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90%+ of SRAM's (and Shimano's) sales are to OEMs, not Aftermarket/enthusiasts. So 90%+ of their direction in products is focused on OEM sales. Not guys on the VitalMTB forum, sadly.
WHAT!!
Then why are we posting here??
Yep. It’s gnarly. Total swingarm is about 4 lbs of aluminum.
CBF and I track is something I've been dying to try, hopefully this one doesn't have absurdly limited seat post insertion like the Vampire Bikes.
Just found black XX1 chains for $60
Can someone please stand up to I track? Their patent is bullshit and incomprehensible. Hate to see big brands and big names in suspension design bend to them.
I’m pretty sure the guy that has the I-track patent lets anyone use it as long as they put a sticker on the bike. What is bullshit about that? Genuinely curious.
You should also call out Canfield while you are at it. Patenting three holes in a frame or a variant of the Horst Link is as bogus as Tony Ellsworth's claims.
Don't hoard them.
SRAM PC XX1 Eagle Chain 12 Speed 126 Links Black W/ PowerLock – Bike Closet
What's incomprehensible about "idler goes on swingarm"?
Ya know, I'm changing my tune about 32" wheels. I don't really have all that much interest in owning a 32" bike, and I fully expect most, if not all of the first 32" bikes to not be in my wheelhouse... But right now, I'd kill for anything that isn't related to an ebike to read about. Never before have I yearned to digest some bike stuff that just involved the measly 250w that I struggle to put out.
So... bring on the 32" content please, I am primed and ready for it.
Because it's not just idler goes on swing arm, it's idler that is anywhere other than on main pivot or main triangle, ilder that moves at all with the linkage. It's a patent with like 40 different drawings, where nothing is identifiable or even looks like idler positions on bicycles. Honestly if it was as simple as idler goes on swing arm, I wouldn't have as big an issue with it but it is so broad, so poorly defined, and so poorly depicted in the patent, that the patent shouldn't have been granted in the first place. It's a patent that doesn't protect someone's innovation, but puts obvious ideas behind a pay wall and limits development.
Nah, I hope someone resurrects 26" wheels instead.
in scandal mag, jim bland, luca's mechanic, thinks 32" front wheels are coming (in what i would assume is DH since he's a DH mechanic). seems like it wouldn't be hard for any of the inverted brands to make a 32" fork for this upcoming season (assuming tires are available, which i bet they are). he also says cone valves in forks, so maybe some other hint development? #nonEbikeRumors
What variation of the Horst link do they have patented?
The one they use on the Vampire bikes? It's an idler/no idler thing, but it's still a Horst Link.
While acknowledging that, strictly, patents protect any exploitation of an idea, patent holders in general are usually interested in protecting their commercial interests and don't waste their time chasing every hobbyist who happens to be using the idea for something. It looks like insecurity. I can almost guarantee that if the guy had more than a single patent to his name, he wouldn't behave like that.
Gotta agree here. Maybe I'm oh so very special but as soon as the whole idler became a thing, literally the first thing that comes to mind is "let's try moving it around with the suspension", I think trying to patent that so broadly, even just by putting it on a chainstay and calling it something so unique to be patented sounds hard to respect.
Guess I was totally gonna design a bike and now I won't,thanks!
28th
is the fine sir interested in this bridge i have to sell?
Hard 2 year product cycle for that one. Feels like the 8 only just came out.
32" coming maybe?
No I can't handle all this Avinox garbage and a mainstream bike going to 32" in such close succession. Make it stop.
does cannondale have a patent on their fork leg system? Otherwise I don’t understand why other companies don’t use it on their inverted forks
Why would you make a bike that is literally actually slower than all of the other bikes that are coming out this year, when you could make a 32” bike?
I’m curious though, have we seen a 32” Sid?
Not sure what the patent situation is like with Cannondale's lefty forks, but they use needle bearings because they need them. Leftys only have one stanchion and they need something to prevent rotation, thus the needle bearings.
