Hello Vital MTB Visitor,
We’re conducting a survey and would appreciate your input. Your answers will help Vital and the MTB industry better understand what riders like you want. Survey results will be used to recognize top brands. Make your voice heard!
Five lucky people will be selected at random to win a Vital MTB t-shirt.
Thanks in advance,
The Vital MTB Crew
Alas, not from 2025.
Mondraker proto DH bike will be in production for 2026,
Also comes with a 2026 Boxxer, which has Charger 3.2 and "air preload" (I assume this is that bump in the left lower)
And DH transmission will be under the XX label, with new cranks
,
took this from forbidden group
Interesting
How’s everyone feel about DH transmission?
I should go singlespeed on my dh bike at this point. That point aside, if I was racing at the pointy end and if it actually shifted more reliably, then sure I would give it a go if my frame sponsor happened to also have a UDH and I wasn’t on a Shimano or Box equipped package.
I really doubt it can shift at 1,000+ watts though.
If you're Amaury Pierron and you have a mountain of spare derailleurs waiting for you at the team truck, I'm sure DH Transmission is lovely to use. It's probably pretty durable, and shifts great under power.
But as a customer, I can't imagine ever justifying a $500 derailleur on a DH bike, not to mention having one more thing to forget to charge before riding. Maybe ten years from now the price of electronic shifting will come back down to earth, but for now it's crazy to me to use a $500 tool in a vulnerable spot on a DH race bike that's going to go through hell when a $100 tool will work just fine.
For those customers who have lots of money, who like buying shiny things, and who aren't hard on bikes, I'm sure that employees of SRAM- and, really, bike companies everywhere- thank you for your service.
Eagle 90 DH would go hard. Maybe the cages will be compatible?
For what reason?
The GX setup on my V10 shifts as smoothly as I need it to, and can be replaced at minimal cost. I’d think that money would be better spent on a custom fork and shock tune.
Pros.. A T-type DH drivetrain should be more durable. The most vulnerable part is now smaller and replaceable.
Cons.. Cost.
I agree, a GX DH setup would be my choice. Maybe throw on a XO shifter if I wanted to splurge a bit. Spending the extra money on things that are more important for DH.
Crazy/ stupid idea.. With 148 showing up on more DH bikes, how about singlespeed with a Classified rear hub?
you‘d need another shifter, can’t block gears without limiter screws on the derailleur
Lidl-Trek made their own limit screw to meet UCI gearing limits, should be adaptable to other T-Type mechs:
Source: https://escapecollective.com/12-cogs-13-speed-derailleur-lidl-treks-rou…
I can appreciate your angle -- Raaw is focused on great riding bikes that are easy for the owner ride hard, put away wet and maintain and why wouldn't we want that with an e-bike? Make something more complex less complex for the average person.
I think the issue arises with motors, batteries, etc -- I don't think they'll ever be as durable as a standard Raaw bike so you introduce complexities into a company that's built itself off of offering a less complex product. Then you increase operating coast because you have folks spending more time on R&D and customer service, while possibly increasing warranty tickets because complexity introduces more room for problems.
I don't have a degree in anything to do with business so I might be talking out my a** but I love my Raaw and I'd hate to see the brand compromised because of the e-bike trend.
Okay - thanks for listening to my rant. Back to rumor stuff. I hear the new 38 is closer to production ready that we might have anticipated.
curious if the new 40 will come at the same time.
And the 2025 "Simplicity is the ultimate innovation award" goes to Transmission 90 mechanical and XT M8100 for their outstanding lack of electronic component complication, perfectly acceptable shifting performance and general affordability. We thank you for being as good as anyone ever would need.
RAAW is a german company, last year, the total numbers of all MTB sold in Germany was about 80k, that number is getting smaller and smaller in the last years. now look at EMTB sold, that was 800k, 10x as much as non motorized MTB. so they exist in an ever shrinking market if they don’t adapt to the new reality..,
If they keep their release strategy the same, they’ll release the new 38 on April 7th, 2026.
The question is, can brands survive without making an ebike? Based on what I know about sales at bike dealers, pedal bike purchases are in persistent decline. In order for a brand to grow or even stay the same size, they will have to make an ebike. I think there have smartly been many hold-outs... and I agree, maybe producing a product like an EMTB is too intensive and requires too much warranty overhead to the point where that process can kill a small/mid sized brand. But I also can assume that most brands aren't in business to persistently struggle to stay afloat and/or get smaller and continually step closer too less and less staff.
I'm surprised we don't talk about the weight difference between AXS stuff and cable more. I'm no weight weenie (36 lb alloy Norco Sight w 2 lb of lead), but I'm certainly not interested in adding unsprung mass to my bike when I can avoid it. Seems odd, especially on a DH bike where suspension sensitivity is the whole point. I just checked, and a 90 series rear mech is about a 100g lighter than a GX T-type (incl battery). Better yet, an XT 12-speed mechanical rear mech is another 110 grams lighter than the 90 series. Not totally against electronic stuff, but I figure every gram of weight I knock off the rear end I can add in lead on the BB and have better suspension feel+lower COG. Even better when I'm paying 1/3rd the amount for XT mechanical lol.
That all being said, is there any way to make the electronic components any lighter? Are we at a plateau with battery energy density or in how small/light we can make the servos/motors? I would imagine those are the heaviest electronics pieces on the mechs. I was thinking about how it's odd that I've never seen any advertisements about advancements in those realms, but you'll see brands flaunting their $500 carbon cage upgrade that saves 13 grams.
