mainly focusing on 29" again.
I know of at least two somewhat major bike brands who are fully convinced that 32" wheels will not become mainstream in the mid-/ long term. They're of the opinion that 32" wheels will stick around for roughly 3-5 years before they no longer sell in any sort of profitable quantity and then go the way of 650B-Plus - that is to say, slowly die out except in small niche markets like for example bike-packing.
I can already see the stacks of marketing copy in which the wider bike industry tries to put a positive spin on this desaster. Something about how only by trying out 32", they could truly understand that 29" was the optimal mainstream wheel size all along, or what ever.
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still...
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still remember this piece from MBAction
Yes, they did. My understanding is that there were a number of technical hurdles that made the design not viable. Chain articulation and side deflection made shifting sloppy/hesitant due to chain wrap, similar issue as on the Lal Supre drive rigs. Gear range was limited due to the chain issues and available range due to space constraints. It would shift, but the quality and speed of the shift was lacking.
The more i think about it the more appealing does thos whole shifting while coasting on the gearbox sound to me.I know there was some solutions...
The more i think about it the more appealing does thos whole shifting while coasting on the gearbox sound to me.
I know there was some solutions for the cranks where you could basically achieve the same on a derailleursetup but this stuff didnt really take off, no? I know intend had something and wrp aswdll but very very expensive.
What all of those solutions miss out on is that a gearbox has consistent chain-line across all the gears. That allows you to rip technical decent with heavy braking while in 1st gear without having to deal with heinous chaingrowth/pedal kick.
Not to derail with ebike talk but I have used the Avinox auto shift feature which in practice functions pretty similar to the intend/wrp stuff and it’s still really nice to have
Welcome to the thread.
Definitely a Whyte logo, could conceivably be mr Joe Barnes himself. Bike has the very specialized-esque four bar Whyte uses.
Shame effigear can't get their act together. I genuinely think it's a better design; no double seal needed for concentric output, no overdrive, etc means out of the box there is a huge potential for efficiency gains, not to mention the removal of an idler.
Touché
Frame looks like a bonded aluminum construction similar to what Frameworks was playing around with. That headtube looks familiar but can’t I remember where I’ve seen it.
Faction bike studio products?
@hamncheez2003 Effigear needs the output ring to be driven forward relative to the pedals to release the mechanism and be able to shift. With a rear freehub, you actually need to backpedal to be able to shift, not only lower the power output.
That can/should be changed.
All reviews I've seen of the effigear, it's not that great. I'm saying that their layout has the potential to be much more efficient than a Pinion + idler pulley. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pinion works with 4 gears plus 3 overdrives; that's four potential stages of efficiency loss, plus the seals required for concentric output adds a ton of drag too.
PS: YET ANOTHER source of drag is that all gears are always at least partially engaged at all times, so even though most of the gears are not connected to an output path they still spin. For both Pinion and Effigear. This makes a measurable difference to our 1/4 horsepower legs. I'd imagine it would be easier to implement a dual selector design on the Effigear layout, such that only the engaged gears would spin.
All this gearbox talk has me thinking about all the ones that didn’t take off
~Graduation (Friends forever) by Vitamin C plays ~
I also wonder what a new look at either setup could yield
I think this was brought up a few pages back, or maybe in the Demo forum? Cesar Rojo and Shimano have the necessary patents for this. Maybe Cesar implements it on an Unno?
Would also love to see this modernized. I’ve always thought 2 small cassette clusters in series could give you the range and close jumps while only driving a one set of cogs at a time. Use the Demo output shaft method and the form factor could be pretty small.
20 years later, everything is getting re-invented again
Patent link - https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/48/70/fb/31993667ee2adb/WO2007121690A1.pdf
WRP were still plugging away at the derailleur in a can concept last year but who knows where it falls on their list of priorities, guy seems to have a million good ideas and no time to get them all out https://www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/sea-otter-2025-day-1-part-1/wi…
Hard to imagine that setup getting small enough to be practical. As it is, there would be pretty significant constraints on suspension design to work around that. Could you imagine that at last year's Les Gets DH race? I guess you could try to box it in to try to keep mud out. Hard to see this being a better option than Pinion.
