E-MTBs That Are Also E-Motos - What's Going to Happen?

Obviously it varies from country to country. In the UK we're already seeing kids wearing balaclavas ripping up our trails on Surrons. There are videos on YT of parents turning up at trail centres with their kids on Surrons. You also see them around town, riding on footpaths/pavements etc. There are also untold illegal conversions being ridden at high speed by Deliveroo guys through pedestrianised town centres. The police don't seem to give a shit, so I'm not holding my breath that the trails will be patrolled or that anyone will get prosecuted anytime soon.

Yes I think if these become more common that their use on mtb only trails will be more common due to numbers. At least with surrons, they dont look like mtb's. They obviously dont belong. When you have mtb looking vehicles that have way more then e mtb power, policing that is going to be tough. Full power emtbs are crazy enough. These really dont belong on mtb specific trails at all. 

It's in between a Surron and an E-MTB. I hate it now and I will always hate it.

No doubt fun af but between the cyc motor and 6k watts running through that chain and frame everything will sort itself out.

 Theres a place for them, as long as it doesnt explode, but its not on mtb trails. Thats too fast and probably a lawsuit waiting to happen. I would like to see designated mini moto trails within city limits in the future though. 

 Commence growing pains

One of the guys in the pic below threatened to shoot a cyclist few weeks back.

You guys wanted Pandora's Box opened. I grew up gaining permission from other land owners to ride with their kids on bicycles then motos.
Anywhere we took a bike, a moto poached & did not care if we got kicked out. Anywhere we were permitted to ride 2 wheels (usually just swapping out at each others property if we each had a bike), motos would poach & not care.

E-bikes are just the bastard child of both categories. Making them dead silent thanks to compact lithium fuel sources just makes it easier.
You'll never convince a guy w/ a dirt bike that you having 2 wheels & choosing a smaller engine than him means you can go in & he can't.

I'm old. Real old. Seen it time & time again.  This was always where mopeds were going to take us.
Motos got kicked out of Forests & private land once 4 wheelers came along.  

This is just history repeating itself, only now, you can't hear the shit storm coming. We were fokked the day they started trying to justify all this "Class 1" BS.

Moto guys DO NOT CARE about classifications.

I don't understand the hate for e-bikes (pedal assist,) but I can totally get behind a ban on throttle-controlled e-motorcycles on bicycle trails. And this is coming from a motocross dude who also rides MTB. If it will go fast, spin the tire and uses a throttle, it's a motorcycle; It really doesn't matter if there are cranks and pedals attached to it if they don't have to be utilized. 

I'm also interested in seeing what's going to happen with these. From a legality standpoint, most of the trails around here aren't really policed by any authority, so it's like the wild west. I don't think anyone can stop 'em. 

Hm, not sure. My take is the problem will still be surrons and class 3s or whatever, not these things. Reason being these look like they suck to ride and have terrible balance and ride feel. Not sure how heavy it is, but if you enter 60+ pound weights, small motorcycle type weights, on to a bike frame with it dispersed all random, it's not going to be anywhere near as good as a surron or full power ebike in performance and feel.

Or to put it another way, I saw bikes like this quite often 5-10 years ago, and I don't see any of them anymore. And it's because the market moved on to superior design. And, inevitably, all the guys who rode bikes that looked like this rode like absolute dogshit. Even if they were decent with a normal bike/motorcycle, they would be dogshit on these half breeds.

I can't even begin to fear these things when surrons have already killed 2/3 spots in my home trail network. And have been burning spots all over SoCal faster than any class3 eeb or throttle powered bicycle ever could. Basically at double the rate because of the tire type. Small singletrack and bike jumps are not designed to handle a double wide throttle powered knobby tire. Especially ridden by... Not great riders lol

This problem will never end or be resolved. And sadly surrons are going to make pirate builds return to gatekeeping form like NEVER before, because the risk of surrons finding it is too consequential. I feel like SoCal riders got a bit fast n loose with secret spots in the social media era because there were so many spots, it didn't feel risky if one or 2 got burned. But now seeing the state of things post-covid and in the surron and social media era... It's going to go right back to nobody talking ever. As a necessity. A bummer, for sure. "It is what it is." 

