This is what companies want. You need a new bike bag, a higher price train ticket, a new car, and a new house for your new...
This is what companies want. You need a new bike bag, a higher price train ticket, a new car, and a new house for your new 32” bike. The Consumerism dream.
Be good if they put some effort into selling bikes to new people, rather than new bikes to existing riders. If the industry was a bit...
Be good if they put some effort into selling bikes to new people, rather than new bikes to existing riders. If the industry was a bit more outward looking and less self sabotaging, we would not be in the current slump. 32" wheels won't fix the market. Same with companies only focussing on high end, if everyone does it, nobody wins.
These are good posts and discussions for the bikeconomics thread. This thread, is about new technology rumors and new tech. Remember, no one forces you to...
These are good posts and discussions for the bikeconomics thread. This thread, is about new technology rumors and new tech. Remember, no one forces you to buy a new bike. The gear in this sport would be less interesting and not worth talking about if the prevailing notion was, "meh, we didn't develop this any further because it didn't fix the market and new riders don't care." Bikes used to be shite, but the sport was still fun. Now the sport is fun, and bikes aren't shite.
Indeed bikes are not shite, but they could be better in ways that are not 'faster' and everyone having the same innovation isn't innovation. I'm excited to see what comes in the pre Sea Otter rush for product releases.
Hopefully some more news soon on the Forbidden trail bike posted a while back, that thing looks ideal for my area.
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so low their chin is on the top cap? Maybe this won’t be an issue in practice but I’d like races not to be decided by how someone was born and what equipment they can reasonably use because of that.
Are smaller wheels not an equal disadvantage to taller riders right now?
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so low their chin is on the top cap? Maybe this won’t be an issue in practice but I’d like races not to be decided by how someone was born and what equipment they can reasonably use because of that.
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top pros don’t have a better baseline than your neighbor? Sports have ALWAYS rewarded athletes who have natural predisposition for their sport. Look at the inverse, sports that favor smaller riders. Hell, talk to a 6’5” downhill rider and ask them if a 5’5” guy has an advantage…
I just hope all the light/medium technical trails survive this XC Renaissance 32" madness. Ever since gravel bikes got popular, it seems like it has become standard practice to turn any non black diamond trail into a dirt version of a paved road. Kind of seems like everything is either a flow trail/fire road or the gnar gnar these days, and nothing in between.
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so low their chin is on the top cap? Maybe this won’t be an issue in practice but I’d like races not to be decided by how someone was born and what equipment they can reasonably use because of that.
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top...
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top pros don’t have a better baseline than your neighbor? Sports have ALWAYS rewarded athletes who have natural predisposition for their sport. Look at the inverse, sports that favor smaller riders. Hell, talk to a 6’5” downhill rider and ask them if a 5’5” guy has an advantage…
Some goalposts have always been there, some are just about to move, I don't think it should be that hard to understand that.
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so low their chin is on the top cap? Maybe this won’t be an issue in practice but I’d like races not to be decided by how someone was born and what equipment they can reasonably use because of that.
Haha oh god, and then cycling became the next NBA. I do appreciate that mountain biking by and large doesn’t seem to be a sport that favors a certain body type and would hate for that to change
I just hope all the light/medium technical trails survive this XC Renaissance 32" madness. Ever since gravel bikes got popular, it seems like it has become...
I just hope all the light/medium technical trails survive this XC Renaissance 32" madness. Ever since gravel bikes got popular, it seems like it has become standard practice to turn any non black diamond trail into a dirt version of a paved road. Kind of seems like everything is either a flow trail/fire road or the gnar gnar these days, and nothing in between.
eebs came online the same time grav did. we want the sport to grow but a lot of new riders see rocks on a trail and wonder why the trail builders didn't smooth them over. new eeb riders with a strava heatmap can get themselves into a lot of trouble...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so...
What happens for small riders who hit the hard limit on stack with a 100mm fork and a 32in wheel? Reduce the travel? Drop stem so low their chin is on the top cap? Maybe this won’t be an issue in practice but I’d like races not to be decided by how someone was born and what equipment they can reasonably use because of that.