Aftermarket hardware to support 32" XC bikes starting to show up:
https://shop.radoxx.de/en/Stem-XC-32/StemXC32
Didn't Hayes buy the patent for the PeteSpeed (horrible name BTW) derailleur-in-a-can variant from Be One and then bury it in a drawer somewhere? I still remember this piece from MBAction
https://mbaction.com/hayes-to-market-chain-driven-gearbox-system-oct-5/
I'm glad you mentioned that product! I've been moonlighting as a copywriter in my free time, and working on that stem project has been some of my proudest work so far:
"Imagine starting your ride, rolling into the terrain on large 32″ wheels, and immediately feeling it: the handling is on point. Every steering input feels controlled, stable, and precise. That’s exactly why we developed this MTB stem specifically for bikes with 32″ wheels – tailored to the unique demands of a modern 32" setup."
Just imagine it.
Surely that patent has expired by now if it was purchased by Hayes in 2004?
Imagining intensifies.
Exactly, the argument of "der-in-a-box didn't get traction because The Industry™ won't allow us to have nice things" has been buried side by side with these patents for a long time.
Weight is still the main deterrent for massive gearbox adoption IMHO.
Pinion uses a 3xX layout where the X is either 3, 4 or 6 gear pairs depending on the total number of gears in the box. Effigear uses a gear pair to switch rotation then the 9 gear pairs to give the 9 output gears.
They started with the "remote output" layout but they claim they can adapt it (the three shafts can be in line or in a triangle to lower the crank to output distance), but lately it's mostly been concentric like Pinion.
For any derailleur in a box gearbox to have any chance at a decent range, you need two cassettes back to back to make it compact enough. Two 11 to 25 t cassettes are a good option.
The more i think about it the more appealing does thos whole shifting while coasting on the gearbox sound to me.
I know there was some solutions for the cranks where you could basically achieve the same on a derailleursetup but this stuff didnt really take off, no? I know intend had something and wrp aswdll but very very expensive.
Every once in a while, a little bit of the old Robot sneaks in, and I’m so here for it.
I read Team Robot before they sucked…
Also, new Blur https://youtu.be/uOYB46EMt9g?is=Yl5io8pa224iGkPO
That's just the reality of 32" bikes - geometry is always going to be compromised on any sort of normal frame size.
Honestly not sure the development curve for 32" wheeled bikes will reach sweet-spot geometry before the novelty wears off, interest dries up and brands will pivot to mainly focusing on 29" again.
I know of at least two somewhat major bike brands who are fully convinced that 32" wheels will not become mainstream in the mid-/ long term. They're of the opinion that 32" wheels will stick around for roughly 3-5 years before they no longer sell in any sort of profitable quantity and then go the way of 650B-Plus - that is to say, slowly die out except in small niche markets like for example bike-packing.
I can already see the stacks of marketing copy in which the wider bike industry tries to put a positive spin on this desaster. Something about how only by trying out 32", they could truly understand that 29" was the optimal mainstream wheel size all along, or what ever.
No Session full builds showing on the Trek website makes me think the new model is ready to go. I wonder if they're holding out for a big world cup result from TFR before they pull the trigger?
In this economy?
Imagine being the guy pushing for that in the meeting! I’m a fan of the salmon smoothie squad but they may not see another podium this year.
Sometimes you have to go too far to know that you’ve gone too far enough.
I’ll buy that bumper sticker.
Yes, they did. My understanding is that there were a number of technical hurdles that made the design not viable. Chain articulation and side deflection made shifting sloppy/hesitant due to chain wrap, similar issue as on the Lal Supre drive rigs. Gear range was limited due to the chain issues and available range due to space constraints. It would shift, but the quality and speed of the shift was lacking.
What all of those solutions miss out on is that a gearbox has consistent chain-line across all the gears. That allows you to rip technical decent with heavy braking while in 1st gear without having to deal with heinous chaingrowth/pedal kick.
Not to derail with ebike talk but I have used the Avinox auto shift feature which in practice functions pretty similar to the intend/wrp stuff and it’s still really nice to have
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