Proper enforcement will be impossible, so the authorities are eventually going to make it simple - no wheeled vehicles on mixed use trails at all anywhere near urban areas or in popular outdoor locations, regardless how powered. Slippery slope? We'll see.

It's definitely a crazy time! I own a Transition Repeater and I can confidently say that I've never been cruising along at the 20 mph (USA) limit on a MTB trail (I live in the Midwest). The trails really dictate how fast you can go. Going down a hill? Sure! I've hit the 20 mph limit and the motor cuts out, but I've also gone faster than 20 mph down the same hill on bike without assist. 

I recently rode the Turbo Levo 4 and switched back and forth between class 1 and class 3 a couple times. The only difference I noticed was when I was sprinting on a downhill, I never ran out of assistance. I also never hit the 28 mph max assist. My max speed was 24 mph descending. I never went that fast anywhere else in class 3 mode. 

The Bonnell and other bikes with throttles are interesting. Would building specific trails for these bikes help? Would riders stick to those trials? If I bought one I don't see myself riding on MTB trails as they would limit the available speed. 

I don’t see the hate for responsible use but that’s not what happens a lot.  Having some dude run up on you at 20mph on a climb trying to push past you because they are a holes deserves all the hate.  Look at skypark they had to add signs all over place because there were problems and even added a climb for e-bikes  but most refuse to use it because it’s harder and eats up battery. There are plenty of reasons to hate even the class 1 but it’s not the bike it’s the people who ride them.

Want your childhood ruined? Here's a promotional video of Sam Hill riding MTB trails on a Bonnell. 

From a purely semantic point of view these are not E-MTBs that are also E-Motos, they are just e-motos. When the Surron Light Bee was originally released in Canada at least it came with a pedal kit installed so you could pretend it was an E-MTB too. 

thats my favorite part... added an ebike climb, ive never seen anyone use it. to be fair, im sure a lot of people dont actually know it exists, because of how unpopular it is. but its a classic case of encountering a problem, adding a solution, and having it change nothing.

so how would you have to make it work? enforcement. by saying ebikes only use that climb. but that will never happen. particularly becuz i think its rated like double black climb, so you need skill to use it. and most skypark riders are... not quite that. more of a family bike park (and i love it)

i'd love to borrow someones ebike and try that climb so i can 'put my money where my mouth is'. see if its basically just a steeper fire road or if its basically an e-EDR course

Whats the weight? Center of gravity seems rather high so probably will ride like a pig downhill. But people who buy these obviosuly don't care or know about that. 

The thing is in Europe and especially the Alps/Dach-Region things like those on the trails en masse will quickly lead to local or county wide bans for all bicycles on trails.

If you think it can't be enforced or nobody would care you have to keep in mind that europe is densely populated and in the Dach-Region we have a territory based hunting system meaning there are powerful people owning or renting the hunting rights with the right connections locally. Also the tourism industry is focused on elderly hikers who already hate too much bikes on hiking trails and fireroads. 

This means in countries like Austria you can get hefty fines for riding a bicycle at the wrong place at the wrong time. They also can make the trails unrideable rather easily with barriers. I saw that many times. Or destroy them as a whole. 

https://www.ride-mtb.com/de/news/biker-sollen-15000-euro-busse-bezahlen

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/innsbruck-bans-downhill-bikes-from-public-transport.html

https://www.green-zones.eu/en/blog-news/too-much-noise-tyrol-reaffirms-…

Besides them getting clotheslined as they attempt to ride by? 

Seriously though, this is the part where BiG GuVmInT will need to step in and determine what is allowed to be sold. 3 wheelers were a rage not so long ago, but it only took a small number of folx getting paralyzed or killed for the fed to step in and go Nope.  It's an issue too small for individuals, municipalities, or this industry to police and we shouldn't have to. 

