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The Vital MTB Crew
Why are you talking about QR and old shitty Ringle stuff? That has nothing to do with... anything really. Fox 36s and everything else used a 20mm thru axle, and most frames were 142 thru. Ringle stuff was always shit and cracky. I did wildly stupid things to my 1750g Mavic wheelset, absolutely beat it to shit, and I only retired it because I bought a 27.5 bike.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/community/matf1,19896/setup,33576?keyword=SB66C&frame_brands=&sort_by=changed&cat=Bike%2BCheck
There's a 160mm enduro bike with alloy rims and a 180mm fork. 13.6kg. It wasn't uncommon at all to build them up under 13kg. What's an SB160 weigh with an equivalent build? 15.5-16kg?
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with heavy bikes, my trail bike is 17kg and my gravel bike has a pike on it. but there's no argument that 29" wheels have made our bikes significantly heavier and that we've needed new standards to make them ride well, and you'd be stupid to think that we can just slot 32" into our current designs/tech and expect it to work well.
I don't think 32"/29" mullet will do well in XC at all. Most of the rolling resistance comes from the rear, so you miss out on a lot of the advantage, and most XC setups have tiny head tubes and drop stems to get the front end lower already, so height is going to be a problem for most. I think it'll see acceptance by XL riders on full 32" who want to just put their head down and make power, roadie style, and don't want to have to bother with things like riding the trail. Maximum clearance, maximum rollover, maximum grip, spin to win. Everyone else will be on 29". I look forward to being wrong because I know fuck all about XC.
You're right. I probably shouldn't be speaking on bikes that are before my time. Also, I'm not on the 32" train, it would definitely disrupt the existing standards.
QR was very much a thing up to about 2010 when 15 and 12 mm through axles became more widespread. Shimano and Fox introduced the 15 mm front axle in 2008 and Syntace's X12 was introduced in 2010 for 2011 bikes. Before that it was QR, bolt-on or maybe 135x12 in the rear and QR or 20 mm in the front.
We tested Crankbrothers new Synthesis Enduro Alloy 2.0 wheels that launched today and were super impressed by how stout and durable they were. Our tester Mikey has broken every wheel I've ever seen him ride, and these wheels have made it just about 4 months completely unscathed. Which honestly speaks more to their durability than Commencal/Muc-Off racing with them 😂
They're sold as individual wheels, but complete sets retail for $700 (CB hubs) and $900 (i9 hubs), and the rims carry a lifetime warranty—a first for Crankbrothers on alloy rims. There is also a DH/e-MTB model.
https://www.vitalmtb.com/product/guide/wheelsets/crankbrothers/synthesis-enduro-alloy-2-0-66671
Highlights
- Reinforced and thicker rim construction
- 6069 alloy with a shot-peened finish
- Higher impact strength compared to Synthesis 1.0
- Three models: Enduro, e-bike, DH
- 27.5- and 29-inch
- Spoke Count: 28 front / 32 rear
- Front rim width: enduro - 30mm | e-bike & DH - 31mm
- Rear rim width: enduro - 28.5mm | e-bike & DH - 29.5mm
- Compliant and wide front rim profile
- Narrower and stiffer rear rim profile
- Front and rear wheels sold individually
- Rim only available
- Colors: Black or silver
- Rims are covered by a lifetime warranty
- Weight (29", Enduro Alloy, i9 hubs): 2,080g
- Industry Nine hubs: rear - $559.99 / front - $339.99
- CB Ratchet hubs - rear - $419.99 / front - $279.99
I also went by Crankbrothers a couple weeks ago to checkout their wheel facility in San Clemente, and to get some insight into testing of the new wheels—
That's impressive. Especially considering the weight and pricepoint.
Those frames were made of paper, that's why that bike weighed 30lbs, I've seen more of those frames cracked on the downtube at the BB junction than any other frame ever, Yeti was good with the warranty but that was by far from a "burly" bike. My 2014 slash weights 30lbs, thankfully its carbon, as its been repaired more times than I would like to admit. That Talas fork was a boat anchor, with the tapered steerer it weighed 2.9kg, my 180mm RFX38m.2 weights 2.3kg, lighter than the straight steerer 36 talas which was 2.45kg. Bikes from that era either pedaled great and otherwise rode like hot garbage or vise versa. Anyone really hucking "enduro" bikes back then, and I mean like the kids sending felton, SC and P.O. and not breaking everything every other ride, were riding 45+ lb bricks, I tried, I ended up with carbon splinters...
Besides wheel size, the fact that we as riders keep pushing the limits of the bikes also means frames and components have to get beefier... Which all adds weight..
Amazing how there are so many people who come to a tech and innovation thread to complain that bikes have changed in 15 years. “WHAT? ANOTHER INNOVATION? HELL NO NOT ON MY WATCH, BROTHER.” “WHAT THE HECK? BIEKS ARE GETTIN EVEN MORE CAPABLE AND FUN TO RIDE? I NEED TO POST MY OPPOSITION TO THIS MALARKEY.”
Edit to add: it’s also a really wild take to say that bikes peaked in 2012. I personally think it’s a wild take to say that bikes are peak right now. They just keep getting better!
