MTB Tech Rumors and Innovation

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seanfisseli
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Santa Cruz, CA US
7/30/2025 10:27am

All suspension designs will become Crab and all tech rumor conversations will become Long Chainstay

31
63expert
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Beaver, WV US
7/30/2025 4:10pm

All suspension designs will become Crab and all tech rumor conversations will become Long Chainstay

Next Megatower will be virtual crab

4
TEAMROBOT
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Los Angeles, CA US
7/30/2025 4:15pm
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

33
7/30/2025 4:23pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

2
13
metadave
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Revelstoke, BC CA
7/30/2025 5:27pm
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*Crab rumors

11
7/30/2025 7:23pm
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

metadave wrote:

*Crab rumors

Username checks out

2
slimshady
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AR
7/30/2025 8:36pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

For a Saxon language, you English guys are extremely Latin for some words.

7
jeff.brines
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Location
Grand Junction, CO US
7/30/2025 8:46pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

I must have skipped this day of bike nerdery 201. Please explain...

2
boozed
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646
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AU
7/30/2025 9:09pm Edited Date/Time 7/30/2025 9:10pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

I must have skipped this day of bike nerdery 201. Please explain...

I assume "chainstay length" is supposed to be the distance between the BB axis and the rear axle axis, while "rear centre length" is the minimal distance between those two points projected vertically?

Gee I hope there are some tech rumours to talk about soon.

12
Brian_Peterson
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Canyon Country, CA US
7/30/2025 9:24pm
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

25
Primoz
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SI
7/30/2025 10:31pm Edited Date/Time 7/30/2025 10:34pm

Chainstay length is BB to rear axle distance, direct. Rear centre is the horizontal distance between the BB and rear axle. The projection of BB on the ground to the tyre contact patch if you will (and same for front centre). This is affected by the dynamic sag  both front and rear as it is affected by the inclination of the bike frame.

Chainstay length (the changes of it) affects pedaling performance (antisquat and kickback), rear centre length affects front rear balance. Though technically for that the axle to centre of gravity distance would make more sense than the distance to the BB as the two are not in the same vertical... 

2
1
7/30/2025 11:23pm
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

slimshady wrote:

For a Saxon language, you English guys are extremely Latin for some words.

The English language is essentially a jumble of stolen shit.... So why not!

7
7/30/2025 11:36pm Edited Date/Time 7/30/2025 11:44pm
Primoz wrote:
Chainstay length is BB to rear axle distance, direct. Rear centre is the horizontal distance between the BB and rear axle. The projection of BB on...

Chainstay length is BB to rear axle distance, direct. Rear centre is the horizontal distance between the BB and rear axle. The projection of BB on the ground to the tyre contact patch if you will (and same for front centre). This is affected by the dynamic sag  both front and rear as it is affected by the inclination of the bike frame.

Chainstay length (the changes of it) affects pedaling performance (antisquat and kickback), rear centre length affects front rear balance. Though technically for that the axle to centre of gravity distance would make more sense than the distance to the BB as the two are not in the same vertical... 

chainstay length itself is also the distance between rear axle and pivot point - this is why the actual length matters so much, that pivot could be infront of the BB or behind it.  which has quite a role in anti squat, leverage of the stay etc - it also directly relates to where the BB ends up.

 Sorry, ill stop now Smile

11
AgrAde
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AL US
7/31/2025 12:33am Edited Date/Time 7/31/2025 12:49am
chainstay length itself is also the distance between rear axle and pivot point - this is why the actual length matters so much, that pivot could...

chainstay length itself is also the distance between rear axle and pivot point - this is why the actual length matters so much, that pivot could be infront of the BB or behind it.  which has quite a role in anti squat, leverage of the stay etc - it also directly relates to where the BB ends up.

 Sorry, ill stop now Smile

Every time you mention this random ass definition of what a chainstay length is, i can't help but think about how it doesn't make any sense unless you're talking only about single pivot bikes, and how everyone you talk to is going to misunderstand you anyway. The fun thing about language is that words mean what people understand them to mean, not what you want them to mean. I'll post the rest of my response to this in the chainstay thread.

10
7/31/2025 1:50am
AgrAde wrote:
Every time you mention this random ass definition of what a chainstay length is, i can't help but think about how it doesn't make any sense...

Every time you mention this random ass definition of what a chainstay length is, i can't help but think about how it doesn't make any sense unless you're talking only about single pivot bikes, and how everyone you talk to is going to misunderstand you anyway. The fun thing about language is that words mean what people understand them to mean, not what you want them to mean. I'll post the rest of my response to this in the chainstay thread.

It's OK you dont understand how a longer lever creates more leverage, You may have forgotten from the early school days.

If you've never put the Pivot location quite far infront of the BB in linkage, i suggest you do, then try it low and behind the BB. the differences are quite difference
Saying you dont understand that is also saying you dont understand that high pivots places the pivot HIGHER....