I've no problem with ebikes. I've ridden city and MTB versions and see the appeal (and there are a lot to be sure). And I hate to get pedantic about things, but if a throttle twister threatens access to dirt or paved paths, or the safety of other users, then the issue lies not on enforcement but on production. That'll require the industry as we know it to step to the plate and help raise out voices about the issue before it gets outta hand.

This is austria today. If you carry your bike or surron over that fence you gonna have the land owner or employees of the land owner hunting you down by car. Yes you can try to evade them but they also will make sure that the trails on their ground won't be much fun on a bike because  they will build obstacles. And sooner or later they will know your identy because they follow you to your car or home and you'll get fined. In Austria in a case like that this can be a few hundred to thousands of euros. Also hikers and locals will be on your ass. 

Surrons are a new thing, and because of that Surron riders don't really have any investment in the sport.  It shouldn't be surprising that they're uninterested in broader questions about access, sustainability, etc.  To a much larger extent, e-bike riders have some degree of cycling background, so there's at least a general awareness of the issues surrounding their use.  As with  any aspect of humanity, some people are oblivious, some people care, and some people are just assholes.

But none of it really matters unless enforcement is stepped up significantly.  Which seems extremely unlikely in most areas, at least in the U.S.  

and for 5500? at that point absolutely no reason to buy lol. class 3 eeb or surron for sure. both cost less as far as i know? 

i feel like for the type of rider who wants a poor-handling bike, to throttle and never pedal, but be under the radar to ride hiking trails... they're likely to find a cheaper slower and maybe lighter option that isn't focused on DH-capable suspension. im not sure what that is specifically but im sure it exists. even if it looks more like a hybrid/commuter/gravely bike than an 'mtb'

i know socal beach paths are littered with cruiser style bikes that are throttle powered. similar concept. absolutely not supposed to be going ~30mph or whatever on those sandy paths lol

Our town is blowing up with them. The problem is there’s basically nowhere to ride a Surron. Not street legal and not allowed on the mtb trails. Unfortunately it will take the fatality of a few 14-15 year olds to wake people up regarding the danger. 

Make them illegal to sell or import, or some other avenue to shame them out of existence?  Seems like they have created an impossible to regulate situation, unless they don't exist in the first place. Three wheelers used to be a scourge that killed or maimed their own riders - now they are not.

There will be some high profile cases where someone get hurt. So far I only saw one surron on a trail in Europe and the dude wasn't wearing a helmet. 

So I am a little bit conflicted on this topic. I am actually as we speak building a frame for cycmotor x1 stealth, which is similar to the x1 pro on that Bonnell. It is similar to x1 pro, but it is quite a bit less power comparatively. I plan to use it in a responsible manor, no throttle and in a power mode that is comparable to a normal e bike. The problem is that I understand that not everyone will use these that way, and I feel like some people will look down on me for it. 

Mainly I just want to build my own e bike to say that I did it. I wish you could purchase a shimano or bosch system, but there is no way to as an individual.

In europe you can buy a shimano ebike motor system easily. It just doesn't make much sense as it would probably be easier to just buy a cheap complete bike and salvage it doe parts. 

great timing!

I spent the morning sampling the same woods moto race track (at an ORV park where i am designing bicycle trails)on a standard, old levo, a surron and a klx 230 and a Beta 300 Xtrainer.

My primary observation- motorcycles are motorcycles and ebikes are ebikes.  

A bike part equipped 6000w bike would probably have not survived some of the climbs that i could barely clean on the motos, electric or otherwise.

Poachers! Go build your own trails since you obviously will going at a different rate than this old man on a Singlespeed. #1FGforlife

I don’t see how these really change access.  Our local trails are poached by more gas motors than fake e bikes or surrons.  And the only guy I’ve seen on a fake e-bike is definitely not ripping up the trails any more than a regular rider.  He just an old dude who uses it as an e-bike on the trails and throttles to and from the trailhead to his house.