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top...
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top pros don’t have a better baseline than your neighbor? Sports have ALWAYS rewarded athletes who have natural predisposition for their sport. Look at the inverse, sports that favor smaller riders. Hell, talk to a 6’5” downhill rider and ask them if a 5’5” guy has an advantage…
Not sure if you're trying to compare cycling to motorsport or ball sports but one of these things is not like the other when it comes to equipment. In DH the GOAT is 6'2" and the possible next GOAT is 5'8".
I have a different opinion. As long as it's a bike with 2 wheels and human power output, I say anything flies. Don't level the playing...
I have a different opinion. As long as it's a bike with 2 wheels and human power output, I say anything flies. Don't level the playing field. Let it be raw. If the winning combo is sitting in between 60 inch wheels then let that be. Maybe there will be an advantage we don't know yet to shorter people vs taller people. Don't limit the equipment beyond necessary, let it all play out.
Where were you when the DH riders petitioned the UCI to ban skinsuits and make helmet peaks mandatory, basically stopping aero in the sport?
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top...
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top pros don’t have a better baseline than your neighbor? Sports have ALWAYS rewarded athletes who have natural predisposition for their sport. Look at the inverse, sports that favor smaller riders. Hell, talk to a 6’5” downhill rider and ask them if a 5’5” guy has an advantage…
Counter argument: all sports that heavily rely on equipment have pretty strict rules around that equipment. I mean even if you just stay in cycling: different wheel sizes are different classes in BMX, road bikes are 28" and time trial bikes are heavily regulated but with an eye to accommodate small and tall riders.
Are smaller wheels not an equal disadvantage to taller riders right now?
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to deal with packaging issues for being able to fit larger wheels into a XS frame.
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to...
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to deal with packaging issues for being able to fit larger wheels into a XS frame.
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would...
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would ask a genie to be 6” taller.
Filippo Ganna, the current holder of the hour record, is 193cm.
How big of a disadvantage is being taller on the air resistance front? And how much of an advantage being smaller brings here?If we're banning wheel...
How big of a disadvantage is being taller on the air resistance front? And how much of an advantage being smaller brings here?
If we're banning wheel sizes, why not also ban frame sizes?
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would...
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would ask a genie to be 6” taller.
You have to consider absolute power as well, not just W/KG. On the road teams have talked about using a “compound score” which is W/KG * 5 minute power. Pidcock for example who is tiny and has greats W/KG gets outclimbed by guys heavier than him all the time and gets destroyed on flatter sections if he’s hitting the wind because his absolute watts are lower than riders around him. he probably wouldn’t want to be 6 inches taller, but 2 or 3 inches and a bit heavier with more absolute power he’d probably be a better rider.
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to...
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to deal with packaging issues for being able to fit larger wheels into a XS frame.
it's funny when the 32" "advantage" won't be an advantage when everyone is on one.
You're assuming that the advantages of 32" wheels apply to all riders evenly - but that's very likely incorrect.
I know a guy who works in the product management team at Cube and they are evaluating 32" wheels for application in XCO and XCM racing. So far, their testing data suggests that 32" wheels are disproportionally more advantageous for larger riders. Very broadly speaking, the taller the rider, the more they can potentially benefit from 32" wheels. On the other hand the data suggests that for riders below roughly 6' 1", 32" wheels are more of a hinderance than an advantage in timed testing.
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would...
Not to mention the Square-Cube law making it increasingly hard to maintain a competitive W/Kg. I doubt there are any endurance athletes on earth who would ask a genie to be 6” taller.
Counter argument: all sports that heavily rely on equipment have pretty strict rules around that equipment. I mean even if you just stay in cycling: different...
Counter argument: all sports that heavily rely on equipment have pretty strict rules around that equipment. I mean even if you just stay in cycling: different wheel sizes are different classes in BMX, road bikes are 28" and time trial bikes are heavily regulated but with an eye to accommodate small and tall riders.
100% this.
