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Finally watched this, and it was great. Nice, Jeff. Don't remember if you mentioned fork offset. I think the new Boxxer has options for 48mm or 52mm. Did you notice that or care on your Spire, going from what I assume was a 44mm offset single crown?
Also worth mentioning, for just $100 more, you don't even have to get a new front wheel to run a Boxxer on your trail bike. My apologies if this has already been posted and reposted here: https://www.freakynuts.com/shop/rockshox-boxxer-fork-16mm-adapter-v2-0-boxxer-2019-2025-hell-pin/
Sketchy they are selling conversion kit axles for inverted forks.
But probably fine in a right side up fork.
I struggle to grasp why someone would pay a buttload of money for a Fox Podium but not just rebuild their front wheel on a new hub?
ISO to centerlock in the images is thematically correct.
Sorry, the site administrator forwww.freakynuts.com blocked access to the site for certain geographic regions.
The head angle in the low position was actually a closer to 64 with the crowns low enough to be close to stock BB height and a 29er wheel. At the end of the season I pulled the angle set out to try it at 63 since it’s a park bike. Keeping the angle set as it could go back in but will keep trying it with the stock headset for now. For a 27.5 front I’d say you’re good on the stock headset and just run the crowns high. I also ended up liking the high position better for my setup.
Short answer is I don't know. David wasn't sure (his fork) nor was I. We both thought it was 52mm but I was able to compare to a friend's who is in fact 52 and the crowns were different, so now I'm thinking 48, which jives with the turning radius being so...bad.
As to if I noticed the answer is "not really". There was already a lot of change happening, so I'd be lying if I said I could feel a few mms of offset change (assuming its 48).
That said, I'm sure if I had many crowns to test I'd be able to tell. I know when I was going back and forth between 51mm and 37mm offset 36s back in the day I could tell a huge difference (and loved 37mm on the enduro bike).
Edit: (big long edit) One idea I've had is if we more broadly adopted dual crowns (and enduro bike head-tubes/fork dropouts were designed with this in mind) and manufacturers started to offer modular dropouts (so you could change your rear center) the modern "gravity mountain bike fit" could be a thing. IE, a fitter could tune the chassis's fit to the rider so in his/her natural riding position the bike feels well balanced. This could be measured in a "fit studio" on scales with field feedback being used to fine tune.
TL;DR, dual crowns could open the door to easy...
*Head tube adjustment (slide fork up and down in the crowns + angle adjust headset)
*Stack adjustment (already easy, I know, but you have two methods now)
*Offset adjusment (new crowns aren't cheap, but its more doable/easy than new CSUs)
*Reach adjust headsets (1 1/8" steerer makes this easier)
This is fertile ground for a manufacturer against a sea of boring same-ness. I won't hold my breath, but it'd be really cool to see this...
I much prefer DC forks for burly enduro trails, lift assisted dh or bike park runs. If the daily uphill ride is over 500m vertical, then I’d rather take another bike or modify the bike for these long, one day epics, w/ a sc fork.
Did you ever try the Range? Most people agree it eats bumps much better, same weight, doesn’t drop chains, pedals decently. Still can be found new.
Ok, So this is a terrible idea but hear me out.....what if we took the already sketchy thru axle adapters and made them.....eccentric? I see no issues, other than all of the obvious ones and you would get at least +/- 2mm in a 20mm to 15mm drop out
Please no one do that, but if you do report back here!
It's a shame more hubs aren't convertible between 15-20mm spacing like Hope hubs are. Investing in one of those would save a lot of trouble when you decide to go park mode on your endhuro bike
Here is mine:
Loved this one, very pedal efficient but made me looking more into a full DH bike so I switched to a Phoenix v5.
Firm believer in the enduro dual crown setup ever since I had a Super T. on a VPfree way back when. Now on a long-stroked G1 with a (slightly) lowered and reduced offset Dorado.
Are the v3 Evils capable of having more travel at the back? Like with a Cascade link or something?
From the CC page it looks like progression is changed but you can ask them, maybe they can do something custom for you. One thing that I can say is that DELTA platform is very smooth. Loved that bike.
Always wondered why people rave about the DELTA suspension since it’s a single-pivot design, but then I remember Dave Wiggle was involved in designing it so it’s gotta be good! Reason for more travel - I feel like 166 or 168mm at the rear, depending on if it’s the Wreckoning or the Insurgent, is not enough to combine it with a 200mm dc.