I’m going the opposite direction and putting a 38 on my ebike which currently has a 40 on it. I have a lot of really tight 180 switchbacks on my local trails and it’s hard to make some of them with the limited turning radius of a dual crown. But I’d like to be able to use the same front wheel, it’s a Tune 20 x 110 hub. I checked Tune’s website but I can’t find any adapters for my application. Anyone know if anyone makes a conversion kit for 20 to 15?
There are loads of solutions such as this on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/306343963952?_skw=20x15mm+front+hub+adapter&it…
The issue is the endcap of 20x110 mm hub won't fit into standard boost 15 fork and this kind of adapter does nothing to fix that. Any decent machinist will turn you needed end caps on the lathe though for maybe 30bucks if you bring your own material.
Aah, probably why it's best to leave it to others for these things, I didn't think about the end caps.
Thanks, much appreciated! 😃👍🏼
Long shot, but does anyone have a 3D print file (STL or similar) for a disc rotor cover—like the one Loïc uses or the style on Neko’s Frameworks bike?
A buddy just got access to an industrial 3D printer and is looking for some projects.
Happy to print one for the file owner as a thank-you!
One has to wonder who they are making them for though 🤔🤷🏻
Stack height is my number one concern/doubt/hesitation about the adoption of 32" wheels, because stack height on 29" wheels is already REALLY tall for XC and marathon folks. When you look at the bike fits that pro road and gravel athletes are running, modern XC bikes have extremely tall front ends and upright body positions by comparison.
All of the crazy negative rise stems we see on pro XC bikes are really just bandaid solutions to hide the fact that 29ers forks and front wheels are tall AF for most of the elite XC field. Take a look at these riders bikes, most of them with extremely low rise stems, and if you just look at contact points you'll they have almost no "bar drop" from the saddle to the handlebars.
Puck Piererse' winning bike from Leogang last weekend. No bar drop:
Jolanda Neff's bike from a couple years back. No bar drop, arguably bars that are higher than the saddle:
Victor Koretzy's bike from last season. Maybe 40 cm of bar drop:
Here's Nino's bike from the Cape Epic, which is a more extreme version of his normal XC fit, because the Cape Epic is really a glorified gravel race. Despite looking insane, if you actually focus your eyes on the contact points, it's still not that much bar drop, maybe 50mm, which is pretty tame.
By comparison, here are some old pics of Chris Froome and his bike, who always had a pretty middle of the road bike fit, arguably pretty upright in comparison to other riders at the time. Still had 100-120mm of bar drop, according to my eyeballs, and that's just to the top of the bars. When he goes into the drops it's more like 200+:
Back to 32" wheels. 32" rims have a 686mm bead seat diameter, which is 64mm larger than a 29" wheel's 622mm BSD. That means slapping a 32" fork and wheel onto a 29" bike will raise the vertical stack height on that bike by 62mm!!! (see math here). That means that every single rider who I've listed above would have their bars above their saddle, including Nino and Koretzy. Yeah, duh short riders wouldn't work well on 32" wheels, but my point is that tall XC riders still have less bar drop than you would expect because they're working around a very tall front end.
Juroslav Kulhavy was 6'2"/187 cm, and even he would have basically zero bar drop if he installed a 32" fork and front wheel on his old Cape Epic bike:
The only XC/marathon riders I can think of who wouldn't have a compromised bike fit from a 32" front wheel would be the old Kona XC and CX slayer Ryan Trebon. Trebon's old CX bike for reference:
I think that adapter would work if you were installing a 20mm hub onto a 15mm Torque-cap compatible Rockshox fork, but I get that's a pretty small slice of the pie.
re: stack height - i'd wager fork travel lengths get reduced to help.
People like me, who would buy it, then realise the end caps won't work. 🤣
Really good post but I still think we are suffering from the same problem that we had 10-15 years ago: bike design, geo, riding style, and bike setup are all based on available tech and components.
Once we add a new tool to the arsenal the landscape shifts around it. Riding styles will change and bikes will be designed with different parameters and the whole sport will evolve.
The early 29ers weren’t great! But the concept was sound and eventually we figured out how to make great 29ers and riding styles adapted to the new strengths and weaknesses of the wheel size.
I would bet that seat tube angles steepen with proportional increase in reach. Shorter stems with a negative rise will maybe get us back to similar handling characteristics and a similar saddle to bar drop. What do you think?
Clip-ons direct to the stanchions!
Side note - Is this the future of elite DH 🎮🎮🎮?
I'm just spitballing here, but one of the limiting dimensions that does not help gain wheel size or suspension travel is headtube length. What if for 32" bikes, the head tube was split, in which case it only needs to house a bearing on each end, and the stem attached in between? Scott does so much integration hell already that I'd bet they'd be into this.
you're all helping them figure out 32" way too much with these suggestions 🤣
SOLUTION: handlebars that mount to the crowns!
Just make sure you wear a full face
Absolutely horrific. Scott will love it.
Can't wait for a new steerer standard to solve the issue of the taper getting in the way of the stem.
Anyone remember the short head tubes when 29ers first came out? Most XC racers are setting up their bikes to fit like a road bike.. Because watts are more important on the climbs...
I'm waiting for Deity to offer $100,000 to the first elite XC racer to win a WC running 80mm rise bars upside down.
Just imagine the cable routing potential!
No need to split the tube, just go lower
Now we’re talking.