Think about how heavily regulated baseball bats, golf clubs, and tennis rackets are at the elite level. Do you remember when Tom Brady was accused of playing with under-inflated footballs? Almost every sport that relies on equipment has very strict rules about that equipment to create a more level playing field. There's no such thing as a truly level playing field, of course, but deliberately making it less level from the top-down is typically viewed as a negative in sports.
And while arguing about rules seems off-topic here, I think it's extremely on-topic, because the regulatory landscape of our sport's premier racing events determines where the money flows in technology and innovations. For instance, 32" are only being discussed because they're currently UCI legal. If the UCI banned them, this conversation and the money from manufacturers would dry up real quick. IIRC the mainstream adoption of mullet wheels was directly related to the UCI lifting the longstanding rule about running the same wheelsize front and rear for MTB. Racing rules have a big role in shaping the landscape of tech & innovations.
100% this.Think about how heavily regulated baseball bats, golf clubs, and tennis rackets are at the elite level. Do you remember when Tom Brady was accused...
100% this.
Think about how heavily regulated baseball bats, golf clubs, and tennis rackets are at the elite level. Do you remember when Tom Brady was accused of playing with under-inflated footballs? Almost every sport that relies on equipment has very strict rules about that equipment to create a more level playing field. There's no such thing as a truly level playing field, of course, but deliberately making it less level from the top-down is typically viewed as a negative in sports.
And while arguing about rules seems off-topic here, I think it's extremely on-topic, because the regulatory landscape of our sport's premier racing events determines where the money flows in technology and innovations. For instance, 32" are only being discussed because they're currently UCI legal. If the UCI banned them, this conversation and the money from manufacturers would dry up real quick. IIRC the mainstream adoption of mullet wheels was directly related to the UCI lifting the longstanding rule about running the same wheelsize front and rear for MTB. Racing rules have a big role in shaping the landscape of tech & innovations.
I agree with you it's how many sports are regulated, but I also hope that isn't where downhill & xc are headed yet. Imagine if we were all still on 26 wheels with a 410mm size L reach with quick release wheels because that was the regulation from 20 years ago. Obviously there is a line, but I hope the governing body doesn't draw that line too soon. I hope there's a more open ruleset, for now, because of the innovation happening in the sport, even though we may not all agree on some of it (headset routing for example). It'll ultimately push the sport and our understanding forward imo.
Indeed bikes are not shite, but they could be better in ways that are not 'faster' and everyone having the same innovation isn't innovation. I'm excited to see what comes in the pre Sea Otter rush for product releases.
Hopefully some more news soon on the Forbidden trail bike posted a while back, that thing looks ideal for my area.
Are smaller wheels not an equal disadvantage to taller riders right now?
Ever watched any sport ever? How they are full of people born with qualities that make them especially good at their sport? You think the top pros don’t have a better baseline than your neighbor? Sports have ALWAYS rewarded athletes who have natural predisposition for their sport. Look at the inverse, sports that favor smaller riders. Hell, talk to a 6’5” downhill rider and ask them if a 5’5” guy has an advantage…
I just hope all the light/medium technical trails survive this XC Renaissance 32" madness. Ever since gravel bikes got popular, it seems like it has become standard practice to turn any non black diamond trail into a dirt version of a paved road. Kind of seems like everything is either a flow trail/fire road or the gnar gnar these days, and nothing in between.
Some goalposts have always been there, some are just about to move, I don't think it should be that hard to understand that.
Haha oh god, and then cycling became the next NBA. I do appreciate that mountain biking by and large doesn’t seem to be a sport that favors a certain body type and would hate for that to change
eebs came online the same time grav did. we want the sport to grow but a lot of new riders see rocks on a trail and wonder why the trail builders didn't smooth them over. new eeb riders with a strava heatmap can get themselves into a lot of trouble...
Not sure if you're trying to compare cycling to motorsport or ball sports but one of these things is not like the other when it comes to equipment. In DH the GOAT is 6'2" and the possible next GOAT is 5'8".
Where were you when the DH riders petitioned the UCI to ban skinsuits and make helmet peaks mandatory, basically stopping aero in the sport?