Im trying to condense a long Sentence to short for the sake of the ADHD People here Smile
This is basic Stuff dude... maybe i need to dumb it down for you? 

1
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AgrAde
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AL US
7/31/2025 2:24am

1) I think you're at the exact peak of the Dunning Kruger graph here.

2) That was a hint to get this discussion out of this thread.

32
7/31/2025 3:06am

*rear centre length.

They are not the same.

slimshady wrote:

For a Saxon language, you English guys are extremely Latin for some words.

Dave Waugh wrote:

The English language is essentially a jumble of stolen shit.... So why not!

English isn't a real language, it's 3 languages in a trench coat pretending to be a language. 

15
Blake_Motley
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Location
Chula Vista, CA US
7/31/2025 6:43am
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach...

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

I’m still sad we moved on from fork offset too early

14
Brian_Peterson
Posts
1132
Joined
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Location
Canyon Country, CA US
7/31/2025 7:11am
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach...

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

I’m still sad we moved on from fork offset too early

It could have lasted longer, but it's not as easily changed for the fork manufacturers..

2
nskerb
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Location
Kelso, WA US
7/31/2025 7:37am
sethimus wrote:
they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have...

they just need some riser bars, they have quite a balanced geo in large with the longer dropouts, look at forbiddens new druid core, they have a very similar geo

TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach...

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

Seems like chainstay is like the only constant circle jerk. Stack seems to be a pretty obsessive metric at the moment.
4
Blake_Motley
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Location
Chula Vista, CA US
7/31/2025 9:11am
Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach...

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

I’m still sad we moved on from fork offset too early

It could have lasted longer, but it's not as easily changed for the fork manufacturers..

At the time they still had the 37mm crowns from the 26 inch days so there’s really no excuse

3
Blake_Motley
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Location
Chula Vista, CA US
7/31/2025 9:16am
TEAMROBOT wrote:

The second law of thermodynamics in the Vital Forums: all tech rumors eventually devolve to a discussion about chainstay length. 

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach...

Have you noticed over the past few years that there has been one frame dimension that people obsess over? One year was head angle,  then reach, then seat tube angle, stack  now it's chain stays..  Now seeing more people who are realizing that all those numbers have to work together...

nskerb wrote:
Seems like chainstay is like the only constant circle jerk. Stack seems to be a pretty obsessive metric at the moment.

Narratively I think it makes sense, all these geo tweaks are downstream from one another. At least that’s what happens when you design bikes largely guided by market feedback instead of just testing things. Has any bike company been as vindicated as Geometron?

9
2
Jakub_G
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8/7/2019
Location
SK
7/31/2025 9:27am
Narratively I think it makes sense, all these geo tweaks are downstream from one another. At least that’s what happens when you design bikes largely guided...

Narratively I think it makes sense, all these geo tweaks are downstream from one another. At least that’s what happens when you design bikes largely guided by market feedback instead of just testing things. Has any bike company been as vindicated as Geometron?

I don't think so really

2
yzedf
Posts
239
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1/27/2015
Location
Hebron, CT US
7/31/2025 10:05am

I started paying attention to geo about ten years ago. For a while there every enduro bike release was trying to update to get closer to the Giant Reign of 2015 without anyone really saying so. That was in the everything needs to be longer, lower and slacker days. Couple of outliers came along, Pole and Geometron being the ones I remember. 

For the most part, seated cockpit sizes still haven’t recovered. 645mm ett used to be large territory, now that’s an xl in a lot of brands. If you want that 78-80° seat tube, you need a 530-540 reach in xl and 460 chain stays. But then people whine about the wheelbase. So you get the Ibis Oso with that normal ett for an xl of 669 with a 540 reach but they chicken out and do 444 cs which makes no sense, because they don’t want to try to sell a wheelbase nearing 1360. 

I wish I was a medium sized rider so I could easily buy a bike that’s actually designed for me. Gotta squeeze some penny’s together for a Forbidden I guess?

8
1
Brian_Peterson
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Location
Canyon Country, CA US
7/31/2025 11:28am

I’m still sad we moved on from fork offset too early

It could have lasted longer, but it's not as easily changed for the fork manufacturers..

At the time they still had the 37mm crowns from the 26 inch days so there’s really no excuse

Aren't those being used on 27.5 forks now?

2
Loche
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24
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2/16/2021
Location
CA
7/31/2025 12:56pm

Push coming out with a V2 of their Nine One inverted fork. Damper and chassis are the same, but new spring system that let's you toggle a ramp up on/off. Seems pretty cool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PejLMCeY_6Y

 

4
Blake_Motley
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Chula Vista, CA US
7/31/2025 1:05pm

It could have lasted longer, but it's not as easily changed for the fork manufacturers..

At the time they still had the 37mm crowns from the 26 inch days so there’s really no excuse

Aren't those being used on 27.5 forks now?

You’re right, even less of an excuse for not having 37mm offset 29ers 

4
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