Almost 8K USD build on Eagle 90 is a bit hard pill to swallow... especially when the current Spire 29" Carbon Complete Bike with X0 AXS Build and Factory suspension is 6999. Wild times for sure but not really following what they try to tell with that.
@Dave_Camp shared this elsewhere in the Vital forums, but he thinks unsprung mass doesn't have nearly the effect on suspension performance that we tend to assign it in the popular imagination. And he's pretty smart.
As someone who's pretty sensitive to suspension performance and who runs really heavy wheels, tires, and inserts, I tend to agree.
Even heavy wheels really don't make that much of a difference.
It's just due to the relative strength of the forces. Put your bike in a stand and try cycle the rear to sage point. It's a LOT for force than what people assume. 200g of a derailleur is just nothing in comparison.
People think 500g/1kg would make a huge difference, but it's almost all handling related and not suspension movement.
What do you mean by “relative strength of forces”? This sounds like a misunderstanding of the physics as play within suspension. The conversation around unsprung mass relates to the acceleration of the wheel when it impacts a bump, and this acceptation is directly tied to the mass of the object being accelerated. While anecdotally you may not have noticed a difference in the added weight, 500-1000g is substantial. Apologies if I’m coming off strong, but I think it’s important to discuss anecdotal vs scientific/theoretical when talking about this stuff.
I’m curious to see what Dave’s comments were on this. I’d assume that rider preferences or terrain variation end up being comparable to the percent variation that you could get from a 100-200g change in unsprung mass.
Agreed. Not to say that a 250g increase is very noticeable, but it definitely does something. Probably not something that us laymen should be really worried over, but if I was a high level racer pushing my bike to ragged edge and .010 seconds was the difference between a good result and great one, maybe this would be a thought? Anyways, we should get back to rumours, I meant my original post as more of a discussion about the potential to refine electronics not a total derailment.
It's like when we add DH casing tyres over say EXO/EXO+ the whole bike just feels more planted and smoother.
the rotating mass Allows the Wheels to Just monster more things.
tyre/wheel weight make more a normal immediate difference than frame weight etc.
I cant tell the difference between a heavy drivetrain and a light one, maybe overal weight with climbing but i always feel like you get used to extra climbing weight pretty quick, Heavy tyres/wheels(and compound) make a massssive difference
I compared two bikes(our gen 7 fuels) one in alloy and one in Carbon(9.8) i added the difference in weight to the carbon and after the first 10mins i didnt notice the weight but I did notice the stiffness(this is with all the same parts) the Carbon frame was more responsive and felt like you got alot less Flex when pedaling and providing more forward momentum
However, i still prefer the alloy version, it just feels fantastic to ride 🤷♂️
While a more massive object requires proportionally more force to achieve a specific acceleration, it’s important to remember that in compression the thing imparting this force on the unsprung mass is extremely massive. The unsprung mass is going to get out of the way of whatever impact it encounters. Rebound is really the question.
I think in most cases the things that add weight normally add more performance than you lose from the increased mass, eg heavier/wider tyres.
Also unsprung mass is going to play a bigger part at higher frequencies (more rapid changing direction) and our enemy friction is normally much bigger at that point! So 200g of unsprung mass doesnt matter too much when there is 4-5kg of excess friction in the system.
I absolutely agree heavy tires and wheels make a big difference, just not in suspension performance.
Heavy tires and wheels impart positive and negative handling characteristics. Same as weight, add 1kg and the bike is quite a bit harder to bunny hop. Because taking a 16kg bike to 17kg is a 6% increase. For suspension however it the system weight and friction that matter, so 1kg weight increase isn't as large a change as it is for handling characteristics.
The fact you hit a stationary object is obvious, however, the heavier your moving mass, the more impact energy needs to be dissipated at the same velocity. Dissipation of that impact energy takes away from your velocity.
In theory, if you hit the same object with 2 identical bikes, but 1 has weight transferred from frame to wheels, a few things will happen:
- Wheels will bounce up until they've cleared obstacle, and then continue their upward motion until damping and spring stops the "overshoot"
- In case of heavier wheels, this upward motion is more pronounced, and more energy is required to stop the motion, and then to control the return speed.
The whole point of suspension is so that your sprung weight is stable (ok that may be bit over simplified) and controlled. For an extreme example, just think about how an e-bike or another moto rides. They're very stable compared to a mountain bike, regardless of wheels - it's the sprung/unsprung ratio that's responsible for most of that feeling.
On the other end would be a tractor wheel alone rolling down the street, until it hits a curb and flies up. Now if you somehow attached a bike to that wheel, it'll fly away with the wheel like it's no-one else's business, and it doesn't even matter if the bike has any suspension, the wheel is just so heavy it dictates the path.
Real differences are obviously nuanced, but I'd imagine many would recognize 250g added to their bike's wheel they're familiar with. I'd guess almost no-one would recognize 250g on a frame, but for instance adding CushCore to a wheel is about that weight and does that ever make a difference.
i don't know how well known that already is in the englisch speaking world, but they are in a development partnership with german motor brand hepha:
https://www.emtb-news.de/news/hepha-raaw-entwicklungspartnerschaft/
Wonder if there will be a race day battery for the electronic DH derailleur. Downhill racers don't need the same capacity as a regular derailleur as you only shift a handful of times in a race run. The weight saving is probably marginal though.