Counter argument: all sports that heavily rely on equipment have pretty strict rules around that equipment. I mean even if you just stay in cycling: different wheel sizes are different classes in BMX, road bikes are 28" and time trial bikes are heavily regulated but with an eye to accommodate small and tall riders.
I would say no because you can get an optimal geometry (bar height, TT length, etc.) for all riders easier when you do not have to deal with packaging issues for being able to fit larger wheels into a XS frame.
Yet the fox speedsuit exists and has a measurable advantage. I'm all for the wild west in terms of regulation unless it becomes dangerous.
Greg Minnar disagrees with you, but keep on.
Small wheels don’t constrain geo. How would it have any effect?
Didn’t Minaar want a bigger frame and stiffer chainstays? What does that have to do with wheels?
Filippo Ganna, the current holder of the hour record, is 193cm.
Same site seems to have a Stage 2 as well
https://www.racecompany.fr/fr/casques-integraux/4598-28044-casque-troy-lee-designs-stage-2-sp26.html#/2810-taille-xs_s/3784-couleur-camo_desert
You have to consider absolute power as well, not just W/KG. On the road teams have talked about using a “compound score” which is W/KG * 5 minute power. Pidcock for example who is tiny and has greats W/KG gets outclimbed by guys heavier than him all the time and gets destroyed on flatter sections if he’s hitting the wind because his absolute watts are lower than riders around him. he probably wouldn’t want to be 6 inches taller, but 2 or 3 inches and a bit heavier with more absolute power he’d probably be a better rider.
He also insinuated that 32s were pushing it a little
He did, but he also has kept a somewhat open mind towards it.
Oak components cranks coming soon
You're assuming that the advantages of 32" wheels apply to all riders evenly - but that's very likely incorrect.
I know a guy who works in the product management team at Cube and they are evaluating 32" wheels for application in XCO and XCM racing. So far, their testing data suggests that 32" wheels are disproportionally more advantageous for larger riders. Very broadly speaking, the taller the rider, the more they can potentially benefit from 32" wheels. On the other hand the data suggests that for riders below roughly 6' 1", 32" wheels are more of a hinderance than an advantage in timed testing.
Yes, typically physically taller, larger riders have an advantage in absolute maximum power output and compound power.
Don't make @sspomer come yell at us again...
Do we have a list of everything expected at Sea Otter this year?
Possibly the a Forbidden e-dreadnought 180/170 with Avinox m2 motor and new Zeb. Also the Reya XC bike.
World ain’t fair. Get on with it.
Sounds more like tall riders are at a disadvantage riding wheels too small for them..
This looks amazing, any chance anyone got travel numbers?
Would be rad with a flip chip to run a mullet setup
100% this.
Think about how heavily regulated baseball bats, golf clubs, and tennis rackets are at the elite level. Do you remember when Tom Brady was accused of playing with under-inflated footballs? Almost every sport that relies on equipment has very strict rules about that equipment to create a more level playing field. There's no such thing as a truly level playing field, of course, but deliberately making it less level from the top-down is typically viewed as a negative in sports.
And while arguing about rules seems off-topic here, I think it's extremely on-topic, because the regulatory landscape of our sport's premier racing events determines where the money flows in technology and innovations. For instance, 32" are only being discussed because they're currently UCI legal. If the UCI banned them, this conversation and the money from manufacturers would dry up real quick. IIRC the mainstream adoption of mullet wheels was directly related to the UCI lifting the longstanding rule about running the same wheelsize front and rear for MTB. Racing rules have a big role in shaping the landscape of tech & innovations.
I agree with you it's how many sports are regulated, but I also hope that isn't where downhill & xc are headed yet. Imagine if we were all still on 26 wheels with a 410mm size L reach with quick release wheels because that was the regulation from 20 years ago. Obviously there is a line, but I hope the governing body doesn't draw that line too soon. I hope there's a more open ruleset, for now, because of the innovation happening in the sport, even though we may not all agree on some of it (headset routing for example). It'll ultimately push the sport and our understanding forward imo.
120/130
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