Now I can definitely see issues arising.  But not really anything new.  I poached the same trails I maintain for biking as an adult on my friends mini bike as a kid.  And if there were actually some places to ride locally as opposed to about 40 minutes to an hr for a moto track and around 90 minutes if you want to be in the wild.  you’d probably have a lot less people poaching the spots they know they are likely to get away with it.

Now the same goes for us mtbers.  Plenty of us ride trails that are maintained by moto dudes and don’t exactly exude gratefulness as we blast by at 20 mph.  Plenty of us put access at risk by building new trails or features.  Plenty of us poach hiking trails cause it’s the only place with dirt single track that doesn’t require a drive.

These riders should be allies and not enemies.  And while the surronster guy is definitely giving off bad vibes.  I’m sure there are a lot more harmless dudes just trying to have fun and not get harassed by people who don’t appreciate what they like to do with their time.  There’s a short downhill I created rogue when I first moved here.  Surrons sessioning up actually made the section way more fun to ride down.  But for safety sake I put in a go around for the motos and changed the end of the dh to have about a 6 ft drop that would take some serious skill to get up on a moto.  I figure it’s like a reverse squirrel catcher.  Anybody who can get up it on a moto can probably ride up the trail and if anything it will be the mtber who is out of control on their bike.  And yeah the moto shouldn’t be there but technically neither should the trail the bike is on.

Now I don’t think mtbers should just advocate for these guys cause our sport also has access issues.  But I also don’t think trying to police these guys is in mtbers interest.  And if moto advocates really adopt these guys in numbers maybe they’ll actually have a lot more access in areas with a significant population.  And moto advocates are much more of a natural partner than hikers or horses.  Especially as more moto guys are willing to trade the 2 stroke for more access.

Plus I think the only real solution is policing our green spaces.  Which is definitely NOT in my interest.

I have no issue with the bikes themselves, it looks fun

The issue is with the nut onboard, and where he/she chooses to ride them

For the American guys, it's like the right to bare Arms, it's not the gun itself, rather the nutjob holding it.

GOBLESS

Weird one for sure.  Watching that dudes vid, he states that he wants the bike BECAUSE it lets him ride where he is not allowed to ride.  So bad intentions there.  I agree with @bulletbass man in that MTB riders have been doing the same thing since forever.  Building and riding unsanctioned trails.  

Overall I just want the surron/e-moto crowed to just learn some trail etiquette.  Slow down and announce yourself before you pass.  Don't ride UP one way downhill trails.  Don't destroy trails or riding areas.  In general just don't be an asshole.  Now if I can just catch the local kids who keep thrashing our pumptrack with their surons.   

I'm getting the impression the demographic is different depending where you are. I'm sure there are plenty of responsible illegal ebike and Surron owners here in the UK, but the public perception is they're more likely to be used to snatch someone's mobile than to ride off road.

As mentioned I've seen kids accompanied by parents on video, but my own personal experience of them whilst in the woods is groups of adolescents hiding their faces and my gut feeling is they wouldn't respond too well to being approached.

We don't get too many issues with motos, but I'd imagine the level of ownership is much lower here, due to what you say about lack of places to legally ride them, which is exacerbated by population density.

These are custom built to run the cyc motor and even have a custom hub/cassette to handle the 5kw. They will be fine. 

The CoG isn't going to be meaningfully different from a Surron. I hoped it would be lighter than 75 pounds, but hey thats light enough to lift into a hitch mount tray (a Surron, starting at 125 pounds, not so much). 

Cyc has a model called the "photon" that only goes up to 2000 watts and isn't meaningfully louder than a normal ebike. That would be a better fit (and much lighter) in my opinion.

The sky isn't going to fall. Will people abuse trail access with these? Yes. Will people have accidents on these? Yes. But "normal" mountain bikers abuse trail acess too. Normal mountain bikers get into accidents with hikers too. 

IDK maybe I'm biased, 80% of the trails I ride allow motos on them already, and the dedicated mtb trails all have "no surron" signage already anyways.