Ran my G1 with a triple clamp last year, formula Nero. Definitely a lot stiffer up front, but felt like the fork worked more consistently through the bigger hits. No creekty csus either!!
Downside was tyre clearance as it’s a pretty short fork axle to crown, so squeezing it on a 130mm headtube was very precise and too close for my liking.
Fox40 and a boxxer gives a bit more room on the headtube, so will pick one up at some point.
Here's mine @ 180 mm, fork also has the Shockcraft Rockeater home install kit, incredible fork
Forgot to mention that the front travel was reduced to 190mm. I agree, in some cases a bit more rear travel would be nice, but that really only matters on the gnarlier trails.
In my view, if you have double crowns, go with the full 200mm travel - you gonna need it! I’ve persuaded my lazy ass over the years that more travel saves it from serious trouble! 🤣 Was just wondering for the rear of the Evils - they’re a famous and really liked brand, would be normal for crazy geniuses like Cascade to offer a lt-link with different progressivity.
Wouldn't be the biggest downsides of these conversions be bottom bracket height and front weight and steering on tight trails?
Before the 38 forks came out haibike and a few other brands offered dual crown ebikes but they died off when the 38 single crowns came on the market.
The problem is that ebikes are already front heavy because of the battery and burlier fork. So if you add an even heavier dual crown fork it will be overall heavier and you will have an harder time to pop a manual etc. which is an issue on an ebike. Plus you can climb ridiculous stuff on an ebike so adding a longer fork that will reduce the ability to ride hairpins uphill will kinda limit the very thing an ebike does that an acoustic bike can't.
So I'd say they might work for very specific use cases (doing dh laps with a fireroad uphill but aren't ideal for alpine terrain).
there are plenty of companies making hubs that are convertible between 15 and 20mm - king, hadley, i9, DT are a couple off the top of my head.
Most of the DT 15mm Boost hubs in circulation can't be converted to 20mm. They make a DH version of the 240/350 that is 20mm Boost and can be converted down to 15mm, but most of the hubs out there are the smaller 15mm version that can't be converted up to 20mm. This is dumb IMO, and I was shocked OneUp did something similar, but they don't even make a 20mm version. I assume it's to save a few grams with smaller shell/bearings.
Others that will convert include Spank Hex, Hope, and RF Vault.
What if I told you there was already a thread for answering this exact question... https://www.vitalmtb.com/forums/hub/converting-15mm-boost-front-hubs-20mm-boost-dh
In case others didn’t catch my review, here’s the short version:
Travel: Most dual crowns can be adjusted down to around 180 mm of travel. Sure, that’s 10 mm more than the 170 mm specced on many enduro bikes, but once you factor in sag, geo changes are (very) minimal.
Weight: Many dual crowns are actually lighter than the Podium, which was designed with e-bikes in mind. The Boxxer, for instance, is only about 0.25 lbs heavier, a difference I can’t feel on the trail.
Steering: Steering can be an issue, but if the bike is built with dual crowns in mind (edit: slimmer head tube, etc.), it’s really not that bad. I also ride moto,all of which run dual crowns, on steep, technical, switchback-heavy terrain. You get used to it quickly.
the DT's I have can be converted, but yes I am not surprised they have other models that can't. my point was that Hope isn't the only company that offers hubs that can switch between 15 and 20mm.
Yes I'm tootin' my horn here but the winning Rampage bike would fit right in here. That's a regular Altitude frame with a few low key mods that anyone can do.
It's really rad to see everyone's builds and to see how they can be valid in freeride and such... Buuut I just wanna chime in and remind the new participants that the original thread was more so about why the STOCK builds exist and what the implications were for downhill bikes going forwards.
Admittedly, the first reply basically 99.9% solved the investigation immediately by saying "these are almost certainly to be rented/bought as park DH bikes" (paraphrased)... In so far as average users (not racers or even free riders) are concerned.
Although I do like the topic Jeff has brought up even more which is "are dual crowns only for downhill bikes?" answer being... almost certainly not. (or even more quizzically... define 'downhill bikes' lol)
So yeah I think the thread started out with "what exactly is a production downhill bike" tooo "what COULD we do to improve future enduro ('super enduro') or free ride bikes" going forward...
I'm a big fan of the dual crowns. I had an original tazer with a fox 36 and thought the spec of the DC fork on the newer tazer was a mistake and that turning radius would be garbage. Then I rode one haha! Its an amazing do it all bike and is far more nimble than it looks.
current vaults are not compatible either anymore
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