As for why not use it on conventional forks, it incredibly expensive compared to classic forks. While precisely grinding the insides and outsides of an aluminium tube is anything but easy I'd imagine, additionally grinding three (Ocho, previous Cannondale forks had four) flat surfaces that have to be smooth for the needle bearings and have a tight angular tolerance (as close to 120° clocking as possible) is much harder still. Add to that the fact that you need even more material to handle everything (the tube is not as nicely rounded, so you need extra material to keep the strength and to be able to machine it) it's likely also quite a bit heavier. This is not as much of a problem with the lefty which only has one stanchion, but it's add up on conventional forks.
Then problem number the two. Almost everybody trying out an USD fork not seeing an issue, plus Darren from @PUSH Industries explaining the mechanics in the podcast, it's clear USD forks don't really need to be more torsionally stiff. At least in 99 % of the time, all of the time. Yes, RSU forks are stiffer. Yes, adding needle roller bearings would make USD forks stiffer. But there's no need to complicate the product more, make it heavier and more expensive for essentially no gain.
As for iTrack and the discussion, it's not an idler on the swingarm. The patent specifically doesn't cover that. As long as your idler is on your front triangle (or mounted concentrically to a pivot point on the front triangle, which makes it the same thing kinematically) or on the swingarm if it's a single pivot design, you're safe. If it's mounted on any other suspension member, then it's covered by iTrack. Not sure if the wheel carrying member (seatstays of a regular horst link for example or a rear triangle of a VPP bike) is covered by iTrack or only intermediate members are covered, but yeah, single pivots are in the clear and front triangle mounting is in the clear.
As for stickers, if you're doing a DIY build and not selling bikes, you get a sticker. If you are selling bikes, you are getting an invoice.
As for patent covering idler positions only, I think that's also not true. I think a big part of the patent is also the calculation of the kinematics of the systems covered by the patent. I know Linkage incorporated AS calculations based off the iTrack patent for these types of suspension.
And I think Vampire bikes dosn't patent a horst link suspension per-se, it covers the multiple pivot points. I think the specifics are three pivot points on a straight line or an arc (which is basically any orientation three points can be in. I guess you could get around the patent by just adding another hole nobody would use that is neither on the line or on the arc and you got around the patent...
I always thought this Lefty demonstration was intriguing. I think the industry has different standards on fork flex these days, but I wanted to try a Lefty after watching this BITD.
Let’s also not forget all the wacky moves Aaron Chase used to do with one…
I'd be willing to bet a lot of money both forks were run dry. When you have rolling elements, that won't affect the demonstration much, it would affect the lifetime (which is not a problem here). It would on the other hand greatly affect the performance of a sliding bushing fork (i.e. the white one) if there's no oil in it.
You can also bet Cannondale's presentation was designed to showcase how much better THEIR product is. Have they mentioned anything how much harder it is to make it? How much effort they have to put into the design of the spring and damper which are in the same leg? How much more finicky it is to remove the front wheel? Etc.
Again Darren from @PUSH Industries mentioned in the other thread that one part of the reason USD forks are not as widely used as RSU forks are is wheel insertion. With an RSU fork the dropouts are where you need them. With an USD fork the lowers can freely rotate and you sometimes need to align the dropouts to be able to insert the wheel and axle. And that that is a negative to the average user.
Is that an absurd reason not use an USD fork? Sure. Did I go through hoops to make a custom modified (cut and rethreaded fatbike) Maxle ultimate for the back so I can have a QR Maxle axle in the rear of my UDH equipped bike (obviously also one in the front) because I can't be arsed to find a hex wrench to take off a wheel because that's how it's always been? You bet.
What Avinox pulled off is impressive engineering but I would have rather seen them stay in the 90-100 Nm Range and therefore make the motor smaller und lighter.
Having a Bosch CX4 bike myself (Canyon Strive:ON) I really don't miss more power but less weight would be really appreciated.
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